A mining disaster in cuba dropped 33 men the world watched as a 2 month rescue turned need tragedy into a miracle aljazeera revisits the men once celebrated as National Hero and asks how this ordeal changed their lives chilean miners after the rescue on the jersey. Big mistrust of big tech the u. S. Congress questions that heads of apple Amazon Google and facebook on anti competitive behavior how the internet giants become too powerful and is that a need for new laws to regulate them this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program our number one car on amazon apple google and facebook for companies that have changed the way we live work shop and stay in touch with our friends and family but the american tech giants have long been accused of abusing their power to drive out competition and mishandling user data the u. S. Congress has been investigating their Business Practices for years old when politicians question the firms chief executives as they consider changes to Anti Trust Laws will bring in our guests in a moment but 1st this report from alan fischer in washington d. C. You know as the Ranking Member of fittingly the tech giants appeared virtually to face questions the subcommittee chairman making clear he sees a problem their dominance is killing Small Businesses and you factoring in the overall dynamism that of the engines the American Economy their ability to dictate terms call the shots up and entire sectors and inspire fear represent the powers of a private government this was meant to be an inquiry into Business Practices do the 4 Companies Google amazon apple and facebook stifle rivals and kill competition one republican immediately made clear he also wanted to talk about bias online we love the fact that these are American Companies but whats not great is censoring people censoring conserves and trying to impact elections and if it doesnt end there has to be consequences from each of the 4 bosses a common theme they were innovators job creators the definition of american excellence theres room in retail for multiple winners we compete against large established players like target costco kroger and of course walmart a company more than twice amazon size our goal is the best not the most in fact we dont have a dominant share in any market or in any product category where we do business facebook boss Mark Zuckerberg face questions about the participant other social media platform instagram this said one congressman went to the heart of the inquiry basic story is the game is a threat that could potentially siphon business away from baseball and so rather than compete with it facebook do it this is exactly the type of in the competitive acquisition at the end they chose those we designed to prevent Mark Zuckerberg was asked about hate speech appearing on his site he insisted he was committed to intercepting it before most users saw it he said that this excess street was Company Running it 89 percent but he wanted to get that up to 99 percent. Zuckerberg also talked about the recent removal of misleading content around corporate 19 and treatments dangerous he said we do prohibit content that will lead to imminent risk of harm and stating that there is a proven cure for when there isnt fact no one might encourage them to take something that could have an adverse effect so we do take that down the subcommittee says it will hold new hearings of september this is not the end for the tech giants its the start and it puts them on notice if they dont look at their operations legislators will alan fischer aljazeera capitol hill. Lets bring in our panel in washington d. C. We have larry irving a former u. S. Assistant secretary of commerce for communications and information and a former Vice President of the tech Company Hewlett Packard in new delhi we have sharma put it and its of course india who specializes in indias Tech Industry and in belgium we have Marco Kohlberg a professor at the university of vienna and a member of the European Commissions expert group on Artificial Intelligence a welcome to you all id like to begin in washington d. C. With larry. This is a 4. 00 trillion dollar industry it has billions of users it is invasive and im do using that word deliberately in almost every aspect of our lives is Congress Asking the wrong question this isnt about antitrust laws anymore about competition or about we should be treating this as a Global Situation where big tech needs policing is that right. Yes i know if you look at yesterdays hearing there were 2 thirds of the question i trust and its the end i trust committee but there are another one 3rd of the questions were about the larger issues of what big tech is doing and how were doing it so i say that were looking domestically and all of the implications of whats happening with big tax whats happening with these 4 companies but the and i trust implications are huge because if you dont have competition youre going to depress innovation and you also have to get Significant Impact on consumers so i think from the i trust community standpoint getting that competition getting that innovation going is critical consumers care about competition consumers care about innovation but there are other questions and there are other parts of the u. S. Government other parts of the Public Discourse that are focusing on those issues as well but larry is competition the absolute answer to all of this i mean lets take a look at the Telecommunications Sector there is competition there but there are still monopolies are still Huge Companies controlling everything. United states has a uniquely interesting. And i trust environment so competition is a key component we look at competition as being an important part of anything we do in terms of our policy when you look at European Union india and asia they have different and i trust regime we kind of start a business standpoint and look at the Competition Model but thats not the only value here you know we do care about election interference we do care about hate speech we do care. About those other kind of core fundamental values that people are talking about but if you have a situation where a company is buying a company for the purpose of putting them out of business or threatening to put them out of business and we bought thats a competition problem if you have a company that sells products and then steals the best products being sold online and increase their own product at a lower price thats a competition problem so weve got to try to balance all these things these companies are u. S. Companies they were created here they were economic models they are technological marvel billions of people around the planet use them one hand we want to continue the benefits that these Companies Give to people on the other hand we want to make sure that were not distorting the marketplace that people arent being harmed that innovation isnt being harmed and thats a delicate balance its not something that is going to come easy and congress is probably put our Congress United states is particularly not well armed to take on these issues because they dont have the kind of quick answers that i think most people on the planet are hoping for if they think theres a problem lets bring in mark kuchel the intelligence the u. S. Congress asking the right questions of Google Facebook amazon etc. Well i think of course this is about competition but it but its also about the enormous power of the Big Tech Companies have games during the last decade its about technology thats no longer i think just a technology but thats thats there in the middle of our lives im not surprised that big political tensions are now ready and are much more going to be about additional tech and new delhi its a question opponents we mentioned earlier one of our guests and mentioned india specifically ellie it has a different anti trust regime a different set of antitrust laws whats indias biggest concern particularly as one of the biggest developing markets when it comes to tech. So we do have a rule and its just one sees at some of the allegations that have been he isnt it Us Iranian Army for instance you know there was nobody said she was a do you know how to get back on the back. Against the source and navigation against amazon in the india one gets ecommerce is still very new to india and amazon is at the forefront of indian it out in the country so if amazon has actually managed to get him and nods and. Be biased against the province and or has been instrumental in getting Small Businesses. I wouldnt be surprised if there has not been given the annoyance to not even they are also given the fact that we want syrians in india very Little Chicks in so long 98 in the us in the us is our breaking them just happened in the last decade or innings. Amazon is literally building out the market it india in that sense so if these allegations. It just highlights how. State institutions. But the for india particularly theres also the security situation as well when it comes to big tech lets take the case of blackberry a few years ago where they wanted say the Indian Government wanted access to Blackberry Service blackberry said no and that very disappointed disappeared in the country as a result where do you read it where it is the indians and figure their security versus freedom comes into this comes into play. This is this has been an ongoing debate in india for several years like that that we need samuel raunch and recently there has been discussions with india and say screw you hes an event it was just chinese at the vase of you didnt see shootings so its an online debate mean to monitor the means of the government has been there its Companies Course they do the same doing it india and there are a lot of junk just in there including the fact is ringback you know does not have the answer to some of the kind of so who is that is saying on to twitter or an arms on would need. Diplomacy is being discussed in someones instantly. So in that sense is that we dont really see it is a serious concern for median government even that it comes to government as the new nominee has been taking steps to ensure they do a busy for a new nuisance the area of it in washington d. C. Security obviously a very key concern for the Us Government as well and for governments all over the world because there are so many people involved in big tech either as consumers or people working in the industry surely its time to stop treating them like businesses a more like nation states i mean one of the congressman did say that these are almost have the power of small governments maybe it is time to look at that way. I dont think weve ever been in the situation were in today traditionally the biggest comes United States had huge market power United States and some market power globally i think i heard facebook at 2600000000 users apple. Is one of the most Important Technology anyone the planet the i phone is ubiquitous when you look at whats happening with google and you look and happening with any of these companies theyre different than any Companies Ever before that ill grant you but but the problem is how do you regulate a global company. People want to use good people see huge benefit and say were going to stop them providing the benefits to the consumer thats the balance that i think that congress is trying to deal with and i trust authority funded with the European Unions authority to try and use it on the one hand we do see potential abuses and again until you have a court case im a lawyer until these allegations are proven their allegations so youve got to go through a process which is a long process with a well heeled company one of the things i want to have historically when you look at 80 interior you look at microsoft you look at General Motors United States has had these big global striving companies that people say were dominant in the company of i. B. M. Over time newer smarter more Innovative Companies come along and undercut those companies or replace those companies so are we when i started the government and your partner commerce the concern around the planet was microsoft and how much power they had when i started in Telecommunications Policy concerning a t. N. T. And how much talent i have now court did involve themselves and did change the structure of those companies over time i think youre going to see the same thing with regard to the big 4 today but i also think were going to see innovative entrepreneurs who just arent willing to settle for the status quo and thats the combination we need focUs Government and companies that come in and say i can do this better than you do it and im going to prove in the marketplace im going to come to i guess in new delhi in belgium but id like to follow up a quick point with you larry i. B. M. 18 t. Old the companies that you mention even the one used to work for heel apocalypse actually sold us something we are now the product thats the difference and that scary that something that will come congress doesnt understand well it is time surely to police that because were the product. I think youre going to see policing and yes it was the 1st salvo congress started acting were in the middle of our election season im a democrat which may not be important to rest the world but in our political system democrats generally have had a more focused approach on competition have been much more concerned about and i trust in portsmouth the republicans are much more market oriented i do believe that biden presidency youre going to see a lot more scrutiny. I dont know how this is going to end up and nobody else does either because the reality is and i trust a geisha takes a long time it is a slow process and these very Large Companies have a lot of ability to protect themselves again and i trust enforcement thats the reality so its going to be political persuasion and its going to be and i trust enforcement and i think those 2 forces are going to be whats going to be required to really make some significant difference and its not the people United States not the regulators are unaware whats the right solution that benefits consumers and competition because to your point we may be the product but there are billions of people who are doing this product and benefiting from this product in particular in a pandemic i get an amazon product every day delivered at my door maybe to be an alternative but i do know that right now if i walk up and down my block in washington d. C. Every other house is getting something members on people are going to give that up. Its like a shell or put it in new delhi we have a whole raft of International Treaties treaties there are many of them countries signed up to them is it time for an International Digital treaty. Most definitely and i would just like to bring in you know the gentleman before me was talking about he really shouldnt certain entrepreneurs would go ahead and bring this not leak but at the same time. I mean i dont want to set an example you know we have really massive young stand out for our ecosystem the other were 2nd or 3rd largest started because system for google and facebook have always need acquisitions in india and they continue to be very involved with the community so. For a young entrepreneur or with those dreams to do to you know sort of build a business that believes that monopoly. Can get really intimidating and hard for instance in the eagle reception and simply never will still look really created it got responders focusing on the short on marketplaces and security but amazon continues to be the leader because nobody can match that kind of money and muscle and marketing next that and amazon can bring has not as global digitization today who as i i i believe that is something to be not that it was a Genetic Companies are not just reveal agnostic they are not limited to internet is not limited to was a generalization and in most cases unless the government or or or or or green party has a has a many dont want leading the people access something has created a war garden everyone can access everything on the internet so in that context on all governments only leaders should come together and sort of into an internet economy that is more conducive and nurturing us businesses and was a defensible. Coke oberg in belgium is there something to be learned from the chinese the chinese have their own almost own separate ecosystem from the rest of the world theres not a huge amount of facebook theres not a huge amount of twitter theyve got their own versions of that domestically theyve managed to control the flow of information is there something to be learned from that. Well what can we learn from it is that politics doesnt need to be totally powerless and in the face of these these companies but i think its not a good solution to the too close borders theyre saying its better way to as you just discussed to try to govern this globally. The problems we we see here with Digital Technologies in general its not only about these. Particular companies i think the problems we see are are global and so it i think it would benefit everyone else citizens over the world if we had more regulation of the global level but of course so far this is not not happening not happening enough and we have 3 different different political cultures and for example in need europe theres theres a lot of emphasis on regulation whereas in the us that is still a difficult and difficult issue in this sector well lets talk about lets talk about your appellate the moment im very interested where does the European Union stand on things like antitrust laws as they apply in america where does the European Union see big tax. Well as weve seen in the past years that European Union has taken action against some behaviors of these Big Companies have sort of pushed back on. The fact that they make the rules and. Everyone in on the planet including people in europe have to have to follow so i think what europe has shown in the past year or so is that its. Its own leadership in terms of regulation d of the shown that regulation is possible. And can be. Very effective like the g. D. P. Our the privacy and Data Protection regulation in europe d. Has effectively work for european citizens to protect their their rights against these companies and so i think that thats a very positive thing that it shows that its possible to to do something. And it doesnt have to mean that that competition and innovation is strangled i think its possible to find a balance there larry having both our guests but i thought i guess in belgium the new delhi have suggested that actually International Oversight will happen at some point the Congress Report on a gun please dont act. National overside happening and and i think whats important to note is that folks in the United States are noticing whats happening in india and their concerns in india and we want a vibrant middle class in india i know that ive been informed a great deal by whats happening in the European Union the European Commission has their privacy policies their competition policy has helped inform how we think about what needs to be done here in United States we have a different structure these are kind of local champions and our come out and i trust laws a much more difficult much it takes a longer time for them to go through its not the other way and i think that my colleague from your got it exactly right we have a balancing act that we have to focus on its not just about competition its not just about consumers its not just about regulation and thats who are trying to trying to hit that sweet spot no one here is unaware of the problems you can pick up a newspaper in the United States you can turn on the Television Without worry about the effect on elections hate speech privacy Data Security children competition all of those issues are on the table whats the best way to address them is the issue the harder part is finding ways to harmonize these internationally because there are different regimes and i dont think were seeing whats beginning called a splinter net where china will have one regulatory body policy europe will have a different sort of policy United States will have a 3rd rail sort of policy i can assure you that no one state went to china once the Chinese Authority where the government is embedded in so much of what the companies do so there is the balance there i mean on the one hand we actively reject kind of a chinese model some of us look at what youre doing and think thats important and some of us realize that there are some. Permit fees i guess the best word of the u. S. Model but how do we get to a place where all of us globally are having these conversations and working in the best interest consumers and i think thats where were really where we are well its a very interesting word to use the splinter net when you have a president and the. Right now who isnt a huge fan of International Treaties as pulled out of several of them trying to persuade him to go for a digital treaty may not be the best solution particular as hes coming up to an election in november said the splinter that might be the defacto solution surely it might just be the thing that we can all agree on. Well we may not agree on it but it may be whats happening and i do think that you are seeing very different regulatory models i was on a call with the undersecretary. Under sector again of the United Nations and a bunch of global thinkers over the last week im going to call them and there are all of us globally who care about competition and innovation got in the game because we want to see a vibrant Robust Technology sector has some concerns that was happening but we also dont want to overreact because you know the unintended consequences when you talk about your Point Company the market cap of 5 1000000000. 00 that employs hundreds of 1000 people and who serve billions of people are also something we have to take into account i dont know that people want us to take facebook down we want to facebook to behave better in the sandbox i dont think people want to see google go away it serves an important purpose what we should google is a new this market power to distort the marketplace or to harm other competitors those are the kinds of issues how do you keep the services for people while at the same and at a price point that most people can afford which is pretty even though the product like the fact that this isnt costing them money out of their pockets while at the same time making sure that were not harming those consumers deprives is being protected that new concern and credit can come on board and that if im a guy with a product i dont with a product on the marketplace and have a big guy come in and say im going to undercut you lose money for a while until i put you out of business thats what no one wants to say i want to thank all our guests larry king it took a shell of what it will but and thank you for watching the program again and you can see it by visiting a web site al jazeera dot com and as a social media is very important Facebook Page facebook dot com photos slash inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we have a the inside story from a. Life in l. She said shes mental disease because 50 percent of the deaths of children and. Staff. But. Lacking to save and childhood education. She. Used. To. Be a. Top hat. Such as the cease. Fire. Japan is doing the math its a way to protect against devastating tsunami what i want to east investigative nature can be can time break the will expose communities to greater danger. On aljazeera. Beyond going fight between donald trump and the golden state because of drones philosophy he used in the everybody drawn to conflict with joe foreign exposes contrasting ideologies on immigration the environment economic and cultural issues trump is calling attention to the failure of the blue state model the key battlegrounds for the 2020 alexion people in power reports on trump versus california on aljazeera we know whats happening in our region we know how to get the playfield that others cannot but fires are still going on the way they tell the story is what can make a difference. Opposition activist joshua warm says resistance to hong kongs new security law will continue after his disqualified from running in elections. Hello this is al jazeera live from our World Headquarters in doha on friday back to board also ahead groan about his restrictions in india easing but the number of cases heads and
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