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>> i think that the conversation changed after june when these releases came out. and the continuing news stories, i think, just pose a question to our democracy and to the other democracies in the world. how do we have freedom and democracy and rule of law and fight a dangerous world? those are tough debates. i think those debates are happening now. >> would we be having those debates without snowden and should amnesty be on the table for him? >> i think we would not be having the same debates ...