Threat to sydney. Now on bbc news Stephen Sackur speaks to the film director bolivias president evo morales announces his resignation after weeks of protests over last months disputed elections. Im ben bland in london. Also in the programme. Cyclone bulbul rips through coastal welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen areas of bangladesh and india, killing at least 13 sackur. For many filmmakers and people and forcing more than two film goers movies are about escapism and entertainment. Look at the listings in your local cinema and you will see what they mean. But not so you will see what they mean. But not so for my guest today. One of the most lauded and durable directors in the uk film industry, ken loach. He has made 27 films, he has won the biggest prize at khanna twice, and yet his films are the very opposite of escapism. His latest is an unrelenting, bleak take on the exploitation of workers in the so called gig economy. If entertainment is in his mission, what is . Ken loach, welcome to hardtalk. Thanks very much. A pleasure to be her. Around five yea rs pleasure to be her. Around five years ago there was some talk of humour not making movies are very longer if at all. Yet he you said having just made another movie, sorry we missed you, before that you made eye daniel lee, which one a huge prize at cannes. Can we take it your passion for filmmaking bones as bright as ever . You can. There are 70 stories to tell. Did you come close to quitting . Well, at the time, it was a slightly misjudged remark. Why was on my knees and an irish pub, my feet were wet, and i thought i cant go on doing this for much longer. But, you know, you come out, you get dry, the people around you are terrific fun and creative and ajoy to you are terrific fun and creative and a joy to be with and you think, well, why not, keep pressing on. But since then that one remark is rather dogged me. But tried to distil for me what gets you out of bed and onto the set every morning now. Fundamentally is it about a love for the arts, for the craft of filmmaking, or is it because of the political passions that drive you . Both, both. And we do our best not to make bleakfilms. They disagree with you. You heard my introduction. I think that is unfair. Bleak is not. Anything that tries to explore relationships, how we live together, the mothers, fathers, partners, kids is not bleak, because relationships are full of warmth and contradiction and affection and disagreements and struggles. And thats the essence of humanity. And thats not bleak stop well, id take your point. Focus on the music movie werejust releasing, sorry we missed you. Id just up and be lucky enough to said ina just up and be lucky enough to said in a prerelease screening. And ill tell honestly, its a film where they came out of the cinema feeling heavier than when i went in. You know, it brought a dark, sad, depressed mood upon me because of what id seen. And is that not something that you sorta want, in a way . This is a story of the lives lived by hundreds of thousands of people in our country. There will be couriers in the bbc now delivering oi couriers in the bbc now delivering or collect being who are working under those conditions. If they are youngsters and full of energy it will probably work for them. If theirfamily men will probably work for them. If their family men or family will probably work for them. If theirfamily men orfamily men and women, with obligations, with kids to bring up, then they know the stress of bogus self employment or zero hours. Those who havent seen the movie, which is the great mass of the population, it will be released soon. Lets just be clear that about this story because it focuses on one family, one particular man, ricky turner, his wife abby, and their two kids. Ricky was in the construction trade, he lost jobs, was in the construction trade, he lostjobs, he was in the construction trade, he lost jobs, he could was in the construction trade, he lostjobs, he could not get work. He decided, despite welling up heavy the debt, to buy a van and become a puzzle delivery man looking for a big company which basically employs these people, nominally self employed, but driving them with ruthless efficiency in terms of their service contract. Its called their service contract. Its called the gig economy. Did you set out to try to tell the world that this gig economy is exploitative and wrong . Well, its certainly exploitative and it is a product of the free market system. You know, constant drive to lower labour costs. So if you can avoid paying holiday pay, you can avoid paying holiday pay, you can avoid paying holiday pay, you can avoid paying six pay sickbay, you put all the responsibility of things go wrong on driver and you call them self employed delivering a service, rather than employee, you can cut labour costs. So its a product of the so called free market. And his wife abby is a care worker going on looking after the most vulnerable people, the old people in our society, get them out of bed, gives them their medicines, washes them, you know, in an impossibly short split a space of time. Zero hours contract, no travel time paid. So both are exploited, both in exploited and insecure job. But both wa nted exploited and insecure job. But both wanted those jobs. Is surely the point is. Crosstalk. They wanted a secure. They needed to earn money. Whether they want those jobs to earn money. Whether they want thosejobs under to earn money. Whether they want those jobs under those conditions, knowing what they know about them something else. They wanted a secure job, like you do, like most of us. This is about, i suppose, your style and the way you make movies and need your stories together. Would it be fairto your stories together. Would it be fair to call you a polemicist in the sense that there is one overarching message which drives the movie . No, no. If it is a polemic then it is safe dinnerfilm. Its no. If it is a polemic then it is safe dinner film. Its about sons and fathers. For not film. It is about brothers and sisters. Where one brother goes off the rails and this puts this young sister in a situation where she has to be the peacemaker. Its about exhaustion. All that is true and is beautifully done. Crosstalk so it is not about the polemic. In terms of the film, the reasons why this family is under so much stress, always in the end comes back to the exploitative working conditions, the fact that parents cannot be at home, they have to work until nine, ten, iipm cannot be at home, they have to work until nine, ten, pm at night, the kids essentially having to look after themselves so much of the time stop there is a framework to it, which is you dont like the word bleak, and i, lets use a different word, but its depressing, its grim for these people. Well, its your welcome is the world you live in. With the world that passes you by every time you come into the bbc. As they say, its our world. We are in they say, its our world. We are in the middle of it. And everybody lives of their lives in social context. And i think if they were to make a general criticism, compared to writing or theatre or poetry or music or whatever, cinema often shows characters with no visible means of support. And yet work and family are the two areas where we live our lives. And the experiences of work absolutely affect your life. And im sure, weve never met before, but as a generalisation, im sure your work has affected your family life and the history of your family life and the history of your family connections. No doubt about that. And so therefore the connection between work and families sze kely connection between work and families szekely central to how we live. Sure. I suppose my point, and use that word polemic before, but this is not a film, and may be critical say this about many of your films, it is not a film of the greys, the complexities, it is a film lejoola black and white. For example, we dont see one self employed gig economy worker in the film who is positive about the way theyre working. But you said to me during the beginning of this conversation, you know, there are young people for whom this works pretty well and they like it. In the survey so there are a significant number of people on even o hours contracts who are with that style of working. But they dont appear. But this is the story of one family. I mean, paul laverty who wrote the script, he is a wonderful writer and im hugely fortu nate to wonderful writer and im hugely fortunate to be able to work alongside him. You have worked with him a lot. A quarter of a century. He isa him a lot. A quarter of a century. He is a fantastic rate of and he did the majority of the research. And he was big, he would travel to drivers. He saw them, he bought a sandwich when he went round with one driver. He was still there at the end of a 12 hour shift. He hadnt had time to eat it. He hadnt had time to eat it. He had a bottle in the back of the van because the controlling scanner in his van didnt give him time to go to the lavatory so he had to urinate into a bottle. I mean, this is the reality of hundreds of thousands of peoples lives and to say, oh, well, you should have had this current income you should have had the karakin, thats trivial, to be honest. Lets just had the karakin, thats trivial, to be honest. Letsjust hear these people stories, you know. Its not like a bbc Panorama Programme where you expect to hear both sides of the argument. Unlike the one that was a vicious attack onjeremy corbyn. This isnt a Panorama Programme. This isnt a Panorama Programme. This isnt a Panorama Programme. This is a story of a family. And it is interesting that so many of your films focus on families and individuals who, you know, one way or the other at the bottom or close to the bottom of the pile. Well, they are the working class. And that is the phrase that comes up again and again in the decades of your work, that you feel you are making films about the working class. Has your notion of what the working class is changed over 50 years of filmmaking was yellow well, the central defining characteristic of those who sell their labour without a stake in the profits. That is as far as a stake in the profits. That is as farasa simple a stake in the profits. That is as far as a simple definition. Are they, put it this way, do you feel they, put it this way, do you feel they are oppressed in the same ways today that they were when you set out . When you made kes, for example, a film well know. Well, no, i think the word oppression needs definition. The point of the economy is that people invest in order to extra ct is that people invest in order to extract surplus value from the people who give the labour in order to turn it into profit. Thats how the system works, isnt it . Its about profit from investment, right. Yes . Yeah, it is. If its not profitable it doesnt get investment for stops so thats what it is about. So what youre doing is a critique of capitalism . You dont need to be grudging. That is the basic fact of the system. It is the motor. A summary set, greed is good. And thats how it works. Some people would say that sexploitation. Now you can call that oppression from you can call that oppression from you can call it exploitation, or you can call it a necessary profit motive to make industry work. But it is, nevertheless, the worker doesnt get the value of his labour. Thats the essence of the system. Now, thats changed obviously in the working class has changed in many ways. Working class has changed in many ways. And working class has changed in many ways. And that is what im interested as interested in. The change was up again, any films you may, lets focus on the most recent one, sorry we missed you, the workers in it a pretty homogenous. It sat in the northeast, newcastle, the workers that we learn about, not just the family, but the people around them, are all local people. There are no immigrants really featured in the film at all, which these days in the uk economy, amongst working class people, is unusual, and i just amongst working class people, is unusual, and ijust wonder if you accept that the homogeneity of the working class is not what it was, is changed . Sure. Iwouldnt dispute the fact that we have had immigrant workers and immigrant families that have been here many, many years and would no longer see themselves as immigrants. And if you look you will see there are black workers in the film as well as white workers. And questions of identity are really important now. Not just questions of identity are really important now. Notjust class. And maybe the Brexit Debate that the United Kingdom has been tying itself in knots over for the last three yea rs in knots over for the last three years is a reflection of that. You are raising all kinds of different questions now. Letsjust stick are raising all kinds of different questions now. Lets just stick with one. Im happy to deal with them, but its like throwing sand in your face when you say that. Because brexit is a whole other issue, an argument between two sections in the right, changes from the 62 now, mitch is at the thatcher period when the critical dangers occurred. Your own background is fascinating because you were raised by what you call as a tory working class dad who wa nted call as a tory working class dad who wanted to better himself and wanted you to better yourself. Im not sure id use that word. I think he just wanted, he just wanted a secure life, really, for himself and for me. But, interestingly, thanks to your gifts, academic and other, you went to Grammar School, you went to oxford, you trade in the law. I mean, you, actually were a great example of upward social mobility. And so when we talk about the working class and your thoughts on it over a 50 year span, it seems to me you are looking at the working class from roots which were quite working class, but where you have actually moved somewhere very different. And ijust wonder how much you feel you know about todays working class. Well, again, use phrases i have to challenge. Upward social mobility, that was the problem with Grammar Schools, because i was in a medium sized Industrial Town in the midlands. There was virtually no middle class. And there was a selection system at age 11, where 60 boys. I am selection system at age 11, where 60 boys. Iama selection system at age 11, where 60 boys. I am a Grammar School boy, too. 0k. Boys. I am a Grammar School boy, too. Ok. 60 boys come out population of 70,000 people. 60 boys only, at age 11, were told you may go to university. The rest were told, you are finished at 16. Now, thats a price. The point of the developing society is that everyone moves up. I get it. My question was. Crosstalk. You were separated off at 11, and then when you went to oxford university. 19, i went to national service, plunged into a barix of 22 lads from all over the country and i learned more. Fair point, you did military service, but you then went to oxford. And i learned a hell of a lot there, as much as i did in the dreaming spires. Butjust as you would address my point, how easy is it, to be sure that you have the authentic pulse of todays working people when by definition, you are a successful, middle class person. People when by definition, you are a successful, middleclass person. Are you a journalist . I am. So how do you a journalist . I am. So how do you stay in touch . I stay in touch by reporting, by visiting, by trying to see what is happening around me. Exactly. You a good journalist. I do the same. So, i do the same. But your role is somewhat different. You tell fictional stories. You are trying to make points stop you burn with passion, as we have discussed from the very beginning of this interview. You are challenging meyer, and the people i work with, ability to connect and listen to people. I am saying to you, that is a talent that i should share with journalists, and the key staying in touch as listening, is recognising common humanity, is understanding the choices they have. It is just being with people, and if you cant empathise and understand, then you cant work. How do writers write. How does anyone engage with the world around them . You have to listen, you have to understand. You have to be in their position. You have to be in their position. You have to be in their position. You have to have known enough of the world is to recognise that you are not an anthropologist. You are someone who stands in solidarity. And i think obviously, if you can do that, you can do it. If you cant do it, you cant. And do you think the way you have chosen to make movies, a very specific way, a lot of people say i can tell within two minutes whether i watching a ken loach film or not, is that a very important pa rt or not, is that a very important part of. I dont know if the word is authenticity, but the genuineness of what you do . Because you very rarely use big name actors. You often use actors who have hardly acted on screen at all before. And interestingly, in this latest film, the amazingly parties played by a quy the amazingly parties played by a guy who, for years, was a plumber, working in the service economy. And heres your lead actor. How important is that element in what you do . Well, youjust try important is that element in what you do . Well, you just try to important is that element in what you do . Well, youjust try to be authentic, really. And find people who the audience will care about. The actors in the film have got to be able to make a fictional situation believable, and credible. They have got to bring it to life. Now, thats acting. Anybodys definition, thats acting. And they are bloodied good actors, right . So i dont patronise them calling them non actors or any of that. But finding authenticity is important, because you want to be able to communicate to the audience, hey, these people could really be doing thisjob. They these people could really be doing this job. They know how to do it. There is a truth in what they are doing, because the work, the actual physical work, is part of the story. So you dont have to do it with back projection and all the tricks of the film business to pretend they are driving, or pretend they are a character or something, they are actually doing it. That connection to the work is part of what the film is about. Your relationship with the wider movie industry fascinates me, because you are the sort of antithesis of everything that many people think of in the movie business. And it strikes me that when you have on your big awards a rts when you have on your big awards arts cannes, you go off there onto the red carpet, you hobnob with the a listers and the celebrities under the studio moguls. I dont hobnob with anyone where did you get that idea . Ok, i am exaggerating. You are exaggerating. My question is based on the sort of disconnects, in a way. You adore your industry, your door making films, but it seems you have nothing in common with the with so much of what your industry is about. Thats fairly true, yes. The interesting thing. The interesting thing is the screenings, the people who know the stories of the people