troops leave behind. mass graves, torture chambers and so on. but we were already aware of, say, a concentration camp in donetsk, so called izolyatsia. you know, i really wanted to tell people to pay attention to this forgotten war. and i realize that it is seen as a very complex war. people find it really difficult to separate the russian propaganda that claimed that it s an internal conflict, that it s just ukrainians fighting amongst themselves, and the reality and the factual information on the ground. so, i thought using the sort of individual personal story, universal story of grief, might be a way to explain what this war is about to to the general public. it s intensely personal. and it s of course, it s a human story that resonates with so many people. i just wonder whether in your grief, you could also, if the word exists, humanize the enemy, because the enemy that volodya had been fighting was by and large an enemy
and also, gave the energy to do more. and to fight back harder. knowing that i would never want this to happen to either me or anyone i love. that s the interesting part about it. this wasn t some distant place. it s 15 kilometers from where we are now. this is a suburb of kyiv. but i did i have found that the resolve that we encountered last year, when this began, has not weekend at all amongst ukrainians. no and why would it? i mean, we know right now, who we are dealing with. during the months, during the month of march when the regions of bucha and those villages around kyiv were occupied, we were only contemplating what we would be finding their. we knew exactly that there would be many killed. we knew that builds buildings would be destroyed. we suspected that torture chambers were set up. and all of our suspicions came alive. we saw the naked bodies of
they ve discovered torture chambers, makeshift jails, thousands of ukrainians have been deported to russia, including ukrainian children, who ve been separated from their parents. we don t even know the full numbers. it s many thousands, it maybe up to ten of thousands. knowing that this is what happens on occupied territory, knowing this is what happens on their land, ukrainians can t not fight. the amazing torture, the amazing destruction on the territory they ve occupied is something we are going to learn a lot about over the next few years. it explains both why the ukrainians fight and it also explains why it s going to be so difficult to end the war. all right. the atlantic s anne applebaum, the washington post david ignatius, and eileen cooper with the new york times. thank you all so much for being with us. our next guest was with president joe biden when he made the historic trip into ukrainian capital of kyiv
russia s occupation, and why it is at stake here for not only that ukrainians but the world. there are real elements of democracy in ukraine. the russians have sought to crush that, destroy it. every liberated territory, they ve discovered torture chambers, makeshift jails, thousands of ukrainians have been deported to russia, including ukrainian children, who ve been separated from their parents. we don t even know the full numbers. it s many thousands, it maybe up to ten of thousands. knowing that this is what happens on occupied territory, knowing this is what happens on their land, ukrainians can t not fight. the amazing torture, the amazing destruction on the territory they ve occupied is something we are going to learn a lot about over the next few years. it explains both why the ukrainians fight and it also explains why it s going to be so difficult to end the war. all right. the atlantic s anne applebaum,
zelenskyy showed us it s possible to have a muscular patriotic defense of liberal values. and anne, we talked about the ukrainians fighting spirit, and how they keep pushing back against russia. the stakes, as you ve written, it s existential. talk about the brutal nature of russia s occupation, and why it is at stake here for not only that ukrainians but the world. there are real elements of democracy in ukraine. the russians have sought to crush that, destroy it. every liberated territory, they ve discovered torture chambers, makeshift jails, thousands of ukrainians have been deported to russia, including ukrainian children, who ve been separated from their parents. we don t even know the full