Police department and try to figure out a new form of policing. Our city is a toxic relationship with many outlets Police Departments to Police Things as we wait and wait for yet. A new york citys mayor says hes focusing on the funding we will be moving funding from the n. Y. P. D. To use the mission to his and social services he didnt say how much but it is the latest sign that the demand to defund the police is gaining traction at least for Democratic Leaders the Trump Administration is defending the heavy Police Presence and its handling of mostly peaceful protests arguing there doesnt need to be widespread change i dont think you need to reduce the munity to to go a step backwards because that would result certainly in Police Pulling back i do not think that we have a systemic racism problem with Law Enforcement officers across this country do i knowledge that there are some Law Enforcement officers that abuse their job yes and again we need to hold those accountable us President Donald Trump is mocking the idea on twitter where he also announced the National Guard troops he sent into washington d. C. Will be returning home something the d. C. Mayor has been calling for and the president is facing more criticism from leading republic. With reports former president george bush wont vote for him and neither will mitt romney who took part in the protests we deploy suggestion racism we did many voices against racism that you are telling when you stand up and say the black wires matter and former top military leaders are also openly criticizing the president this is a moment as i said of moral clarity i think is very clear in the future whether we want to unify the country in a Political Division in the Political Division that has existed now for years or whether we want to continue to divide the country that is a choice that the American People have in front of them in the very near future on the streets calls for change weve many wondering if it will result in big changes in the november election. Where the movement in the u. S. A spa and solidarity in other countries racism protests have been held across europe some of the biggest were in the u. K. Including one in bristol where activists tore down a statue of a 17th century slave trader and threw it into the. Brazilians have also been demonstrating theyre angry at the governments handling of the coronavirus pandemic and these killings they say president john bolton iroh is a threat to health and democracy india is reopening places of worship Shopping Centers and restaurants despite announcing yet another record increase in new cases of covert 19 its economy has been hit hard since it imposed a nationwide lockdown officials in afghanistan say hospitals are running out of beds to treat cope with 900 patients the Health Minister is warning of a looming disaster as infections rise or more than 20000 confirmed cases but the government says it could be as many as a 1000000 cases in the capital kabul alone many people are ignoring lock down instructions to get to work and testing kits are in short supply. New zealand says its now corona virus free as its last known patient is fully recovered it hasnt reported a new infection now for 17 days it closed its borders in march and forced a Strict Lockdown the government says all restrictions except border closures been lifted this week Health Officials are warning that imported cases of the virus are still possible for those the headline is the news continues on aljazeera after head to head state in terms of water bottle. From the bronx at vote in britain. To the election of donald trump. Will govern our land people around the world rebelling against the. Uk. And increasingly turning to the political extremes so what lies behind the recent rise in populism and authoritarianism. My guest tonight is an economist who blames the political establishment in her new book edge of chaos why democracy is failing to deliver Economic Growth and how to fix it she believes democracy is in crisis and has some pretty controversial suggestions for how to say im in the house and ive come to the oxford union to go head to head with economist and best selling author dambisa moyo why she seems to blame democracy for Economic Growth and whether her plan to save democracy by giving some voters more power and influence than others could end up killing it instead. Tonight ill be joined by a pedophile author of the production of money and one of only a handful of economists who correctly predicted the financial crisis jamie whyte director of research at the institute of Economic Affairs. And they form a new zealand politician and philosophy electra and jason pickel and im for apologist at the London School of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to Global Inequality and its solution. Maybe the gentleman please welcome dambisa moyo. Business 1st book dead a cold wave when she called you the problem help. Foreign aid was actually very poor hes a former Goldman Sachs banker so. Welcome here one of the central premises of your book is that the popular discontent that we see across the west right now for example the brics vote the election of donald trump the rise of populist parties is driven by the failure of governments to deliver Economic Growth yet many experts pollsters people who studied this stuff would say bricks it wasnt driven by economics trump wasnt elected by the poor or the left behind its a complete myth that had much more to do with culture and identity issues which you dont really address and well i dont mean my doctorate that i completed here at oxford a while ago in economics and so i think very much see these issues a challenge through that lens im not dismissing that there might be other and you know aspects and ill leave that to people who are focused on those areas to to make the case for that i am concerned about the economics and we do know that real wages have come down virtually every developed country over the past 30 years social mobility has declined the income inequality has widened and so the threat of a lack of participation in the neighborhoods to people be simply given up on and work all these aspects have created things like trump and bricks and. Get that thats your prism and thats your specialism doesnt make it correct the majority of americans earning less than 50000. 00 a year voted for Hillary Clinton not donald trump when my daughters in the rust belt states who said the economy is the most important issue for the country went with hillary. Income class were not predictors of vote in fact views of multiculturalism of feminism the Death Penalty was actually a greater predictor of peoples views on break so let me let me clarify a couple of things so 1st of all you know a lot of what youve just said certainly culture issues around immigration which have been basically. Sort of put forward as the main argument for breakfast and for for the rights of trump and poppy. More generally across europe to me are masking a more fundamental problem which still has its roots in economics if people feel that their lives are improving their future generations lives are improving i would argue that we would see much more stability we have seen much more stability in those periods a good job than donald trump also one of the last from rich people the need to hold on people hold on the wall now if you hold it ill give you a juggler ill give you a start of a wages ill give you a statistic that illustrates the story as you were aware the the general high level numbers that hillary won the popular vote by 3000000 if you take out the new york im not about the state just the metropolitan city of new york and if you take out the metropolitan city of los angeles not california Los Angeles Donald trump won the vote by over 3000000 votes that is how split this country is people in new york city and in los angeles are essentially very liberal tend to be much more wealthy and tend to be deriving their welfare and in terms of their Living Standards from a Global Society and unlike you perhaps i take the view is no point in me making arguments that i have no basis in fact or knowledge to make you seem to treat growth as some sort of magic bullet and yet if you look at some of the biggest problems facing the world today problems you recognize in the book income inequality Climate Change more and more Economic Growth is not only fail to solve those problems many would argue experts would say it is in fact a driver of those very same problems would you accept i would not and i would not accept it because i think one of the key points that people tend to miss is not that we have not gained from a model where we have depended on growth we have failed to redistribute that growth in a way that actually enhances the lives of many people around the world if i think specifically of some of the examples of this there are many policies today that have have short term gains particularly western societies but have very deep long term problematic consequences trying to give a good example trade protectionism the fact that the United States through farm subsidies and europe through the economy. Culture policy have locked out the goods that are produced in places like africa and south america have essentially created an environment where we have not only created more and more impoverished people but weve also created a fed into issues of political instability im saying deal with the real world not your aspiration noble aspiration which is x. M. L. Growth the ox family border every january theyre putting out reports and saying the world is growing we know that i think the estimate for this year is that the 8 wealthiest people in the world have more wealth than the bottom so were in agreement that rose doesnt inequality in fact increase i was very clear i said that the point is not about growth the fact is that how we do redistribute that growth and on Climate Change you talk about the edge of chaos but what about Climate Chaos is an irresponsible to talk about Growth Growth growth given experts like Kevin Anderson the center for Climate Change research of said continuing with Economic Growth over the coming 2 decades is incompatible with meeting our International Obligations of Climate Change well theres a whole literature which obviously havent cited or perhaps youve not seen which is focused specifically on what we call green growth theres massive discussion around this and in fact you talk about china india china is quite a leader head in terms of trying to in the we of course there have you been there recently beijing has more solar panels than most of the other countries and they are 5 i mean i could go uns Environmental Protection index made formulated by Yale University puts china 120 out of 180 countries in the world listen china is the 2nd largest economy in g. D. P. Terms its ranked near number 100 per capita incomes terms this is one of the poorest countries on that metric the notion that somehow they should wake up and they have an economy thats functioning at the highest levels is absurd the United States even in the last 20 years theyve had cities where theres been mass pollution just flint makes michigan is not 20 years ago where they were polluted water and the notion that youre putting all this pressure on china which is still a nascent economy in many respects to me as for hardy russia you cited jonathan you still use my real growth im just here to order green. You dont advocate for green growth i sure do i mean i sure do many terms of time having read my book just how my view on it might not be there is a question i gather that was you may have just wanted to limit is less of a test or less of a test on your book as a whole section ive mentioned multiple times and there are 4 times the words Climate Change appear in this 200 multiple bit 4 times what pages out of 3 that i can give you the very title of its only 4 so all im saying is that its great please do go home to me now tell me now though yes what is your position on growth and climate and summarize it for as innocent as well as i said i think the framing is around green we have 90 percent of the worlds population that lives in the emerging markets 90 percent of those people including myself who comes from africa have been assured have been encouraged that we can live like americans live like british people you if you decide you want to go and put the genie back in the bottle good luck you will go to the panel on this just before do you want one last question i must ask this to you you working Goldman Sachs back in 2008 tell your is actually worked there when you were there in 2000 and at the time of the financial crash the Goldman Sachs helped cause which killed growth many more are you really the right person to be writing a book about growth given the association with Goldman Sachs i dont understand the connection the question is if you work at institution youre part of the institution that did so much damage to the Global Economy and then you come around said these are the solutions for growth the biggest hit to growth came from the banks and from Goldman Sachs you know what you know what youre exhibiting is a pure lack of understanding on how the Global Economy works. So let me just let me if i mean. For you many governments not just this government in this country but also governments in the United States is a good example of this they have a clear and stated policy of cold housing for this is a policy where they deliberately encourage everybody to own a house it doesnt matter what your income is and your ability this is your going to just go down and say im not to become was to blame. Were all to blame because we essentially many men have a special role to play i think to put a very simple question just Goldman Sachs have a special role to play they paid a 5000000000. 00 for him and said we. Institutions pay fines im trying to help you become a bit more educated in the severe. So to be understanding im not just saying that we all have taken responsibility and you want me to give you a one liner only your solo does only start to have a social responsibility you know theres no special responsibility lets go to the panel. To join this very interesting discussion im joined by. The author of the production of money one of a handful of economists the newspapers often the ones to correctly predict the financial crisis what do you when you see the arguments about the importance of growth as presented by them these are both here and in the book what you have. To be so you said government should be making formulating Public Policy policy requires boundaries capital hates Goldman Sachs hates these it wants to go where it wants to go where can it make the biggest profits and you are advocating essentially a globalized economy where wont matter where governments wont matter where Public Policy will not have an effect because markets will decide and i find that that is a really deep hypocrisy in that youre trying youre on the one hand trying to blame governments on the other hand you are mostly in favor of markets making the most important decisions that affect millions of people across the world but yes id like to respond so what is absolutely clear is that i am a supporter of this idea of globalization the movement of trade in goods and Services Movement of capital but also the movement of people immigrant as an immigrant however however we know that what is defined and explained in textbooks does not actually happen in real life because Public Policy and imperatives and tradeoffs and real politic the fact that especially democratic governments want to win elections means that these things and all and. Pli in real life jamie whites with us who is the director of research at instead of Economic Affairs the i also a former new zealand politician and philosophy lecturer dave david after mr david out of i want to britains great naturalist says anyone who thinks you can have infinite growth in a finite environment is either a madman or an economist with the. Internet of course not you cant have it but i really couldnt agree more with them the the era of globalization imperfect as it being has seen. Billions of people lifted from poverty its really been the most astonishing period of success in Human History in 1840 percent of the worlds population lived on todays money 2. 00 a day or less today its about 8 percent i think and its coming down that is a fantastic achievement which we s