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Between russia and the ukraine. >> and ukraine as a country and ukrainian individuals are pretty sophisticated about this? >> oh, yeah. and general petraeus highlighted this. when we think of insurgency, we often tend to think of kinetic use of weapons and explosives. i would argue you are likely to see not only that element in ukraine but the cyber capabilities that the ukrainians have i think it will be a really interesting cyber element to a potential insurgency that will grow as the russians...