Bringing awareness to the struggle of millions of south africans quoting for into a parts a south africa held its 1st and aquatic election in 1994 healthy god. Oh, how can i go . Montana was elected president. The city is on civil president s and administrations later. Critics say south africa struggling with a poor economy and governance corruption and crime. It is important for us to see some of the good things that happened with them, of course, and of course, we have not dealt with poetry. We have not dealt with those who came up to us were homeless. We have no doubt with a, a, our health issues, them any child and just stick with it. The youth, the young people went on and unemployed, but it doesnt mean that nothing has been done, but boost this is despite the challenges many young still the africans today. One of them, his daughter, a former opportunities and before music and arts played a significant role in south africas fight for democracy. And so what so and other places songs quoting for freedom pins decades ago, still sung today when people want to express and go with this content. And often people here have a lot to complain about. Well, democracy, broad, significant change and freedoms for many here the government is not fulfilled. Some of its promises while sold africa remains one of the most unequal societies in the world. So me, them a lot older 0 so way to as well. That brings us the end of a show for banks and somebody else in the bottom line. The colleges, when the cheering decides to more fossil fuels, we burn the higher the planet. Were closing from the option to bite says the federal government is committed to rebuilding it with the in this gen and as an age where it goes right directly targeted and in depth coverage. How is any of this except it is not acceptable. Ill just say it was teens across the world when you closer to the heart of the story of the world a. Hi, im Steve Clements and i have a question. What role are some of the americas tech giants, including google meta and amazon planning and support of israels war crimes against palestinians . Lets get to the bottom line, the flying drones bit, lingering this guy waiting to identify a target and then firing a missile. Artificial intelligence that provides 247, surveillance and spies on a persons political affiliation from the data on his or phone algorithms that selectively sensor content blocking freedom of expression and access to information. These are all tools in the arsenal of governments around the world. But put to use to be fully today by israel against the palestinians. Now tech workers across the us are pushing back and summer, refusing to have any part in the work. Crimes committed by israel. But what kind of impact and this growing moving have. And how is big tech reacting today . Were talking with seldom montez a no tech for a part height activist and Software Engineer who was fired from google last week for protesting its dealings with israel. And paul, bigger a Software Developer and entrepreneur who recently founded the tech for palestine initiative. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us. And let me just start with useful that id like our audience to have a deeper understanding of what i just commented on about, you know, the many different dimensions that software firm, social media firms, our, were all talking about algorithms with a i. But how does a way in to this moment in the gaza is real crisis. Yeah, so i think that, um, for example, like, specifically a google um with project numbers, which is a 1200000000. 00 contract with these early government and military. I think what we see a lot of is, is military contracting basically happening with different governments, in this case, google providing ads, these really government and not being honest about the use cases in which theyre supposed to be used. They say all of the time that this isnt directed at military use. But nonetheless, we see very concerning reporting coming out of palestine about the use of it and surveilling palestinians and making a kill is the palestinian, such as with lavender in, in tracking that killed list with wheres daddy . Um and also targeting buildings and infrastructure shifts such as with the gospel. So i am starting to notice a lot of this aligning with when product numbers was signed with the israeli government. But back in 2021. We havent seen the scale of mass destruction that were seeing happening and goes up until this year until last year. Um and that aligns with the timing of entering that contract and as a tech worker, its very concerning to me that this a i is being created by workers may not know the impacts of what their labors having on the world in the past. Um, so the, the google ceo, sender pitch, i said we are not in the business of war, but our use basically saying your company was in the business of war the, i think it, it, it currently is in and beyond just project nimbus. Um google hy, this contracts with the Us Department of defense. And there has been a, a history of anti militarism organizing amongst workers. And maybe google hasnt been directly in the business of war in the past, but they have tried and its only been because of employee pushed back because of employee organizing that that hasnt happened sooner. And what were seeing now is a response to, to, to our efforts to say no, no tech for genocide, no tech for parts. I know tech for warfare, no tech for oppression or surveillance. And at this point, i think like google has completely lost the idea of building for everyone at this point. They really are just building for profit, even if that means at the expense of human lives. Paul, i read a, a, a post that you wrote, very powerful, one called i cant sleep, i recommend people look for it and read it. And its, it raises something ive been struggling with myself cuz i have many, many contacts and friends in Silicon Valley. And the truth is that most of my friends think they are working on things that will advance a society that will make the world a better place that will solve you know, many problems. And i guess my question to you is, what is happened from your perspective . With the conscience and soul of Silicon Valley right now as you see it with this particular conflict, but with wars and conflicts and general. And i think that Silicon Valley does, does think of itself as building for uh for the future. And im trying to build for, for growth and scale and in ways that makes the world a better place. But i think that what exactly it means to make the world a better place is very much rooted in us narratives. So the United States has, has always been on a team, it, israel has always been you know, putting aside the needs of the past indians and ignoring the needs of, of, uh, the other people who are, who are press there. And so when they say, you know, were making the world a better place, what, what it means is were making the world a better place for america and for americas allies. So, you know, its, its hard to look at this in a way that isnt rooted in your, as long as you have, for example, which is, which is prompted to midnight. It states, especially since 911. 00. And its something where the, the, the, that theyre talking about a bad counseling tech talk, for example, the fact that they have their bands tick tock. And the reason is because tick tock, even though it is a free speech mechanism, it is a free speech mechanism that goes against the needs of the United States. Whereas the other social media networks, for example, google, linkedin, and meta are all a huge sensor in the, towards the new to United States. So its never really been a bad. Were making something thats great for everybody. Its, its really been a badge. The, you know, we are making things for the United States and, and honestly for, for money to how does, yeah, i know, go ahead please. Zelda. Yeah, i wanted to add that. I think a lot of times when engineers are told to build something, there is not a lot of critical thought about how that technology might eat misuse. So i think that like engineers tend to trust their executives. And i think back when google was an Engineering Company and not a business company, that may have been true that you could trust your leadership to build something that is actually supposed to try to make the world a better place. But at this point, we know weve seen our executives that google, for example, lie to us countless times about how the technology is being used. And i think its really critical for engineers to also use questioning skills to say, okay, i my building a drone to deliver, you know groceries to someone and how might that be misuse if we add a weapon to that drone and now its being used to kill people instead, i think that most times engineers arent in positions where they are directly impacted by the technology that they build. Um, because most of the time where an incredibly privilege spaces. Um, so were not really the ones that are experiencing the impression that comes from that technology. And i think that thats why like from an education perspective, its really important for engineers to, to be questioning our leadership to hold them accountable. And to make sure that the intent in which we build the things is actually being carried out in that way. Paul, what in your experience made this crisis apply to palestinians right now . Um, something that you wanted to invest your career and credibility and its, its something where there is an objective wrong. The. The oppression of the pal students, the, the showings of, at this point, 41000 palestinians, official number. And the fact that tact is, is directly involved in it, right to the tech is not a quiet participant in it attack is being extremely vocal and its coming out on, on the side of the oppressor. And youre personally, someone whos on irish coming from uh, people whose identity is, is historically impressed. Yeah, this isnt something that we can stand beside is all that, let me ask you something about the project nimbus and the internal culture right now at google. Google is a Massive Company with massive capacity and outreach in the world. But is there an awareness thats developing among employees as you just said, that they need to Pay Attention somewhat to what their great ideas and their innovations are going to be applied to . Yeah, i think that theres definitely an effort. I think that no tech for part side was really, is really still trying to do that um to in the context of specifically project nimbus. But beyond that, to raise questions of, if this, if this is a contract that google has signed, what other contracts might we not know about . What kind of transparency are we not receiving as employees . And how might our labor be use without our consent and ways that are going to hurt people . And i think that and the sit in action was especially powerful because there is a culture of trying to silence that. Those sorts of questions that kind of defend um and it, we had raised through appropriate channels for, for years about project name base about like, hey, this is what these really government is saying. And this is what google spokes people are saying about how the contract is being used and theyre not lining up. So we just kind of want some answers about this. And none of the leadership really wanted to engage with our questions. And so at that point, like it took being disruptive in the workplace, it took like actually making a lot of a lot of um oh yeah, like take taking over the narrative and saying you cant silence or questions. These are valid questions to be asked and it took bravery to do that. Um, its a bravery for i was one of the 9 people who also got a rest in it. It took bravery to it to say, im not leaving until product name is dropped or until like you use for me out of here. And i know that that serves a bigger purpose than just me because i see now. So many people reach out to me saying, hey, i saw what you did and i want to join no tech for parts. I like how do i get involved, even in the face of all the refreshing that were that weve been experiencing as well. You were speaking about the bravery of those who have taken it, but what is the after effect the day after feel like . Yeah, well i feel like, personally i had been experiencing actually a lot of a prospect and tossing and spying in the office for speaking up very loudly in the office about project and base and trying to spread awareness about it. I had ended up filing 14 h r concerns that didnt really get addressed whatsoever. And for me, part of taking that risk and knowing that that there was very likely for me a potential to lose my job because i was willing to risk arrest. I already knew that google didnt care about me. That doesnt make it too much easier. Um, i have only been working and ive only been out of college for like almost 2 years at this point and very early in my career. But, but i think that any of the opportunities that i might lose right now, i will be worth it in the, in the grand scheme of things i, i think that it serves again like a purpose much bigger than mine. I. I will figure things out, the right doors will open up and the ones that have to stay close will stay close. I personally dont have any interest in working for any place that wouldnt allow me to speak up and say, no tech for genocide. I think that good riddance with those places. Um but nonetheless it is, it is something that i that i am leaning into my community a lot for support because there is community there. And i think that thats like about building the trust with the people around to make sure that youre facing these things alone. 5 years ago, there was a project, there was an, a project out the department of defense that google was very much a part of called project maven. And in that case, googles leaders did in fact join with its workers and its engineers, and it withdrew from that project. What do you think has changed or do you think theyre different in some way that, that google uh maintains as a role in project nimbus. Now and, and, and did Something Different 5 years ago or um, i think honestly, it says one of us will be a huge part of it. Is this lemma phobia. Its the fact that um, the kinds of lives that no tech for par side are speaking up for and in defense of our not the lives that the United States, the government, um and google particularly care about their lives that have been already rendered indispensable by, by this Current Society here in the United States, and for many of us, we know that thats not the real case. We know that all of those lives matter. We know that i personally have felt so much immense grief around all of the death and destruction that weve seen coming out of guys that but i also think that its an element of money. Weve seen these Companies Grow so much more money hungry and even at the expense of, of i dont, i dont think that google cares about their workers the way that they used to say that they did receive that as well, with the layoffs. And so if google is almost at 2 trillion dollars evaluation and theyre still having layoffs, even though theoretically, they really never needs a way anybody off. I think that just shows that they dont care as much about the workers as, as, as they do about the money that theyre able to make for the execs to be able to continue to empower all their other platforms and technologies that are, are part of this picture that youve written about and, and commented on, one of them is whatsapp. Whatsapp is a hugely Popular Communications device. How is whatsapp being woven into this war situation in ways that are public should be aware of . So i think to think so its a realize a lot like zelda is saying very leadership and, and the workers are, are not on the same page. Theyre, theyre actually is fundamentally within a lot of these organizations, a desire to be pro israel within google. There are an awful lot of people who are there. Zohler mentioned all the, all the treatment that she was facing internally thats, thats something that were here. Its in every social Media Company and every big tech company, which, wherever, as a leadership are actively taking the side of those around, theyre actively taking the side of genocide. So its something where youre in, in, in the case of, of whats up its, its sort of unclear exactly where israel is getting lots of data for making the, that the bombings thought that were described in, in the plus 9. Its certainly to article on lavender, but what is clear is dot meta is not doing anything about it. It is not protecting it to users. It is not protecting its workers from harassment, from other workers who, who are approaches. Its something where, where fundamentally, there myself and self mentioned design, itd be a, thats certainly part of it. But its also part of it is that these, these companies are hugely pro israel with a huge number of workers, both in israel and the u. S. A. Who, who are aligned with walk israel is doing, and its very, very disproportionate to that. But let me ask you, let me interrupt you here for a minute. So this is one of the things i dont understand is, is i can understand that pro is real stance inside of tech company. Why arent they demanding precision, as opposed to indiscriminate killing and bombing . This indiscriminate killing and bombing is the point. If you look before october 7th, right, this has been going on 75 years. No tech for part time was found as long before october 7th. The reason that they were trying to do is because there is no par sides in the west. Thank adding jobs or jobs that has been block hated since 2005. The killing was have cut been happening for decades. The 2000 people were killed in in 2021 and the last 4. There was a war in 2014. So israel has been doing this for a long, long time, and the, the people who are, yeah you, you might describe yourself as pro as well. But i think youre, youre describing yourself maybe in a different sort of pro israel lights. What youre saying is that the, the people of israel have to have the right to life. And of course we have, we all agree with us. But what is, what is actually happening here is pro, is really policy. Im the really, paul that has always been onyx thing, the west bank of taking over guys of taking over the entire land that was formerly palestine. And so when were talking about pro has their own profile. So im, were talking to a very different things. Were talking about, you know, supporting is riley political policy, which is a badge taking over the land from the palestinians. And when we say of call stands are really talking about being pro