Tonight in our debate for communism and human rights violations, the United States scorns cuba. Has fidel castro won. Later in our panel. Charlie hebdo says it will not publish more cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. Has intimidation worked. Planned parenthood caught on tape haggling over the price of foetus procurement. Do they have anything to apologise for. Im imran garda. And this is third rail we can do more to support the cuban people and promote our values through engagement. You dont break a mafia by doing business it. We gave away the store and got nothing in return. They have not made political reforms. Do we want a china model perpetuating the slavery of the people. Every economic traction strengthens the regime that is torturing the people. Change. We are risking going backwards, instead of forward. Isolating the country does want. For the last 54 years its been a . In few years you have a new generation taking over. Human rights, value of democracy. Thatll be on the agenda. To affect change in an it. Tonight we have orlando, cofounder and national secretary. And ambassador vicky huddleston. Former director of Cuban Affairs thank you for joining us, both of you. Orlando, has castro won . Certainly. We opened up with a dead beat corrupt regime, without pressure on them making change. Theyll continue to be corrupt and deadbeet. They are controlled by the military, the military controlled by the castro family. They are a state that persecuted Washington Investors and confiscated property. And the american tax payer will foot the bill for the debts castro doesnt pay. We saw in other countries, france, mexico, japan, russia, debt. And we made a mistake. We have established relations without any type of concession with a regime that killed americans. We returned a man responsible for the death of four americans. A regime that harbours home grownst terrorists. We have undermined the prodemocracy movement by depresses. Thats a list. For good reasons. Well flesh these out. Orlando is not happia says the United States happy. Out. I think the cuban people won. American people won, theyll travel and engage cuba. And i think the United States government wants, because the world sees the United States is not as cuba has always put it the enemy. Taking away the United States an an enemy means that cuba now has to behave in a way that is acceptable to the international community. And increasingly we see that cuba is doing that. Raul castro announced hell step down and therell be a new president of cuba, so i see that change. This sounds nice in theory, since the effort to normalize relations, dissidents say there has been more than 3,000 political detentions, including 641 in may, 220 after that, and one on sunday. In june. That doesnt sound good, does it. In theory, its thought that cuba would ease up. They are not. Gaol. First of all, normal relations with any country should not be dependent on whether and what the government does. It should be dependent on is this a country, is it recognised by the united nations. Should not be dependent on what the government does, no matter what they do. If we dont like what they do we need to engage in talks with them. We need to organise coalitions with other governments, to indicate that this behaviour is not acceptable. But isolating ourselves from that country, not carrying out a debate with that country or not recognising them in this case that has made the United States look like look in a bad way. Orlando, in spring, 2015, a Washington Post poll said 97 of cubans think better relations with the u. S. Will benefit cuba, and the same percentage says the economic embargo should end. 97 of cubans disagree with you. I can say a poll by the International Group shows an overwhelming number of cubans want the one Party One Party or one man rule. They dont want economic sanctions lifted until the rights are respected. A total tarrian tate where people peak. A majority of want change, a transformation of cuban politics. The United States has been a part of that. Why are they celebrating, we are not just doing polls, we are reading them. We have reports saying that the happened. They are arrested every month, and they are fighting for human rights. They want to maintain a policy of support, by not listing the sanctions. Release of political prisons and oppression. Opening up the elections. If the embargo doesnt work, surely you try Something Else . In the case of spain, portugal and greece, we help a posse of promoting democracy, leading to a democratic, aiding world. A country like south africa was condemned universely. You have the u. N. Secretary General Assembly. 188 out of 192 countries calling for an end to the u. S. The whole world. You are dealing with a state, the likes not seek in a long time. The influence in latin america is extensive. Venezuela is one of the cuban advisors, and other countries are under the sway of the cuban apparatus. Thats why they are dangerous and shouldnt be seen as a normal country. Repress. Sounds like im talking to someone in the heart of the cold war. Its not a cold war. They are in the heart of the cold war. If you listen to the achievements on december 13th, they are immersed in struggles, they havent changed how to rule the world. They see the concessions as a green light, the way they are. Do you think that this government is expansionist, that they see the United States as a main adversary. The United States is a convenient enemy. It is over, and as i said a few minutes ago, cuba has to conform to the behaviour of the international community. One of the great things we are going to see now it that cuba, in order to join the International Financial institutions is going to have to adopt the world behaviour norms for entering the financial institutions. When cuba joins or rejoins organizations in american states, and when it works with other communities and countries in europe and in latin america, then, again, theyll have to address their issues on on human rights. The thing that we are seeing now is a whole population of 11 million cubans feeling like they have an opportunity for change. World. Do you believe thats your policy on behalf of the United States government all these years has been a failure until now . Actually. Why is that . The embargo is a failure. As einstein said, its insanity to keep doing something time and time again and think youll get a different result. We did the embargo for 50 years, and got a different result. Its time to change. Beyond the embargo looking at all this money spent on freedom and democracy, the 700 million for tv, radio, the trying to get hip hop into cuba, trying to get them to embrace twitter. Theyve been a spectacular failure, do you accept, a spectacular failure. In essence, no one has seen it less. I was involved in putting it on the air. Cuba effectively blocked it. We didnt take it off the air. We spent the money, and no one saw it. It was a politicalish u with the cuban american community. The things we tried to do. You are answering the question, saying that castro won, because everything failed and hes got what he want. They have a deal without having to make concessions. Normal relations should not depend on concessions, not concessions. Its a poll city that didnt work. The wise thing to do was to. Making preparations, its said that it was a transition government from fidel or raul castro. It specified conditions under which embargoes can be ended. Free elections, release of Political Prisoners none seem to be on the table while the door is open. For those cuban dissidents, for those human rights activist, those like orlando, its a betrayal. You can understand. First of all, correct the record, i know the human right activists. I met with them about a year ago in mexico, when most of were there. The human rights activists are divided down the middle as far as should the embargo be gone or shouldnt it. It is not at all true to say that the human rights activists are against raising the embargo. Many, many are. There are good activists in cuba that support lifting the embargo, but the majority, the forum for freedom in cuba, freedom and democracy, they are against the unilateral lifting of sanctions. Conditions, political reform in cuba we are dealing with a totalitarian regime and we dont approach them. We know how to approach them. What do you do, go to war with them . No, we wait them out. No one dealing with fashous greece or port call. Without an economying opening. Lets wait for reform or the regime to tradition and condition into the mainstream world. What we are doing is sending a signal for the rest of latin america. The rage each has not ratified. When the regime said theres times of change, it hasnt ratified covenants on human rights. In 1994, they bring about free multiparty elections in cuba. They had no interest going to the u. S. Because of a democracy clause. They create their own parallel institutions which are not pragmatic. Not only is it a mistake, its a mistake for the entire region, it took a long time. Its empowering a regime. The United States doesnt just only have friendships with democracies, theres different governments. To this point, joint marco rubio vowed to cut funding for the havana embassy, to block the ambassador. Secretary kerry said to not meet with people in cuba to foe what was going on is a cut off of opportunity. Its cutting off your nose to night your face. Hes right. If you play that game, where does it end. Does the United States block the ambassador to china. First of all, we should promote democracy. History shows me whenever the funnel is open, repress increases in syria. The little openings we are seeing is a result of that regime, trying to gain more oxygen. If we give them that investment, that regime, we supply them with money to buy the instruments of repression, thats how it works. I can show you the worst moments. I want to take a short break. A cuban human rights activist arrested multiple times. The cuban people dont buy the idea that things are getting better. We want to see a compromise. Later on. Its a moral problem. Procedure. When you say well i have to go and buy my lamborghini. In is o inflammatory. You always find someone making an asa nine comment. And later in field notes, do ill have two or three puffs and ill already have a nicotine buzz. 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The denial basic civil and Political Rights it part of cuban war. Theres no independent political parties, independent unions or media. People are detained for thinking differently. Cuban opposition leaders are detained and beaten. Security. Chaos on the streets of panama as supporters vase off against opposition activists. The world is finding out what many knew, but did not believe. Welcome back. Joining us now is the human rights director and was detained for political and human rights activism. Are you for or against the United States and cuba normalizing relations . I think it should be accompanied by concessions on the part of the cuban government. We have seen them move a little bit. At least. You are against it. Its not a matter of being against or for. You can say its the decision of the United States government. We want a compromise in human rights and liberty. Better. The people are not believing that. I was there in may. The number of cuban. Matter. My family is there. I live in cuba every day. My job was to come into contact with cuba, with people checking. Tell me something. You were there in may. People in cuba a week ago they are trying to say, thats the official statistics of the u. S. Coast guard and border patrol. People reaching the United States, since december 17th has more than doubled, nearly tripled. Why, because they are afraid of the cuban, that this will be eliminated. They cuban people dont buy the idea that things are getting better. If they believe that, they stay, right . Most, as we well know, most of the people leaving cuba with smugglers are on their own in rickety vessels and risking their lives and are doing so because they are economic migrants. People picked up at sea, if ins interviews them and feel that any are persecuted, they take them to Guantanamo Bay, and resettle them in third countries. The thing that obama should do is he needs to end the wet foot policy. As long as that policy exists, cubans will be risky. Cubans need. If someone is intercepted or found at sea, they get sent back. If they make it to the United States. Its a huge send off. No, no, no. Smuggling is worse. No, they deny the basic human rights of people. The history of people moving from countries or areas in which they have had no liberty or they have economic crisis to areas. What they would be or think would be better. Mention of Guantanamo Bay made me thing of the big issues between the two countries, issues of Guantanamo Bay, and the fact that its cuban land to the United States by agreements, signed many years ago. The u. S. Occupies it. Do you think the big issues will be discussed people getting their homes back. Will ever be discussed. The cuban freedom act shows that the Guantanamo Bay will be for a future government. The point i want to make, is to do with people getting their properties restored or taken back by them. Historically. The United States made a great mistake by too often condolling or tolerating the regime. A u. S. Posse linked to cuba is the best way to consolidate and have normal relations with the u. S. Thats been going on for half a century and failing. It had success, it had success in weakening the soviet union. Number two, the embargo has been important in supporting a profreedom movement. A Peaceful Movement growing and struggle. Fighting against the regime. It reduced resources that the regime suppressed. Its empowered, and a growing segment is in favour of change. Its been a longterm support for cuba. Policy. Is. I would continue the sanctions and support on to the cash regime. Going back to what i told you earlier on, 188 out of 192 voting members of the u. N. Secretary General Assembly disagree with you. The whole world disagrees with you. Thats 180 reasons why lifting sanctions has not worked. They have relations, deal with the regime and it continues to repress. Its about the regime evolving and changing. That can be accomplished through an intelligent posse, as done with south africa or poland. Support for the movement and pressure. I have to take issue with alondo. First of all, the embargo in no way contributed to the soviet unions demise. Pulling out its 4 billion a year subsidy from cuba helped it survive a little longer. On the contrary, gustav nyquist, and el salvador helped to bring about initialling, and nicaragua and el salvador regime. What it has done is hoped to keep the cuban people in poverty, preventing them having the communications they need, because it reinforced the cuban governments control of Communications Like radios, televisions, cellphones, thumb drives. People are kept in poverty by a regime that doesnt know how to handle, or resulting in an impoverished nation. You have an economical country becoming a poor one. Why is that, the castro regime. Everyone knows that. The embargo hasnt contributed to all this. We were a Major Trading partner. Lets see what happens to the cuban people when they have a chance to trade with the United States. Lets ask the cuban people what they think. You are familiar with the leader of the opposition group, ladies in white. She told al jazeera we dont want mcdonalds and human rights. We want first that there is respect for human rights, rights for all cuban, and afterwards let mcdonalds come. She spelt it out for you. Shes against the deal. You know, fine, and i respect especially human rights activists like omar, and the people in cuba against it. I respect that. I believe, my government believes that the best way to move forward with cuba is to bring it into the community of nations, to talk with it, and also to take the United States away as the enemy. Its an old policy, a failed policy, people. Talking about the failed policy, you have a radio show spent on radio tv. Are you wasting your time . No, oment wasting my time. Have you reached out to cubans and places like havana and elsewhere. I reach out to cubans, we interview them every day. We receive emails but since the beginning, it was a fundamental fool for human rights. You know, every media in cubas control by the cuban government. Peoples rights activist have no way to reach out to the population. I can say that from a personnel perspective. When we went to the headquarters, to protest. That was december 6, 19