Hello. Welcome to dateline london. Im carrie gracie. This week he says his style is modern president ial, but will impeachment hearings leave the American Public agreeing with donald trump on that . Pushed to the brink of total breakdown grim warnings from hong kongs police. And this weeks tv pictures may look like apocalypse now, but climate Scientists Say these fires and floods are just the start. So, how are politicians framing their message on averting an apocalypse ahead 7 my guests today chinese writer diane wei liang, american broadcasterjef mcallister, Stefanie Bolzen of german newspaper die welt and portuguese writer eunice goes. Thank you all so much for coming in. Now, for most politicians, it wouldve been a day to hide. A former ambassador gave startling evidence against his administration and a former close adviser was convicted on counts of lying to congress, obstruction and witness tampering. But this is donald trump were talking about, and instead of hiding, the us president took to twitter to undermine the former ambassador to ukraine even as she delivered her testimony in congress. So, is mr trump still teflon with his supporters, or will his enemies succeed in tarnishing that modern president ial over the course of these impeachment hearings . Jef, start us off. What did you make so far . Well, i think its useful to stand back a little bit because trump is so unusual. Its very easy to go right into the horse race. Is he up, is he down . Is he going to do well in impeachment or badly . But lets just stand back to think about who this guy is. 12,000 lies since hes been president. Hes had his personal lawyer go to jail. Who said it was 12,000 . The washington post, and well acknowledged. His Campaign Manager went to jail, the deputy went to jail, his National Security adviser, now his good friend, long time associate, the guy who was conduit to the russians on getting the e mails from wikileaks, roger stone, who has a tattoo of nixon on his back. I mean, this is who he is. And so, ok, now lets go to this strange thing of impeachment. Is there any doubt possible left from his own transcript of the call from all the interlocking witnesses, Good American bureaucrats without any particular axe to grind backed up by whats going on ukraine. Clearly, he tried to pressure ukraine into giving him dirt that doesnt appear to exist onjoe biden in return for getting the aid that congress appropriated. With any other president , everybody would say of course its impeachable, but thats not donald trump, youre right. And one of the ways, he says its all hearsay because he wont let his own people testify. Thats obstruction. Also, again, it becomes a big blur of politics. So, the polls show now a margin in favour of impeachment, but not growing, decreasing very much. I think the democrats hope that the humanity of the people they are asking to testify before the cameras, like ambassador yovanovitch and the others who seem like decent people and, clearly, have been put in an impossible situation by trump and are being defended by republicans with funny conspiracy theories and attacks that dont really add up, that this will, in the end, turn suburban women and others who are peel offable from the Trump Coalition from 2016 into the democratic camp for the election if they cant actually turn the senate into wanting to vote two thirds to impeach him. Diane, your thoughts. Youve just come back from the us. Yes, and, in fact, i was in california, which is a very strong liberal state, and so their people are already convinced that what he is doing is an impeachable offence. However, if we look at the process, and there isnt the numbers in the senate that will push this through. Whats interesting is its not california. Its the swing states. Its wisconsin, arizona, pennsylvania, florida. If you look at the voters, the polling are showing actually that 53 are against impeaching donald trump. So, what this process is doing is its a legal issue, however, its very much a political issue. The democrats are hoping the public hearing will generate evidence that people have been asking for, sway some of the voters in the election thats coming up. And at the moment, it doesnt seem to be working. Hopefully, they will bring more witnesses to testify. So, in a way, its very political and will come down to the swing states. So, eunice, youre a professor of politics. Weve just heard jef and dianne both looking at the electoral policies of this, but there are other audiences as well. I mean, inside the us federal administration, theres the state department. We heard the former ambassador to the ukraine on friday talking about being discredited, talking about the hijacking of us Foreign Policy in ukraine. How damaging is all of this to morale of diplomats do we think, to Public Officials . I think it is very, very damaging. She made a comment that the whole process was hollowing out the whole Civil Service system in the United States and there are i think people asking those diplomats are asking themselves, am i putting myself in danger by refusing to do things that are illegal . Diplomats are not supposed to meddle in the domestic politics of their own countries, and the request to interfere, to dig dirt onjoe biden this was clearly a breach of what a diplomat should be asked to do. They can do other things for the diplomacy of the state, but to help a president , the electoral possibilities of a president , that is not within the realm of the job of a diplomat. And yet i suppose they might feel now that theyre been weaponised by the other side by being hauled in to these public testimonies in congress. Possibly, but they didnt have any chance given the obstruction of the Trump Administration in terms of providing witnesses to these hearings. And, in fact, the professional Foreign Service has been empowered by the model that has been shown by yovanovitch and other Public Servants they feel actually inspired. I mean, theres a lot of i talked to diplomats and there are crowdfunding pages to help pay their legal fees that a lot of diplomats are sending money to, because they think heres somebody standing up for the values of diplomacy that eunice was talking about. And i think the most worrying thing of all of this is that of course constitutionalists, diplomats and so on are looking at what the Trump Administration of is doing in terms of undermining the different institutions that are absolutely necessary for the maintenance of democracy in the United States. But this is too niche for most voters in the United States. The election will be roughly in a years time, so no one will remember this. So this is quite a fundamental story a president asking diplomats to politicise themselves, to do the dirtyjob of preparing their electoral campaigns, and this is something thats not part of theirjob descriptions, and yet this is too technical, this is too niche for ordinary voters to essentially then to make an assessment did the president act in a legal manner, in a constitutional manner or not . Well, its not too technical, stefanie, i suppose, for foreign governments, and weve talked about the voters and weve talked about the Public Officials in the us. But what are foreign governments going to make of what they see here, and how are they going to act upon the information that they hear . Well, i think in general, its important to have in mind that this has all consequences far beyond the us. If you think about the fact that the us president , for very well, various own interests, is holding back military aid to the ukraine. Its a big its a most important military aid that the ukraine gets of us 1. 5 billion of which 400 are now frozen, as far as i understand. This is destabilising a region where 13,000 people have died already in a conflict. And that is something that european governments look at washington look at donald trump, they have now seen so many erratic decisions in syria. Now, this is completely domestically driven decisions, and that makes them feel very nervous about what it means, especially in europe, because its an incentive for russia to maybe do something in ukraine because theres a vacuum created by completely national personal interests of the us president. Well, these impeachment hearings will of course continue, so we will have the opportunity to come back to them, but weve got a packed program, so were going to move on now. And its been another terrible week in hong kong. 0ne protester was shot by police, one government sympathiser was set on fire by protesters, one 70 year old bystander died after being hit with a brick, a University Campus was turned into a battlefield and the economy went into recession. Im not even finished. The chinese president warned that hong kongs political arrangements were under threat and the police warned that law and order was on the brink of collapse. Diane, your assessment . Well, i think thats pretty accurate of whats happening in hong kong. For anybody observing hong kong for the past six months and being on the ground in hong kong or in beijing, and probably the consensus is there isnt a solution in sight. Whats significant is with the violence escalating in hong kong, we are seeing chinese mainland students who have been studying in hong kong packing up and going home. Ive seen footage of trains going into shenzhen packed with people and theyre leaving hong kong. Theyre chinese residents, some expats working for multinationals, they are leaving or considering leaving. So, hong kong is in this particular dangerous situation and we probably are looking at the sort of violence escalating. What does that mean for hong kong . Whats significant is what xijinping had said, that one country, two systems is under threat. Now, one country, two systems, just for anyone who cant remember what that slogan actually means it actually means the kind of limited autonomy and freedoms that hong kong has distinct from the rest of china. Correct. Yes, and when hong kong was handed over to china, that was agreed with the british government. And back then, the paramount leader, deng xiaoping, that hong kong will stay for 50 years and its own sort of ecosystem not being part of china. In fact, recently, there had been discussions of revisiting that idea, that china thinks that was unnecessary. That policy was because china back then lacked confidence as an economic power. Now, china believes hong kong does not need one country, two systems. Hong kong can prosper under the chinese system. So youre basically saying that xijinping is saying, this no longer works, were going to go to one country, 0ne system and apply that in hong kong as well . Even people in hong kong now believe that the integration of hong kong into china will be escalated after this event. But how fast, at what pace . Thats the question. Lets get some other answers on that. Eunice, you look at comparative Politics Around the world. I mean, weve heard over the course of the past week the protesters blaming the excesses of the police, the police blaming the excesses of the protesters. Do you see any middle ground, and where would it come from . There is no middle in hong kong, were not seeing any middle ground. 0n the other hand, we have beijing and xi jinpings statement two days ago. I think they signal that Mainland China is getting ready to take some action. And the only parallels that i can think of is prague spring, hungarian uprising in 1956 where, ultimately, moscow came in with their tanks and put an end to what kind of autonomy those countries had. So, i think that what we have because there is no middle ground in the protest what weve seen is the polarisation of positions. The Hong Kong Government has been unable to with the tiny concessions that were made has been unable to calm the situation and also to create a galvanising position of people supporting their own government. 0n the other hand, the students have radicalised their actions. So, they also theyre going to lose sympathy with the radicalisation of their so theres no theres a kind of a vacuum, and that vacuum may very well be occupied by the Chinese Government. Very worrying analysis. Stefanie, where do you view this as going . Well, the growing demands, of course, from outside governments say, why is it not possible to have an independent investigation into this is what the protesters have wanted for a long time. And, of course, you get the impression that Mainland China doesnt want it. So the big question is, why do they not go down the road of reconciliation or trying to calm down the situation . That comes back to, well, the fear that, actually, this is going to escalate deliberately. And, jef, just turning to the recession point. Global business i mean, hong kong is such a hugely important hub for the global economy. What do you see others, from a business perspective, doing now in the light of this kind of analysis and the recession, which is now a fact . The hang seng index down 5 this week, big law forms and global big law firms and Global Players are keeping their people out, having them work from home, maybe deciding its not such an attractive place to do business anymore. Do we i mean, its one of those funny, accumulative things. If it becomes less prosperous because of the protests, in a way, then its no longer the golden egg from the goose and it has less importance to china, in a perverse way. I think its embarrassing for china to have to use troops and its bad in terms of a long term image of china, and for unification with taiwan as well. But what kind of humiliation are they going to take . Humiliation of people saying that theyre not going to pay any attention to china . Or the humiliation that comes from having to use force . And i think in the end, if it comes down to a choice between those two, its gonna be we are gonna run our own territory as were gonna get it back in 2047 anyway there is another narrative here in terms of the financial hub. Alibaba, which is the most successful chinese tech company, is planning a 1. 3 billion ipo in hong kong in the coming days. So in chinas eyes, hong kong can prosper as part of china, part of the chinese financial hub, and that works. Thank you all on that story. Now, were going to move on, and fire, flood and plague venice declared a state of emergency this week after the worst floods in half a century, eastern australia burned in bushfires, china saw plague deaths, Greta Thunberg boarded another sailing boat to return from the us to europe for next months Un Climate Conference in madrid, and in the british general election, flood response became one of the hot campaigning issues of the week. So, lets look at how politicians are framing their message on Climate Change. Stefanie, i want you to start on this one. Take a look at the uk campaign. Of course, weve seen a lot of flooding over the past fortnight and flood response has become a hot topic with a lot of criticism of the government. How are politicians shaping this message . Well, i think in the case of boris johnson, that wasnt a very happy week because he was seen as arriving to see, or to help with the floods far too late. He was actually attacked. It was a really bad image for him this week, so it was not a very successful week. In terms of Climate Change, environmental policies, i dont see it is such a big topic in the British Campaign which is surprising because the extinction rebellion, which is such a successful movement, actually comes from here, has been very fierce here, very popular. And, in fact, Climate Change is a top priority when the public are asked what are their urgent priorities. Yes. If i compare it to my own country, where Climate Change is now the top priority, if you ask people, two thirds say this is the biggest danger for our existence. The green party in germany is now topping all the polls and its quite likely, or possible, that after the next general election, there will be a green party leading the german government. And yet, i suppose, in the uk, coming back to the comparison, the uk has a first past the post electoral system, so the green party struggles to make any mileage at all despite its votes. Yeah, and so, it will be very difficult in the british political system to have a purely green driven policy being really part of the power in britain. And i think that i dont see so far very convincing ideas, neither from labour, nor the conservatives, that can compare to the challenges of that. Some of course, the ideas we have seen weve big Climate Change funds, weve seen Tree Planting projects, weve seen a pledge for Carbon Neutral by 2050. But are you saying that this is a less aspirational offer than you are getting, for example, in germany . It is. And i think the reason is because its very costly. If you the german governmentjust this week has adopted a new law, or a climate package, and they had to very clearly say, this is going to cost each consumer more for their heating, more forflying the further you fly, the more you have to pay. And thats something in an Election Campaign you dont want to say. Ithink. Eunice. I think labour, on this, has they has announced a Green New Deal and their plans have been attacked on the grounds of being very ambitious, theyre going to be extremely radical, they will involve Massive Public investment in renewable energies, and so on. Its tied up with universal basic income proposals and so on, which is part of other Green New Deals that have been proposed elsewhere alexandria 0casio cortez in the United States and even the green party here in united ki