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the summer of 2020, looked at the polls, saw that his guy was losing, that donald trump was losing. and said you know what, we're just going to declare victory, and say we won anyway. so this is the guy who was in on the idea beforehand, that they were just going to lie, because they knew they were going to lose. now you've got him talking with a cop, a former cop, about killing two democratic representatives. will there be any fallout from that? >> well, i don't know. i mean, i don't know what you can do to roger stone. if he is just talking about, it i don't know that it suffices for a conspiracy or anything. you need an agreement to put somebody in jail. but it just goes to show. i mean, this is real, the fact that we can even think it's real tells me tells you a lot of the people who surround donald trump. i mean, donald trump himself is a man without any moral compass. he is a man without conscious, he is a man without remorse, he is a man without empathy. and if the only thing he cares about is himself. and, he is surrounding am shellfish with people, an increasing number of people,
invalidate the results. does that sound familiar? he ran around afterwards saying it was rigged. take a second to imagine what it would look like if nikki haley or someone else actually were to start beating donald trump for the nomination this year. if we started seeing some surprises, right? that has happened before in american politics. it is almost impossible not to imagine a situation in which you end up with a scene that looks like january 6th outside the republican national convention. right? if trump starts losing, what is going to happen? play that out. they all have, they all understand what they are dealing with. it's under those conditions. those are the conditions under which we are having this contest, this election for the republican nominee. whatever happens on monday in iowa and later in new hampshire and south carolina and super tuesday, you just cannot separate trump's performance from these ever-present, deeply ominous, anti-democratic
i remember something alex vindman once told me after his testimony. when we are comparing notes about how he wished more people had testified in trump's impeachment, he said, miles, intimidation works. and he is right. it works. and they know it works. trump knows it works. i was really struck by something, chris, in your opening remarks tonight about how a lot of these votes are facing threats. and they don't talk about it on the record. anwhen i talk to a lot of people who've been in these circumstances and they don't even go into the detail of how serious it is. i think it is important, though, when people are willing to share those things. i will give you an example, chris. just last weekend, i had to buy another gun. because we are worried about threats from maga stalkers and concerned we have not armed ourselves sufficiently in every circumstance we might be in. and that is years after i came forward against donald trump. and it is still happening. why? because they are so fearful of
it is disruptive, bad for their families. but it's not going to stop them from doing what they are doing. i think there are people in republican politics where it will. i think the romney point about, it i think that again, i don't want to take away from the fact that trump genuinely has this organic, this real appeal. i think he would be probably winning even without this aspect of his politics. but again, this aspect of the politics colors enough that, like, i just think it is difficult to disentangle his ability to reclaim his position as front runner from that force that is sort of just offstage. >> chris, it doesn't stop people from coming forward. i agree with your point and that folks who've already come out, there they are out there. but i've had folks in the backyard sitting around the bonfire that were senior trump officials, who have not come forward, who have said, i just don't know if i want to go through what you guys have gone through. it works. the intimidation works.
enough play. that is the tools of -- the coercion, the threats of, violence trump and maga movements employ that are constantly shaping the space in which the race is itself contested. i talked yesterday about this, the bomb threat at the home of the judge in trump's civil trial, and how it was not an isolated incident. it wasn't just business as usual. from the maga bomber to the cincinnati fbi shooter, remember that? a guy showed up at the fbi after indictments, the death threats, the fake emergency calls against investigators and prosecutors in the past week. judges, election officials. there has just been a constant stream of threats of violence and actual attempts of violence against people that have tried to hold donald trump to account. the intimidation hangs over all his endeavors, it's a big part of his strength. but the place where this kind of politics is the most effective, the most acutely present is within republican party circles.
do you remember this? we learned this a few months ago. senator mitt romney revealed he had to spend $5,000 a day on protective services, security after january 6th. in fact, as he later revealed to -- in a biography of romney, one republican congressman confided to romney he wanted to vote for trump's second impeachment but chose notoet out of fear for his family's safety. when one senator, a member of leadership, said he was leading towards voting to convict, the others urged him to reconsider, you can't do, that romney caught someone saying. think of your personal safety, think another. think of your children. the senator eventually decided they were right. this extends past people that are at the upper echelons of political power, past politicians or public officials. more than just and they have been subjected to this. election officials and even rioters, just people with opinions, conservative writer and trump critic david french has recounted how they went after him. >> in individual calls, i say
-- this is particularly true for people whose life's -- constituents or conservatives and neighbors who are trump devotee, so this extremism, this acceptance of coercion, political violence to the threat thereof of terror, of just insane harassment as a tactic. it is really powerful. i think it is fair to say, i really believe this, and that it is completely subverted the ability of the republican party themselves to genuinely run a free and fair election within their own party to choose their own nominee. because not only is there this ever-present threat, you know, everyone in the upper echelons of the party also understands that donald trump will never accept defeat. you are having a contest with a guy who is he going to accept a feat? they understand it because of january, six but they understand it before. that they understand it be because of 2016. when trump lost the iowa caucuses and reportedly pressured state republicans to
trump is polling at 54%, or 30 points ahead of haley. his closest challenger, not even close enough to say it's not even close. the only poll that matters is the one on election day, as we like to say here. but there is already a lot of discussion about sort of how we got here. on the threshold of this moment. and there is a lot of factors that have brought us to this point in which trump is leading by 30 or 40 points. there is the terrible, i mean truly almost historically terrible campaign of ron desantis, who once looked like a formidable challenger. there is the growing desire in the republican electorate for authoritarian politics. that is fueled by this ever sort of radicalizing conservative media industry. there is, of course, the complete personal cowardice of republican leaders, who could have voted to convict trump during impeachment and we wouldn't have this problem. it would also have brought interference to trump all along. all those factors are here. but one factor on the eve of this first contest, there is one factor i think does not get
consolidating support because of it. joining me now is cornell belcher, democratic pollster and strategist and msnbc political an l. kimberly atkins stohr, boston globe columnist and cohost of the sisters in law podcast. and george conway, conservative attorney and contributing writer for the atlantic. thank you all for being here. so, i mean, the point being, cornell, that donald trump should be worried about going to jail. he is worried about going to jail. i think that's all he cares about, honestly. he doesn't have to were aabout the politics, trump has figured out outlets won't cover his campaign rallies but they will cover him being in court, so campaign rallies are out, court rants in. hogan gidley who works for trump, if donald trump were in iowa this week, he would suck all the oxygen out of the state and the race. but he has to go into court.
hampshire either. he's focused on criminal and civil court. donald trump's principal purpose in life, his entire focus right now, is not becoming the leader of the free world or making america great again or whatever other bs he tells himaga fans at his rallies. it's staying out of prison. that is the purpose of his politics right now. that is the end goal. sorry if you thought it was making your lives better or safer or more prosperous. that is what he wants for himself, for sure. along with making sure he can sleep soundly at night without the fear of hearing the clank of a cell door closing behind him. by now, we know how trump reacts to adversity. former republican congresswoman liz cheney shared in her recent memoir how then speaker kevin mccarthy told her the reason he ran down to mar-a-lago for that secret rendezvous three weeks after trump left office is because trump was really depressed about losing the