Well i mean you and i was about you dont go to war again both sides blame each other for the fighting on the border come there decades of animosity the result this is its a story. Hello and welcome to the program on iran come on its a conflict with roots dating back to the collapse of the soviet Union Armenia and azerbaijan have been in dispute over the new going to cut about region for decades its recognized internationally as part of azerbaijan but controlled by Ethnic Armenian forces there war ended in a cease fire in 1994 but theres been regular battles near the border ever since both accuse each other triggering the latest artillery bombardment and drone attacks north of no going to cut back fighting since sunday has killed at least 16 people mostly soldiers on both sides but at least one civilian to as aversions president has sacked the foreign minister accusing him of meaningless negotiations with other media robin forestay walker reports. Large crowds of protesters demanding the government declares war on media some demonstrators managed to Enter Parliament early on wednesday and were dispersed. The crowds are highly unusual in tightly controlled azerbaijan an indication of the National Mood was. An army general was one of 11 as ery servicemen killed in 3 days of fighting on the border with armenia the armenian government reports the deaths of 4 personnel. The latest fighting is north of the disputed territory of nagornokarabakh internationally recognized as part of azerbaijan its controlled by Armenian Forces some 30000 people died in the regional war between the former soviet republics in the 1990 s. As a by john has accused armenias Prime Minister nicole passion yan of undermining longstanding peace talks chaired by the socalled o. S. C. E minsk group on wednesday a lol in the fighting allowed monitors to observe damage to civilian homes. I mean years Foreign Ministry told aljazeera that deescalation was now the priority war is not an alternative there is no alternative to the peace and certain marry me. And work towards the escalation and establishing an environment which helps an atmosphere which helps. Ease and we share favor stage. This is the biggest escalation since a 4 day conflict in april 26th seen that saw some 200 People Killed russia and iran have offered to mediate pataki says it stands with azerbaijan unless the renewed fighting can be resolved the risk of a wider conflict remains in 1st year walka aljazeera. Lets introduce the panel in these airy capital back who commands hygeia assistant to the president of azerbaijan and here of the capital of armenia are signing up their former advisor to our many as a Prime Minister and here in doha abraham fry at associate professor of conflict resolution at the Doha Institute a welcome to you all i want to begin in back who with. Youve been very clear the youve said that this is armenia undermining and thats the word youve used any peace treaties any negotiations when it comes to in the going to occur about what do you say that theyre saying to you and i also welcome everyone and actually army as a region conflict started with the illegal use of force by armenia acquiring number of car bombs and 7 and just on the regions of azerbaijan and physically are we going to territories are theres a military occupation of foreign media and i was aware john has a 1000000 more i. D. P. s and if you does answer since the meat ninetys we have a negotiation process and which continues and we happen to see why regime lets use when it is not a peace unfortunately we have an attendance here and armenian size i mean inside tries to hide its all behind the scenes where regime and to annex there is of other way john and we also see a little activities we also see a little settlement is it or quieter it is of azerbaijan and we also have been a little creamer of the negotiation process hasnt your final act and United NationsSecurity Council resolutions constitute a little political framework was a resolution of the council it which demands immediate unconditional and who is rule of harming you to terms are quite directories we also howard was in the music group ruled them out of the negotiation process so a concert is based on a step by step step by step it is allusion to the council this is a key element here is a visitor all of armenian troops from my directors azerbaijan a step by step approach and also return of azerbaijan an idea presented it used why did a certain years living as an idea piece. Exult from their moms was an oral concept as a negotiation process unfortunately when it came to power we had an expectation bad is going to toot cool feel different or pursue different political and gender resins in a previous and governments of armenia unfortunately we see where pushing on statements contradictory statements undermining their performance and also substance of the negotiation process armenia also tries to evade is responsibility for that occupation and aggravation they have committed against in azerbaijan and also d tries multiple field isnt even obligations was a music group process and its an undermining the process is a meantime its in a disrespect as a musical process and also a White International community and in general as a result of this conflict i always causes a question to my armenian colettes from the to this whom we havent a discussion what armenia has achieved as a result of the answer to that let me just say its not a question lets put that question to our son the current term hes in here of on the capital of armenia as a former advisor to armenia as Prime Minister its all your fault says our guest in dhaka what do you make of that. Well thank you very much for this opportunity i also want to welcome all of the of course our viewers and very interested in the region in fact quite surprised that are the folds talking about our faults now i dont actually understand how one can talk about faults when just about 5 minutes ago we did hear the foreign minister other budget threatening possible bombing of the Nuclear Plant in that area i mean were not talking about a number of kind of right now were talking about sarin our military who are talking internationally recognized borders of armenia what i want to make very clear this is not just another escalation when i mean yeah thats in fact this is a very clear and direct threat to democracy this is a spirit of democracy and this isnt a get attack against that marcy that were trying to build beyond we had in 2800 i mean you know it went through one of the biggest and the most major change its 3 recent history. This was a 2800 bell that revolution which brought about the most legitimate government in the country since the mid ninetys and we are undertaking a large agenda if we forms we have a very particular government here going through a lot of painful changes inside the country but the people and the countries in their neighborhood this body regimes since since seem to be quite nervous about what i have a feeling here what were seeing here is internal issues in azerbaijan that is triggering you to start and to figure out a create a not simply we dont means fueling i mean of all the up trying to do right its on public to actually draw attention or diverged from the real and the serious issues that we believe the country will have and had asked we had we had corrupt regime now it starts we know how it works we know how hard it is to be able to actually handle a regime like that however i mean yeah yeah democracy a country with a reformist government has no reason to attack and what were seeing from our answered by joe nickell hes there or from other agenda is how did things did 1000000 population so intimate relation the ridges into territory proper of armenia shouting and sending buttons and rockets already for 4 or 5 minutes what were saying and were committed and our foreign minister said you could very cute yes that were committed to the Peace Process we believe that the format of the negotiations where russia United States and france are quote chairing. The means group is the only implemented in the negotiations to continue constructive negotiations between the parties come back to negotiations table why are you referencing why are you sending but if youre going to continue with this language obviously youre going to receive an answer and response this is impossible this time lets talk about lets talk about the negotiations lets bring in our guest in. What youre hearing from your of is that i mean is on his way to being a beacon of demarc. Say in the region and actually its surrounded by despotic regimes such as yours that are making that more difficult as a base art has just sacked its foreign minister saying the negotiations were meaningless why arent you going back to the negotiating table principle of democracy i believe is in a lawsuit but i mean you can talk about an hour see how to also joined question else government bans and after words have been sacked and currently whats in a building in azerbaijan is an evolution of the dictatorship and also at the forum in your claims for the democracy and democracy doesnt come that ethnic cleansing and occupation too and as a country and whats going on internally in armenia and we see her entire political system is in crisis jordan at least early decisions and giant arms address the deficit in general description of the army a socalled revolution not a dictatorship and what they are is to use a recent incident what happened is a border area between army and azerbaijan is a year and hours or illustration of the hypocrisy of armenian governments persecute on one side or pointed it is of azerbaijan they took up arms in a piece from when i was a site on a deliberate manner as they act in a border area between 2 countries thats an army and also conduct that not tourist ethnic koreans in in that continent of europe after the 2nd world war i guess are we going to see billions and we also see in 2016 when armenia deliberately in a discriminate manner and act as a witness who really us is a wooded area whats irrational because from as always in a prescriptive youre claiming went away and has started it was a wouldnt have started militarily it makes sense for us a way john to Start Operation is a no want to carve out an area to liberate our occupied territories was in a sense to start an operations of the area but i know the answer curtis let you know as much as our spirit doesnt question let me ask you were approached by yes i was a you know i has. Said these negotiations are meaningless. In general were sooty years in which it is indeed an initiation process every time we see where armenian side tries to create an agility technical elements to a transit sponsibility one days events this change of karma and as they see this event we dont have in wyoming can use it as a piece next days event lets talk about confidence Building Measures my question is a dynamic you pointed it is of was a way john you cannot. Physically army an armed forces in this hold until it is a puzzle way john you have an estate responsibly that under International Law these are your troops and soon will have been a settlement is a conflict process is not deserving of the council it is not is wrong you troops are we can have a settlement as a process but. I will come back here in just one moment but i want to bring in our guest in doha abraham professor conflict resolution of the day are in sochi youve taken a close look at the role of both russia and turkey in this conflict to keep powers within the region that still havent managed to actually bring about a satisfactory resolution to the conflicts are they making more trouble. Or are they serious partners for peace between these 2 countries i think this is a very important question and its very important we look at the conflict not only from the lenses of a conflict that we are not mean or not as it began but from the wide that a lot of job situation regional situation and particularly the role of russia number one and also the reality russia is known as the be a major player in this conflict is a trying to manage the conflict between. Its former colonies in you know and that we know as a. Part of it and im sure is a major supplier of arms door hasnt be shared but also. A close ally with the media as been barred or. C. S. Door couldnt have secured that Treaty Organization that russia needs and i mean has been frustrated with not receiving that support that aspires to see from russia and national russias trying to manage this situation and theres also that in case theres all that shabby and sending these keeping and ward forces which would be seen as an Occupying Force as which what the answers are no concern of mine so it is definitively that i should or he is seriously impacting a conflict that when they do and also there is no security component between demeaning and duty as you know with that historical arrival react as the nickel. Conflict between the door partners and i mean you know from Security Point of view are seeing yourselves being sandwiched between 2 images as a regime. And duty and dont you already did not disappear door declare its position and support of azerbaijan saw that took ish wrong also as important and here we have also that dirty russia model emerged in the last few years of that induction of diction in syria and now will work in the government thats now dogs and now and now also theyre working together and leave. To come up with an arrangement and who last saw this could be then extended this conflict between and to be known as a region where russia and to keep could come plus together and try to manage and of course there is also always a concern about this external and that vision as to what extent that theyre really trying to resolve the conflict or to mean day in order to keep their interest and theres a jewish paula one on one 3rd lets bring a rome lets bring in theirs bring our guests and yerevan in back in because actually quite a Crucial Point they were intimate originally for the lets bring lets bring in her shortly but let me just ask you a question. Is the question i think your brother answer anyway how useful is the russian role how you saw the turkish role as a weapon as a strategy of Partnership Relations was a russia and the neighboring country and russia is also one of the quit your countries is a midterm hours away and has announced that theres a partnership and. You know that it wouldnt cause relations brussel of ties with the turkey but here is a professor also mentioned sharmeen in the relation that i was awake and no one actually seeking intimate its words in armenia armenia is also in a seeking enmity was other countries why isnt borders on the turkey was armenia close because in 1000 street when armenia launched by a commuter orphans of one its territory on our way john oquinn cabbage originally was a way john using his her i. Q. In the charter to cause us in order because innocent aggressor state and its owner is old of armies on occupational pulls about army becoming a so isolated country therefore we see rats in general turkey and russia can play it all full as it is a lot of the council of russia is also a member of the music group process and also sharing illusions baseball of the countries and historical answer the original what they are for now is a time for me a mix in a to say that is your choice i mean what you have achieved as a result of this conflict come to solve isolated country is a big demographic problems economic social challenges lets go lets get the opportunities its not occur. Everything that is. A son what is your response. Well. There is a speaker of former speaker of the Foreign Ministry probably an old white house if i dont know fisher like which is 5 i dont know but i can just with this rhetoric viewers and i want to i have to i have to make a couple of comments professor its not a conflict between turkey and armenia its the Armenian Genocide its political geography that were currently living in and of course big player its making deals and making the border its the levy leading the problem and it comes with it and that were caught up with whats created by Joseph Stalin and. Starting a letter to turkey is indeed part of this hes the only country in the big player in the region that has been directly backing there by john and its aggressive moves in fact the Foreign Ministry made a statement openly saying that it will be betting azerbaijan on any growth or start we expect possibly see a similar recipe behavior from 30 its not just possible role as a independent mediator is our question for us now is getting a lot of the accusations about the democratic process that democratic process i understand there. Are white afraid that the similar situation can come running as their project and this regime that exists in but who may have the same destiny as the clock to crack a question that we have not been yeah i know its going to be i dont its going to be tough and what would came around as a as a fact was state orchestrated then especially 2 days ago in but when i give a try to teach people who are patriotic im an awful big empire when a notion you refuse our nation for war in fact while its article went out. The side of us and resignation of your own cabinet mean birds who arent up to their perhaps your own parliament so my giving is that quoting one thing is not be all you can get. Things happen and you know theyre better democracy and the revolutionary process might end up coming to your art so be coaches that arent quite clearly understand that the article wasnt really i was a little orioles are examples of great games and i was away. On the air guns are at your the floor is yours please respond are you worried that youre about to be talkers and on the way i wasnt into a lot and soon i was away john it was always an interesting is in a stable and what in a people is a city its a had in a just cause and anger because as a way you know People Special i. D. P. s and if you use our time so the years they want to return back to their homes as a result of that occupational annecy or armenia and youll go on if they cant return to your homes lesbias in response ability armenia is in a country where there is an estate as well so will the poles at all as of occupation and as a Regional Power that went as a city and they demanded justice and also tired about certain years negotiation process goes on this is a music group process but it is of any practical result that isnt it icarus usually happens that region and you may also claims to have turkey in your constitution you have been a territorial claims against an authority and you are considering it as a part of the great armenia that is a narrative yet you are building your now youngsters and was at enmity towards your neighbors and you have recently your government your government i mean your previous government and you also part of the question in government and what it knew that. You are you know that he took the fall come into law well let me just ask it was originally let israel and our son as on the. Very quickly. As a vote on this table this is not about the fair of the government being toppled as you said what your response to that is very quickly. Well my feeling is that some of my colleagues say that i mean its Prime Minister actually it is more popular not their budget and then im here as a democratic leader im sure its not actually democracy its the human rights and aspirations for freedom of speech and other liberties that your seat isnt right now and this is the reason why do people are going to be out in the streets and we see youre our president yesterday has been talking about only a 150 people going to be coming volunteers to go to the war nor are we going to your people not want war what we want is to go back to negotiations and. I would have to make one more comment specially when it comes to the confidence Building Measures you together with your administration that kind of agree or better monitoring of the borders why are you refusing it nap youre now coming to me and accusing us of at that let us confidence Building Measures lets let money course along the border line lets have International PeopleInternational Observers more interest beyond the border and then we saw 100 years of conflict we did not talk about thats about the conflict lets talk about conflict resolution there are enough right in doha having heard the conversation here tonight between our guests and your of and in back who its clear that there are intractable entrenched positions here what can be done if turkey and russia can bring the 2 sides of the negotiating table what else can be done clearly its not down to the americans maybe the french is there an International Process so theres. Thank you we used to say about the conflict between the israelis and the policy as a piece of process process without peace but unfortunately in this conflict the peace of process is not nor p. Is not even theres not even a process so which is even worse the starting point would be action from the minsk group though as the main school that has been in this conflict since like the 94 and brought absolutely nothing no changes nor progress we need to look into the role of the misc group and to see on what guess and what business there are many are doing and maybe dont need to find them and it of this is a good rule in order to be. More effect than you can imagine how russia and the United States are going to make peace i mean the there is they have really bad relations between everywhere so i how are we expecting the russian and their uniteds theres that time at position to make peace and as and be sure and i mean we need to look into this also that duly that is that all governments between i mean and azerbaijan there definitely me a bit differently talk but they dont negotiate that negotiation process has proved to be pointless nor progress has been made either so we this is not the 1st the clash we had the clash in 2016 there whats wonderful to be awarded when that will but theres also been before that there are several docs took we need more meaningful dialogue between the 2 parties to engage and see as they log so they can we can hopefully look into this and i agree that confidence building bridges are very important because there are starting point but we cant stop there i mean this is that the wars the stump and made the united forward and not serious changes have been mia so i think engaging in a meaningful dialogue meaningful negotiation with the 2 parties are willing to make painful concessions on both sides there is no negotiation where one party. Achieve you know or what it wants but the do part of this we need to make this. Concessions on both sides i think we cant be you know talking about. Improvement and one last thing we have to keep in mind for for peace to happen between the 2 parties that couldnt lead the 2 candidates are losing the status quo is not because the did it to resign but that i mean and well dont but also i mean it is losing them out of what we call the opportunity cost of conflict this whole comic development and is unable to meet c. D. S. Economic possibility because of the conflict so whats this have to realize that the art of losing a lot of the start is a good its not in their favor and opposite hope is not sustainable but that reason they have to make it a just this is. A fascinating educational discussion thanks to all our guests hekmat had here for our son and abraham for hat and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out is there a dot com and for further discussion go to our facebook pages facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at a. J. Inside story for me and long car and a whole team here and a whole life and. I. This is 0. How about im the star of the attack and this is the news hour live from our headquarters here in doha coming up in the next 60 Minutes Russia is accused of trying to steal vaccine days of the coronavirus and a vote meddling in the u. K. Moscow denies the allegations the british woman who went to syria to join i saw when she was a school about wins the right to return and challenge the removal of has said as unchecked. Azerbaijans foreign minister as sachs as fighting continues on the ball