The recent test of a u. S. Missile has heightened alarm among anti Nuclear Activists that a reckless new arms race threatens humankind the launch of the modified tomahawk missile on august the 18th came just 2 weeks after the u. S. Formally withdrew from a missile treaty with russia that was after 32 years but the actions of other countries are also fought with risk analysts say that a recent radioactive explosion in northern russia is a sign that more sco is developing new weapons that can evade a Missile Defense and differences between Nuclear Armed india and pakistan over kashmir have jangled nerves across south asia what can activists do to convince the World Leaders to abandon the bomb for more were joined today by Cicely Thompson williams hes executive director at beyond the ball thats a Grassroots Campaign to prevent nuclear or from geneva we have bit trist fin executive director of the International Campaign to abolish Nuclear Weapons or i can. The campaign won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2017 and action of a night is a Founding Member of indias coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and peace he joins us from new delhi and everybody it is really good to have you here this is not a conversation is on top of the headlines right now but many of our own Like Community feel that it should be take tristen for instance tristen guy yet heres how she feels we should start a conversation have other. People today are facing so many existential crazies that its really hard to ask them to focus on just one but at the end of the day Nuclear Weapons already are not just one issue it will cripple our climate as soon will Nuclear Exchange will put us into a clear winner and one person gets to make that decision so to me thats just the entity this is of democracy but the problem is that these issues dont get talked about enough theres such a lack of awareness that thats really the only very or to getting people involved no matter how old they are bitches if you found that theres a lack of awareness with your work as youre trying to engage people around the world to be aware of where our nuclear arms are what danger they may pose to us yes i mean i do think that there so a lack of awareness but its not really surprising given us so many issues right now that requires our attention and the fact is that most people do nor what new to us are they know theyre bad thing or the Mushroom Cloud so i think its really its more my license the biggest problem is that people feel disempowered people feel like they cant really affect this issue and i think thats the biggest misunderstanding right now on this issue so see im just looking here at the estimated Global Nuclear warhead that tray and looking at the countries you have them United States the u. K. France israel pakistan russia india china north korea now should we look at this map and be terrified. Yes i think we should be i think that its healthy for humanity to understand the risk that were facing with Nuclear Weapons and looking at the hot spots that we find in the world there are Nuclear Weapons and almost all of them so i absolutely think that we should be terrified but i think we also should turn that into action and i think as as beatrice noted the travel and just that people dont know that they can have a voice they dont know that they can play a role in changing the system actually you know very well about what it means to have a voice you have been campaigning for a new country someone meant for so long we really appreciate your veteran voice in our conversation let me share with me some of the recent comments weve had as we said about doing the show this is most in baba he says Nuclear Weapons of course mass destruction like in japan have a shame that a sucky but paradoxically that can be a weapon of peace also especially when both countries a Nuclear Armed your response to that and Nuclear Weapons and start us from going to war willis is the old story about deterrence of the italians is worked. And deterrence is based on the idea of generality extreme fear if you want a symbol a simple simple one sentence definition of security through Nuclear Deterrence it goes like this its the irrational belief that charitable fear will somehow always ensure that your enemy will behave the way you want although you can never fully control the circumstances which will determine your enemys behavior its ridiculous in fact the reason why i say is that with so many reasons number one there is a logic of what is supposed to be a deterrent so you can buy those not all of it and that is that its enough to have whats called a 2nd strike capacity. That is just if youre a bully or use of Nuclear Weapons are those you have enough to get back and get what you want. But how does this explain what is up with since 45 and that is this is the norm was good enough weapons to blow up the world many times just looking at change just looking back at this map here you know you say 6 at 6000 Nuclear Weapons and more than 600 russians got more than 6 out why would you need more than 6000 children on a want to risk a head. I mean i think this is really goes to the point of the whole issue that this idea that threatening to mass murder civilians is somehow acceptable i mean of course you can always get people to do what you want by threatening terrible things with terrible consequences like bullies do but its not sustainable its not going to last and the consequences of nuclear war are so unimaginable so unspeakable that its not going to be worth it in the end and thats very hard to to prove the absence of something were seeing nuclear arms they go to war to each other weve seen really close situations like very recently and you know pakistan where we have these huge tension weve seen the military concert there escalate and Nuclear Weapons could be useful and i think also i want to really know just settling i can hold tight one minute says hes going to go ahead and you come in 2nd and i think one of the really critical factors here and beatrice you laid the groundwork for this is that people feel as though this is such an overwhelming existential threat that they just psychologically they just shut down right they dont know how to address it they dont know how to deal with it and so they just turn to other issues and there are so many other issues today to choose from that its very easy to not Pay Attention to this one because in reality on a day to day basis this isnt affecting people until it does right and then its catastrophic and its too late so i think from our perspective when we look at how we get folks to engage in Nuclear Advocacy we talk about ok youre. Issue whatever it is that really drives that passion in your heart whether its immigration or in Climate Change or womens rights today is womens equality day and so we know that there are these huge movements working on all these other issues ok those things are going to be negatively impacted should we have a Nuclear Catastrophe and it is part of the broader progressive space to say we need to protect all of that work by preventing nuclear war. Yes i was just going to say taking a virtuous is point the most likely use of Nuclear Weapons is not that one side because their weapons are suddenly deny or if theyre going to use that against the other the danger comes when theres a conventional conflict and thats why the India Pakistan situation is so dangerous because weve had conventional companies and what happens once a lot of mention is that theres always the possibility of whats called an escalation dynamic that is just a 2 sided start off by saying were not going to use weapons reach a position where they get to thinking that maybe the other side is going to use it therefore i am going to use that and tensions escalate so the game have started up and not wanting to use it they need to position when it becomes very serious and in practice in the 1999 conflict between india and parts on both sides prepared to use it the 2nd point which is all question about deterrence which is just what the point is that they just said very correctly that this is a counterfactual how do you explain something that has not happened. Let me just write the question you were just doing this as well because our commission was i wanted to be part of this conversation here this is fun i. C. J. From my says nukes keep everyone accountable but it is a tricky thing suffering government should have them not unstable countries i think were witnessing right now and i definitely change what countries may be stable and unstable i say no more pictures just go ahead i mean this is the thing right i mean we think that some people are responsible enough to have these weapons and its ok if they have it but others will be really dangerous. And i think thats a really dangerous way to look at the issue because if some people have it others will always have it and who is responsible is extremely subjective today and i think that what really has it also talked about was that this is an issue thats so connect to other issues this is really about power the people have made Nuclear Power to do Something Special like its a technical issue its not its about power and on. And primitive and there are some countries that have taken the power to dominate the rest of the world and say that you have to listen to us or to do what we want and this is the Nuclear Moment as a sort of like a Justice Movement about making it will everyone has the same right nobody should live under this bridge no longer have the power and all has the right no one is better the 2 nuclear arms states that have the biggest arsenals russian you know slaves are clearly not the most responsible government at the moment basis to make such a great point is something that dan so its online actually talked about he describes himself as a child of the atomic age this is what he says he has just got a new talk about being part of the Nuclear Disarmament news and its got a way too technical the general public doesnt cope well with shades of gray let me remind you like i am back to the 980 s. Some of the huge protests that happened a movement on is the Nuclear Freeze and you can see how engaged the public was around the world at the time have a look at the time has come. And they have come to speak of many things from bologna italy and beatrice nebraska at the gower japan and east harlem in new york city. A great in gathering people. Some to demonstrate. Some to make a beginning. Some to challenge. Some nonviolently to bear witness. But sharing a simple idea. Domme the madness of nuclear. Ceci there was so much energy back at that time people were genuinely thinking about how do i stop this how do i stop Global Leaders how can we do it. And progress wasnt how do you reinvigorate the movement for today well i think what we have right now is a reinvigorated movement around creating positive change and in general but its very diffuse right we have womens march and we have the sunrays movement and the work that theyre doing on Climate Change i think it is imperative that Nuclear Activists are integrating into these broader movements and really showing that this is an issue that doesnt stand alone i think with were finally at a point where society is beginning to see that all of these issues are interrelated because our system is fundamentally broken and so we need to address them through a system change together. That i had was that you know i yes i think on one hand when you talk about the Nuclear Freeze movement always remember that you and you knew your moments in europe were in fact even more progress in the United States that talked about Nuclear Freeze in europe and the e. N. D. Europe in your doctor about. What europe which of course is but strong the other point with celebrex i think is very very important what is the lesson that we can learn from these remarkable moments and you and i just i mean in europe and in japan the seventys and eightys and that is that cannot be the basis for a very long struggle right. You know there was fear there i mean that gave rise to a great sense of what was there should we have to connect and he knew theres still going to be just and also such as we have to connected positive notions of justice and i suggest that for example 2 things have been mentioned earlier with betty betty. Actually that the existence of humanity which is the ecological devastation and the question of. Weapons and you also connected with us which is very important we live in the world which for the 1st time in Human History theres little blue scarce resources and yet all but 2 and a half 1000000000 people who knocked out basic needs and you have the most incredible inequalities of wealth and problem which under which of course undermines democracy and all those that dont so i think these 3 things have to be connected and you have young people connected to legal logical moves and your brothers are very much. And so on and we have to get. Beyond the National Framework you have to develop and promote a sense of internationalism even as you start to. Like that i want to build on that because i think here in the u. S. We have a very unique situation compared to the Global Movement on this issue and i think one of the things that really has been a keystone of that is that people are terrified of donald trump having his finger on the button right and so the fight in many ways has become lets get Donald Trumps finger off the button and i think thats a distraction from the actual situation which is that the system is broken and we hes just a symptom of it his ability to start a nuclear war if he wakes up in the middle of the night and wants to new current gains as recently happened. That is really just a symptom of a system that absolutely as for ok and there is no reason that one person should have the Sole Authority to launch a Nuclear Weapon just because they they feel like that some of the ways they you know actually. Connecting with people just reminding them about this is the organization beyond the bomb on twitter saying this guy has sold our t. To launch a Nuclear Strike grimace and then one more back here which is that johnson is the chief executive of global 0 and he this graphic here can trump get us all killed in a nuclear war yes red yes but in blue that is disturbing and i also want to bring in one of our community who was talking about who has responsibility which countries have responsibility and katherine here feels responsible i think should be at the u. S. s feet have a listen have a look as much as north korea has to nonis with Nuclear Crisis i believe in parity for the United States to become a leader in the global into. Being the 1st and only country to have used Nuclear Weapons new hes rich in our society so as we continue to advocate for Nuclear Disarmament in countries like north korea who have been as you knew 20 to 30. Compared to our roughly 6000 United States was a moral responsibility to lead by example to honor its treatments and to resist stiring into another arms race as were seeing when i was shooting. Bettas you pick up on that as an International Organization it takes everybody but the idea of the u. S. You broke it you fix it philosophy i think its i mean obviously the United States and russia are the biggest Nuclear Armed states they have the biggest arsenals but i do think that we need to stop focusing on just some countries because again those people in the hall its out of our hands how am i supposed to empower trump or putin they dont listen to me and i think that one of the things that weve been working on is to get all the governments in the world to take steps and take action and make commitments of this because if you think about it other issues if you want to fight racism its not just a problem of kook you can its a palm of everyone its about the inappropriate jokes about our prejudice it is about all the structures in society and the structures of this wouldnt go up and as well our banks keep investing in Nuclear Weapons producers our universities are involved in the new Weapons Research for example we are governments in europe are exercising with Nuclear Weapons together with the United States for example there are so many more parts to the problem so i really