The president of france says that nato is brain dead and that terrorism is now the enemy of the not russia and the neo mccall wants his criticism to be a wakeup call for the military alliance so what does it mean for nato future an organization the us president also once described as obsolete this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im Adrian Finnegan after world war 2 and facing a rising threat from the soviet union a group of european and north american countries banded together and signed up to the north atlantic treaty they believed a collective defense was the best way to ensure future peace in the is that followed the organizations membership and goals expanded there are now 29 countries committed to protecting the security of data as members on the alliances 70th anniversary some a questioning its effectiveness just weeks after calling nato brain dead frances president Emmanuel Mccraw but the organizations boss for talks in paris and as Erasmus National buffalo reports from the french capital. It was a longer handshake than usual for the french president it seemed to be a sign that emanuel was in a conciliatory mood as he greeted nato secretary general at the least say only a few weeks after he described the military alliance as brain dead but if you install timberg had hoped for an apology or a retraction he didnt get one as mike ross stood by his claim that nato lacked direction because some of the questions i ask are open questions that we have not resolved peace in europe. Treaty the relationship with russia the subject was talking who is danny so injuries or decision lets not negotiate cost sharing a burden sharing maybe we needed a wake up call if you permit english expressions stoltenberg said nato members often had different opinions but that didnt mean the alliance has no future so the policy is that while questions are d being asked about the strength or the transatlantic bond north america and europe are dream or together than we have done for decades its clear that my comment that nato is brain dead didnt go down well with stoltenberg certainly shaken up the alliance and focused minds on coming up with some new ideas germanys foreign minister has suggested that a group of experts from outside nato could be created to review the organization some analysts say such a move would be constructive it was war in ukraine theres a huge problem in middle east their war in syria iraq or iran is behaving differently so this is something very useful and its much better to discuss the problem together with experts inside the alliance than than criticizing the alliance and. Your party. Lines. Next week nato leaders meet in london for a special summit to markets creation 70 years ago during the cold winning it was a time when members agreed on their aims and who was the enemy today its leaders are politically poll. The security challenges have changed nato might not be at deaths door yet but most members now expose concedes that for it to survive successfully it needs a fresh approach to such about law ill just sirrah paris meanwhile france and fellow member turkey a locked in a war of words ahead of next weeks nato summit and cross says that ankara put nato mission at risk with its recent military operation in Northern Syria but turkeys president says that mccraw doesnt understand the situation just pick the security didnt but. I respect the security interests of a turkish fellow who has suffered many terrorist attacks on its soil but one cannot on one hand say that we are allies with respect to this demand else all the dirty and on the other hand put itself in the place of a military offensive done as a fait accompli which endangered the action of the coalition against Islamic State which nato is a part of claiming commitment to collective security is not enough you must show it a Real Alliance is about actions and decisions not words so i wish to have a real discussion between allies and our concrete engagements in the fight against terrorism in the sahara as in the levant region the military intervention carried out by turkey in northeast syria has brought up real questions which must be tackled. All right lets bring in our guests for todays discussion joining us now from paris john locke law and International Law consultant and professor at the University Institute of pius via skype from santander for reese. Chief Strategy Officer at rasmussen global and former director of policy planning at nato and from ankara were joined by use of well about a security analyst and retired colonel gentlemen welcome to you or john lets start with you did nato need a wake up call as maclaurin writes when he says that the organization is brain dead. Yes hes absolutely right and did he return to the theme because the braindead remark was made 10 days or 2 weeks ago and he returned to the theme only only recently. And said that he had he was very pleased to have raised this issue and to put it on the table and he asked the question which really is the ultimate question and its an ultimate question because a nato doesnt have the answer the question is whos the enemy michael said whos the enemy is it russia is it peace in europe is it turkey who is the enemy and because it nato is unable to answer that question it is like a bad scene from earth the theater of the absurd its 6 characters or 29 characters in search of an author theyre people whove lost the plot they need a new plot they want to plot because they want to justify their existence but they dont have one military alliance only makes sense if you know who you are allied against a nato doesnt freeze enemy is the kurds polands enemy is russia and the United States and europe have a have different views on who is the enemy. In the south and does nato have a future can europe forge ahead on its own in terms of security without the u. S. And turkey well let me 1st strongly disagree with jonathan i guess were going to debate saw for the sake of it and the needle guards have clarity about what there is what are the biggest threats the alliances face it and if you just look at the past few years you know which power is invited a european country like ukraine which are asked latest new type of resized right at the heart of europe straight to europe in general terms which power has been looked at slides and military members that are against International Norms and groups that. Its russia so in that sense i mean media is basically on twitter threat come from and it doesnt actually nearly 9 at least when there was a needle that the middle east made a terrorism and say states pulls a reality threat but the reality is actually trance a mom some countries has always blocked nato plane more active both political but also over asian abroad in the middle east so i think the matter is right its always one feature of a wakeup call but i think we also have to look at our own little bit each and every year france has many considerations when it comes to its traditional position it needs a chair and i know you want to come back on that ill let you let you do so in just a moment but lets bring in yourself 1st of all from ankara turkey still committed to nato or is it drifting away from the alliance and the west i mean what sort of an Alliance Partner is it whatever it takes Strategic Decisions without consulting its allies and buys russian surface to air missiles ok to tell the truth we can define after the call for the threat is very easily in the name of security understanding the new threat is terrorism the new threat is the me gratian flow and the refugees the new threat is the russian aggression in italian disasters and all saw the failed states especially in the middle east and then you take a look at the turkeys position it is very clear that turkey is fighting it all kind of terrorism inside the middle east on the ground which paul against and not for allies more than 3000 member sort of that and all saw all of this sharing information about the terrorist activities inside the middle east and you know very well that including french they do not even accept their citizens who fought in the name of their middle east that mr trump has on the line for many times that European Countries including france should take the risk. Possibility and should accept they are still suspect to their country and put them on trial saw for this reason against fighting against terrorism turkey is committing what he has promised so far be to clear numbers that he can observe the other issue is that me gratian and the refugee crisis is one of the most important issue that we should act together with the nato and let me remind you that turkey is hosting almost 4000000 syrians inside to discomfit and more than 1500000. 00 refugees who migrate to turkey from and other parts of the world including africa including afghanistan pakistan and turkey off we shall assign the re admission agreement be to European Union so no one can blame turkey in order to not cooperate against the refuges because the numbers that i am providing is very clear to everyone ok other issue is that the russian aggression russian aggression it is very important i should talk about this the russian aggression is also very important turkey clearly supports the Ukrainian Government against russia and also clearly stated that turkey is a against all kind of occupation inside cream off we should the declared is to russia and to the ukraine for this isnt by knowing the last facts that we cannot put turkey to any other side while we are not even excepting one refugee and we are not putting our own steers or so forth in name of fashion and put them on trial for this isnt lets consider it the reality is youre a want to give john a say which i will do in just a moment as you talk about russian aggression why then to turkey by this russian surface to air Missile System very very nice question there nice question turkey has already requested from the United States in order to buy pats Missile System because turkey has a soft spot of air Defense Systems but including United States. The European Union countries not all of them provided to sell turkey a defined beside a system at mr trump in did you just pass on at the meeting clear to state that that turkey request that to buy dead the patent messiah system but they didnt throw out so they want day event and bought the s 400. 00 systems in order to. In order to close the gap in the air Defense System and focus clearly says to the french and italy all saw ok are ready to cooperate to produce and right to buy their franch and american Missile Systems if they provide it to turkey to see you shaking your head a lot that should nato be helping turkey in its fight against what it sees as terrorists in Northern Syria but the others within nato regard as allies i mean how does nato square that circle. Well turkey has never asked for natos help in syria but i think the answer youve just heard makes it absolutely clear that turkey does not regard russia as an enemy its not conceivable to buy ed Defense Systems from someone whom you regard as an enemy turkey may condemn what it calls in my view wrongly russia russian aggression in ukraine but the facts of diplomacy are that turkey and russia Work Together on a number of issues including as it happens in syria so its just not true to say that russia is an enemy of turkey its not true fabrice a party to say that russia is considered an enemy by fronts president machen received president putin at the flaws in a council. For the g. 7 summit and he said im sorry i didnt interrupt you could you let me finish and he said that he wanted to build together with russia. Architecture of confidence in order to improve European Security and to solve other world crises thats not the language that you use when youre addressing an enemy you dont build an architecture of confidence with your enemy so things have moved on since whatever nato communique youre referring to and by the way on the 9th of december theres going to be a normandy format meeting between france germany ukraine and russia in which theyre going to try and sort out the ukraine again thats not the language that you use with an enemy so all this talk about russian aggression and russia being the enemy does not correspond to the political realities that have unfolded in recent weeks and if you try to pretend otherwise the nobody is going to believe you. Come back on that. Well i think a lot of. Quickness of action things that just start 1st and not use the word enemy because effete it characterize an actor and it puts kind of an absolute tag on it im talking about the behavior and thats why i talked about the threats and the threats of the past years clearly prompt our Nuclear Power quote russia that is actually flexing its muscle and its never who and putting pressure on the Nato Alliance so i never say that paris considers russia as an enemy i just say that nato of which france is a member has clearly stated over the past 5 years plus that the biggest threats facing europe today and the Alliance East prussia has behavior that is high disruptive and basically lend grabbing behavior which i guess we can all agree is not acceptable thats a 1st famous are going to thing is i think to talk about. The role of the format as a proof that russia is the friend of europe is if im not far fetched that nobody for my meeting use an important one its the 1st once in 3 years finally these are neither side of on how to sort of the conflict in numbers which eschewed 13000 ukrainians over the past 5 years but that doesnt mean its going to be so many times so this is a very populated situation and russia is not saying any sign a week during its military personnel in Eastern Ukraine what we did during its heavy weapon so i think its a b. B. Quick conclusion to say that now we dont good and russia is it is back in the form of those who have normal or acceptable or legal behavior ok at and on the question of whether nato should be in the business of fighting terrorism for braces as president maduro not as a peer to indicate he wants. Yeah absolutely i think i was one of those who shave for nato to play a more active role in the broader middle east and north africa for the simple reason that this is our neighborhood and this is now since the arab spring a very fragmented and a very unstable neighborhood and you cannot just ignore it better i can tell you that clearly many people agree with that but france among the few others think that it needs or at least was finucane until president michel made the statement that nato does not have or learning the wider middle east and north africa however here is a key question and this is really for the leaders to discuss next week in number what did it called terrorism because what you hear from you know the one when he talks about terrorism is a slightly different type of terrorism and type of actors when the french president talks about so i think this is where leaders need to use me but at least you say what do we think is me or do you just write if im that terrorism because if not its a too broad category and everybody will give different definition and well never agree on what to do exactly ok yes yes of turkeys foreign minister this week called president mccrone a sponsor of terrorism after the french president held talks in paris with the f. T. S. D. F. Spokesperson right now theres a void in europe he said meconis trying to be its leader but leadership comes naturally oh whats turkeys problem with france ok. In the visit to United States the turkish president already presented some cia documents that the if they have Spokes Person and that terrorist muslim bunny is cia records that he has committed many terror attacks inside turkey not from the perspective of turkey but from the perspective and it records off the cia for this reason except think those guys incite the sounds that. The palace cannot be acceptable turkey always extended it is condolences to Prime Minister level than the Charlie Hebdo attack has been acute and the Prime Minister of the world all the buzz on the streets of extent the congo since of the turkey so we should be very clear that if terror is very bad thing for us we should understand that it is also bad for the friends from this perspective if you do not provide a comprehensive approach fighting against terrorism be able now or be able to fight against terrorism my contre puppet little bit ago set that turkey is not collaborating with nato and the European Union countries especially the fight against terrorism inside syria that is totally not correct because i am giving the numbers 34th against and lost more than 150 soldiers and not realize 3000 bash members and you still count me that turkey is not collaborating with difference let me tell and i would like to remind also the headquarter off the on to dash correlation is inside turkey and turkey is pro i think huge support to the arm today ok let me also remind that my friend my friend john in parys is getting every nice sleep because of the turkish radar system monitoring inside russia 24 hours in a day so we should understand that turkey is together with the nato hitting all it is responsible it is so the should understand the problem from this perspective to respond to that briefly if you will and then this for the u. S. And turkey exactly the easiest of nato members to deal with politically at least to what extent is its president a crime now making france another or could ally. What it was what is what exactly does he want. Well thats thats how i started off the discussion he wants clarity he wants political clarity about what what nato is trying to do thats why i used the word enemy.