Keep everyone. Keep them away keep them together away uninfected and we saved millions of us and now were opening and were opening with a bang and weve been talking about the this is better than a v. This is a rocket ship President Trump has been criticized for comments he made over george floyd who was killed in Police Custody last month Kimberly Halkett is in washington with more well he was talking in the rose garden about the economy he also transition to the social unrest in the United States the cynically say that hes done more for the black community when it comes to jobs and other programs than any other president but it was this comment that really touched off a nerve take a listen hopefully george is looking down right now and saying this is a great thing thats happening for a country theres a great day for him its a great day for everybody this is a great day for everybody this is a great great day. In terms of equality now the problem with this 1st of all is that its a way he was speaking on behalf of a black man a black man who is now no longer with us given the fact that he had a white policeman kneeling on his neck and that was the cause of death according to the familys autopsy so this is not sitting well with the millions of africanamericans and others who are protesting on the streets for him to try and bring about change and racial equality or inequality do exist trying to bring about equality in the United States never is goes over very well when a white man speaks for a black man but given the fact that there is social unrest that is spread not just across this country but Canada Europe these comments are not being particularly well received as George Floyds family attends a Memorial Service for him in North Carolina the mayor of washington d. C. Has sent a message to President Trump and a very big one morial bowzer has renamed a street right in front of the white house a block wives matter plaza and how the slogan painted in huge letters along the road it was done to send a message at the citys stands with the protest movement it comes days after donald trump ordered the forceful removal of peaceful demonstrators who had gathered outside the white house in other news forces loyal to libyas u. N. Back government of qatar who know were lets cut if i have to last major stronghold in western libya have to his forces have been using the city as a launch pad for their offensive on the capital tripoli for the last 14 months on thursday Government Forces regain full control of the capital. Brazil has reported a new record of 1473 coronavirus deaths in the past 24 hours it now has the 3rd highest number of fatalities in the world overtaking italy this fight this beaches and parks in Rio De Janeiro have reopened as long as social distancing is being carried out by the public president joy of also narrow called any protesters opposing his agenda terrorists and delinquents and encourage Public Security forces to act swiftly against going beyond the limits of the law a protester in mexico has set fire to a Police Officer during a demonstration against Police Brutality and Police Protest of writing by the hearo on thursday after a new man was after a man excuse me was found beaten to death hours after he was arrested the construction worker was detained by police for not wearing a mask in public the u. N. Says more than 1300. 00 people have been killed during fighting in the democratic republic of congo in the past 8 months various conflicts are underway in the country involving a number of armed groups and Government Forces violence has forced more than half a 1000000 people to flee their homes in just 9 months those are the headlines head to head is next. From the bronx at vote in britain thanks. To the election of donald trump a teacher will govern our lay. People around the world rebelling against the law. And increasingly turning to the political extremes so what lies behind the recent rise in populism and authoritarianism. My guest tonight is an economist who blames the political establishment in her new book edge of chaos why democracy is failing to deliver Economic Growth and how to fix it she believes democracy is in crisis and has some pretty controversial suggestions for how to say im in the house and ive come to the oxford union to go head to head with economist and best selling author. Why she seems to blame democracy for falling Economic Growth and whether her plan to save democracy by giving some voters more power and influence than others could end up killing it instead. Tonight ill be joined by a pedophile author of the production of money and one of only a handful of economists who correctly predicted the financial crisis jamie whyte director of research at the institute of Economic Affairs. And they form a new zealand politician and philosophy electra and jason pickel and im for apologist at the London School of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to Global Inequality and its solution. Ladies and gentlemen please welcome dambisa moyo. Business 1st book dead a cold wave when she called you the problem helping the foreign aid was actually making the poor a shes a former Goldman Sachs banker and explain sultan at the. Dummies are more welcome to advantage there. One of the central premises of your book is that the popular discontent that we see across the west right now for example the brics vote the election of donald trump the rise of populist parties is driven by the failure of governments to deliver Economic Growth yet many experts pollsters people who studied this stuff would say bricks it wasnt driven by economics trump wasnt elected by the poor or the left behind its a complete myth that had much more to do with culture and identity issues which you dont really address in the book well i dont carry on with my doctorate that i completed here at oxford you know a while ago isnt in economics and so i think very much see these issues a challenge through that lens im not dismissing that there might be other you know aspects and ill leave that to people who are focused on those areas to to make the case for that i am concerned about the economics and we do know that real wages have come down virtually every developed country over the past 30 years social mobility has declined income inequality has widened and so the threat of a lack of participation in the neighborhoods could people be simply given up on and work all these aspects have created and give them things like trump and bricks. Get that thats your prism and thats what specialism doesnt make it correct the majority of americans earning less than 50000. 00 a year voted for Hillary Clinton not donald trump well my vote is in the rust belt states who said the economy is the most important issue for the country went with hillary on bricks in income class were not predictors of vote in fact views of multiculturalism of feminism the Death Penalty was actually a greater predictor of peoples views on briggs let me let me clarify a couple of things so 1st of all you know a lot of what youve just said certainly culture issues around immigration which have been basically. Sort of put forward as the main argument for break that and for for the rights of trump and populism more generally across europe to me are masking a more fundamental problem which still has its roots in economics if people feel that their lives are improving their future generations lives on. Proving i would argue that we would see much more stability we have seen much more stability in those periods a good job than donald trump also one of the last from rich people the need to hold on people dont you wonder how do you hold it ill give you a juggler ill give you a start of a day wages ill give you a statistic that illustrates the story as you were aware of the general high level numbers that hillary won the popular vote by 3000000 if you take out the new york im not about the state just the metropolitan city of new york and if you take out the metropolitan city of los angeles not california donald trump won the vote by over 3000000 votes that is how split this country is people in new york city and in los angeles are essentially very liberal tend to be much more wealthy and tend to be deriving their welfare and in terms of their Living Standards but from a global societal and unlike you perhaps i take the view is no point in me making arguments that i have no basis in fact or knowledge to make you seem to treat growth as some sort of magic bullet and yet if you look at some of the biggest problems facing the world today problems you recognize in the book income inequality Climate Change more and more Economic Growth is not only fail to solve those problems many would argue experts would say it is in fact a driver of those very same problems would you accept i would not and i would not accept it because i think one of the key points that people tend to miss is not that we have not gained from a model where we have depended on growth we have failed to redistribute that growth in a way that actually enhances the lives of many people around the world if i think specifically of some of the examples of this there are many policies today that are should have short term gains particularly western societies but have very deep long term problematic consequences trying to give a good example trade protectionism the fact that the United States through farm subsidies and europe through the common culture policy have locked out the goods that are produced in places like africa and south america have essentially created an environment where we have not only created more and more and. People but weve also created a fed into issues of political instability im saying deal with the real world not your aspiration noble aspiration which is x. Men will grow if there are experiments more grow every january theyre putting out reports and saying the world is growing we know that i think the estimate for this year is that the 8 wealthiest people in the world have more wealth than the bottom so were in agreement that rose doesnt inequality in fact increase i was very clear i said that the point is not about growth the fact is that how we do we distribute that growth and on Climate Change you talk about the edge of chaos but what about Climate Chaos is an irresponsible to talk about Growth Growth growth given experts like Kevin Anderson the center for Climate Change research of said continuing with Economic Growth over the coming 2 decades is incompatible with meeting our International Obligations of Climate Change well theres a whole literature which obviously havent cited or perhaps youve not seen which is focused specifically on what we call green growth theres massive discussion around this and in fact you talk about china india china is quite a lead ahead in terms of trying to we of course there have you been there recently beijing has more solar panels than most of the other countries and they are i mean i could go as Environmental Protection index made formulated by your University Puts trying to 120 out of 180 countries in the world listen china is the 2nd largest economy in g. D. P. Terms its ranked number 100 per capita incomes terms this is one of the poorest countries on that metric the notion that somehow they should wake up and they have an economy thats functioning at the highest levels is absurd the United States even in the last 20 years theyve had cities where theres been mass pollution just flint michigan is not 20 years ago where they were polluted water and the notion that youre putting all this pressure on china which is still a nascent economy in many respects to me is 40 and russia you cited china things to use my real growth im just going to agree. You dont advocate for green growth i sure do many terms of climate having read my book just how my view on it might not be there is a question i gather that was you may have just learned it is a list of attorneys. So lets have a test on your book has a whole section ive mentioned multiple times in there 4 times the words Climate Change appear in this debate 4 times what pages out of 3 that i can give you the very very large its only 4 and so all im saying is that its great please do go home to me now tell me now though yes what is your position on growth and climate and summarize it for as innocent a well i as i said i think the framing is around green growth we have 90 percent of the worlds population that lives in the emerging markets 90 percent of those people including myself who comes from africa have been assured have been encouraged that we can live like americans live like british people you if you decide you want to go and put the genie back in the bottle good luck you want to go to the panel on this just before i do want one last question i must ask this to you you were working Goldman Sachs back in 2008 when. Their tenure you were there in 2000 and at the time of the financial crash that Goldman Sachs helped cause which killed growth many more are you really the right person to be writing a book about growth given the association with Goldman Sachs i dont understand the connection the question is if you work at institution youre part of the institution that did so much damage to the Global Economy and then you come in and said these are the solutions for growth the biggest hit to growth came from the banks and from Goldman Sachs you know what you know what youre exhibiting is a pure lack of understanding and how the Global Economy works. So let me just like let me if i mean. For you many governments not just this government in this country but also governments in the United States is a good example of this they have a clear and stated policy of cold housing for this is a policy where they deliberately encourage everybody to own a house it doesnt matter what your income is in your ability this is your going to just go down and say great im not to become was to blame were all to blame because we essentially we go many armed men have a special role to play i think to put a very simple question does Goldman Sachs have a special role to play they paid a 5000000000. 00 fine and said we. Institute. Pay fines im trying to help you become a bit more educated in this appeals. So to be understanding im not just saying that we all have taken responsibility and you want me to give you a one liner only your so does it only start to have a social responsibility you know theres no special responsibility ok lets go to the panel question. To join this very interesting discussion im joined by. The author of the production of money one of a handful of economists the newspapers often the ones to correctly predict the financial crisis what do you when you see hear the arguments about the importance of growth as as as presented by them these are both here and in the book what you have. To be so you said government should be making formulating Public Policy policy requires boundaries capital hates these Goldman Sachs hates these it wants to go where it wants to go and we can make the biggest profits and you are advocating essentially a globalized economy where boundaries wont matter where governments well thats where Public Policy will not have an effect because markets will decide and i find that that that is a really deep hypocrisy in that youre trying youre on the one hand trying to blame governments on the other hand you are mostly in markets making the most important decisions that affect millions of people across the world but yes id like to respond so what is absolutely clear is that i am a supporter of this idea of globalization the movement of trade in goods and Services Movement of capital but also the movement of people immigrant as an immigrant however however we know that what is defined and explained in textbooks does not actually happen in real life because Public Policy and imperatives and tradeoffs and real politic the fact that especially democratic governments want to win elections means that these things are not apply in real life jamie wants with us whos director of research instead of Economic Affairs the also a former new zealand politician philosophy lecturer david afterwards they were out of one of britains. Naturalist access anyone who thinks you can have infinite growth in a finer environment is either a madman or an economist. Well infinite of course not you cant have it but i really couldnt agree more with them the the era of globalization imperfect as it being has seen billions of people lifted from poverty its really been the most astonishing period of success in Human History in 18040 percent of the worlds population lived on todays money