I will be back at the top of the hour with more newsday with sharanjit. Now on bbc news, its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Its 18 years since alqaedas 9 11 attack on the United States. The impact still reverberate even as memories fade. The Us Government responded by adopting a counterterrorist strategy embracing enhanced interrogation, that was a euphemism for torture. We know what happened because of the work of my guest today, danieljones, who led a six year investigation into the caas darkest secrets. Now his story has been turned into a movie, but did america long ago sees to care . Cease. Danieljones, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. A film has just come out betraying your battle to write this report into what the caa did and its counter tourism operations up 9 11 cia. It was sometime ago, but is it you like Unfinished Business to you . In so many ways, the terms of how the United States responded to 9 11 from a policy perspective on the war on terror is still unfolding and impacting how we buy these battles today with isis and other foreign adversaries. But this report of yours, it was sort of six years in the writing and in the battling to get at least a summary of it published and before the eyes of the American Public. But that has happened. And i just American Public. But that has happened. And ijust wonder whether you feel actually some elements of this story remain unsold . Absolutely. So it was actually a seven year journey. It absolutely. So it was actually a seven yearjourney. It began after it came to light that the cia had destroyed interrogation videotapes of detainees in its custody and that they had destroyed his tapes in 2005 over the objections of cia leadership, over objections of the bush white house. When it came to light into thousand and seven, the Senate Intelligence committee where i worked because they brought investigation into what would have been on those dates. At the same time, the Bush Administration launched a criminal investigation into the caa for the destruction, and you may remember the commission upon report. The enquiry basically said the report had engaged in destruction of evidence when they destroyed those dates. New, despite the fact the tapes were destroyed, you gathered information that told you pretty clearly what had happened. Particularly in the interrogation of one senior alqaeda operative, abu zu baydah, interrogation of one senior alqaeda operative, abu zubaydah, he was subjected to some of the most brutal forms of interrogation. Did you from the beginning have no doubt in your own mind that this amounted to torture . Own mind that this amounted to torture . Well, the tasking that i was provided with was with the senators on that committee to find out the facts. And eventually the report provided 6. 3 million pages of their own classified records on this programme. Far beyond abu zubaydah. Far beyond. More than the hundreds of detainees you are aware of. At least 119 detainees and we suspect there are more. 6. 3 million pages is an unprecedented document production from the cia, that is equivalent to two urban library is of material. We had tens of thousands of pages just on abu zubaydah, the first cia detainees captured in 2003 alone. On abu zubaydah, the first cia detainees captured in 2003 alonelj suppose the question many will want to reflect upon is your reaction, when you sawjust how graphic and how detailed the caa account of its own torture techniques was. Cia. We were surprise the tapes were destroyed. We suspected the written records will not be as robustly detailed, but in fact they were. That is because the people conducting these interrogations that the detention site wanted cia take orders dinner exact at what they we re orders dinner exact at what they were doing, right . They werent being hung out to dry. They werent ashamed of it, they were just following orders. So what we got in the thousands of pages were minute by minute details of what was happening to abu zubaydah, this first detainees. 6 06 p. M. , brought into a small compensate box. 6 30pm, attached to a water board. 6 32 pm, attached to a water board. 6 32 p. M. , waterboarding begins. That was the type of detail in these records. And in the course of cataloguing all of this, it seems you portrayed to your Senate Committee a picture of a man who was almost literally broken. Yes. He became, described as a guy who essentially would come at the click of a fingers like a dog, such was the degree his mind had been destroyed. And he had over days and days been held in the most horrifying conditions. Thats right. He was originally captured in spring. And april to earlyjune he was interrogated largely by the vertebral bureau of investigation agents using Law Enforcement techniques, really federal bureau of investigation. And in mid june he was put into cia investigation. They went to the department ofjustice, president bush, and they try to get permission to use what would become enhanced interrogation techniques, which you rightfully said is a euphemism for torture. It took 47 days to get that policy approval and legal approval. During a period of time abu zubaydah was in a small cage and he wasnt asked any questions stop the first day of interrogations using these techniques, within six hours abu zubaydah techniques, within six hours abu zu baydah was what techniques, within six hours abu zubaydah was what avoided. Waterboarding became a feature of the systemic abuse. Thats right. Coloured Sheikh Mohammed was perhaps the most famous recipient of waterboarding, multiple occasions. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. I want to introduce a clip of the report, where you are betrayed by adam driver. It captures the passion that you have about why this torture you are revealing is utterly counter productive. And it is known as iet. Everything they attribute to iet they already had, from foreign sources, other governments and other methods was claim they save lives but what they did was make it impossible to prosecute a mass murderer like asm because of what we did to him. If it ever came out in a court of law the case is over. The quy court of law the case is over. The guy planned 9 11 and instead of going to do the rest of his life the cia turned him into a recruiting tool for a war we are still fighting its a movie. Its fiction ina way, fighting its a movie. Its fiction in a way, but it is based upon you. Were you really as completely impassioned as adam drivers performance would suggest . Its important to reiterate i was just a starter on the committee was that if the senators who i worked for who are responsible for this report, ultimately and responsible for signing onto it and making it public. They were all passionate about not only documenting this part of us history, but exposing it. We wa nt to of us history, but exposing it. We want to make sure it doesnt happen again, and two, for the United States to be able to claim some sense of moral authority and human rights sphere. Lets think about what your reports impact was in the United States. You insist that not only does it reveal the degree to which the cia conducted torture, then lied about it and covered it up, but you then lied about it and covered it but you go then lied about it and covered it up, but you go further and you say it is clear that the torture didnt work and the cia knew that it didnt work. That is somewhat more controversial. Explained to me how you can be so sure that the evidence shows none of this enhanced derogation yielded useful information interrogation . Derogation yielded useful information interrogation . We started with what the caa said, what did the cia told the department of justice about the effectiveness of these techniques the cia. Why they told president bush these techniques were necessary. The basically came back to these ten plots and captures where cia said without torture we would not have got a without torture we would not have gota man without torture we would not have got a man called is a pity, we would not have got the second waiter raised plots against the United States. So we took the cia at their word and we use those 6. 3 million pages of records together and build the story. We looked at 20 cases altogether, 20 of the most frequently cited cases that said without eits this person would not have been caught or captured. And in all 20 cases it was not that eits we re all 20 cases it was not that eits were responsible, but other intelligence methods from people governments provided. Some of these key suspects are claimed to have given us Vital Information, and the extent to which that vital in basecase and Vital Information came, was unknowable, some have said. This dies me notes. The department ofjustice said these techniques are necessary because we cannot obtain this intelligence any other way. So they called it otherwise unavailable intelligence, which means cia cant get it from a human source or from reading your e mail or pulling up your phone calls out of the sky. They need to torture in order to get this data. And they provided examples to president bush and the department of justice in congress. They said without torture we would never have learned about ho apr. So we went through caa records and we set how did you learn about him we learn about it in 2001. In regards to the second wave plight, without ksm, without waterboarding, we would never have stopped the plot without ksm. But he was captured in march, 2003. There was a White House Press statement about a description of a second wave plight in 2002. The timelines do not match. So youre saying we dont need to pin it on himself but repeatedly over the yea rs himself but repeatedly over the years the caa lied and lied and lied, not only about what they did but also them covering it up, and it seems you feel that they went out of their way to intimidate you to try to close down your investigation cia. Even at one point they accuse you of hacking into their computers and taking unauthorised information, there was even talk of a criminal prosecution against you. So ijust wonder upon reflection have you com pletely lost wonder upon reflection have you completely lost faith in the cia, the intelligence agency, notjust them but perhaps Going Forward . Lets be clear. The cia is like any other organisation. It has people with different ideas and opinions. Many of the same people that should be said, who were involved when you are investigating a steel actually in very senior positions in the cia today. Thats absolutely true. And one of the two people at the department ofjustice who were responsible for the unlawful destruction of these tapes was a man called Jose Rodriguez who wrote a book promoting the torture programme, and a woman named gina hassell, director of the cia. She is now running the cia and withdrew a nomination process when she was asked many questions about enhanced interrogation, she said we no longer used torture and she also refused to draw any moral conclusions about what had happened gina haspel was not what does that tell you . We are ina not what does that tell you . We are in a crisis of accountability in the United States right now. When you look at this programme, even that failure to detect 9 11, no one was held accountable for that, i detainee died in 2003, no one was held accountable for that. The person they identified as the most accountable for that debt was suggested that he should get a performance bonus at the end of the year. When it was concluded that the cia had provided misinformation to president bush, no one was held accountable. But to that extent then, weve talked about the exhaustive work you did over a six yearspan, exhaustive work you did over a six year span, isnt the stark truth that that report, when it came out failed to have the impact that you hoped and expected it for . And frankly has already been forgotten . There is no doubt about that. We we re there is no doubt about that. We were front page news all over the world for 2h hours. In the next day we werent. And it was gone. And thats importance of storytelling in film, with scott burns, the writer and director of the film the report, it was really important to bring this dry government document to a wider audience was an adam driver, and john how did this on a shoestring budget for the ability not only the American People but they were needed to know the story. It but lets stick with this idea of the American People needing to know, they did know a lot from very early on and the torture memos, when the memos from the white house came out which show the degree to which president bush in the white house tea m president bush in the White House Team had authorised the enhanced interrogations and said, dont worry about the geneva conventions, weve squared it off, youre not going to be doing anything illegal, the American Public is known for an awful long time about the way in which this chain of command for this policy went to the very top and yet let us be honest, they dont seem to really care. Well, to be fair, this is not a partisan report on what the report shows is that the cia misled the Bush Administration and the department ofjustice. The Bush Administration and the department of justice. Example, these torture memos say the techniques will be used in a leased coercive method and detail his will a lwa ys coercive method and detail his will always be given an opportunityjust to talk without being subjected to torture. That is completely inconsistent with what we found in cia records. Abu zubaydah was what aborted within six hours. Ksm was tortured in on his first day. You can forensically outline what happened and why it contravenes International Law but i come back to the American People and actually, im going to quote to you words from some of the democrats who at the time of 9 11, lets forget republicans who were very much inclined to go for an aggressive counterterrorist policy, but their president but even democrats at the time were absolutely saying, take the gloves. We do whatever it takes to stop these terrorists. Here is nancy pelosi after 9 11, she said no more business as usual. We have to do things that historically we havent wanted to do to protect ourselves and your own chief of the Senate Intelligence committee, jay rockefeller, who you worked for in the early years, he said when asked if khalid Sheikh Mohammed said he should be sent to countries without torture laughed and said he wouldnt rule it out, he said i will take nothing of the that man is concerned because he has killed hundreds of americans. That is the context, that is the way america has seen this story from the very beginning. Well, i would say, again, people would talk tough after 9 11, they wanted our intelligence professionals to do what works and what is effective and going through 6. 3 million pages of records, torture does not work, it leads to false answers and leads to basically unreliable information from these detainees and we found time and time again the best way to get reliable information was reportedly. Why then, if you are so sure the evidence points to torture frankly being a waste of time and resources , frankly being a waste of time and resources, why does torture happen, not just as weve resources, why does torture happen, notjust as weve recorded historically in the United States during this period but in so many countries around the world. Are all of these different intelligence agencies and Security Systems utterly and completely wrong . Its absolutely a plague that is affected humanity for a very long time but we know it doesnt work, the science is not there. The cia themselves. So everybody, one can list governments and regimes around the world and without being pejorative, you can talk about what happens in china and russia and countries in the middle east of many different stripes, right around the world we know from extensive independent investigation torture is used to extra ct investigation torture is used to extract information. I put it to you again, all of these experts in counterterrorist completely and utterly wrong . What you get a false confessions or propaganda. If i torture you and i want you to say that you dont work for the bbc, you work for, i dont know, Apple Computers, i will torture when up and you will say yes, i work for Apple Computers are not the bbc. You get exa ctly Apple Computers are not the bbc. You get exactly what you want but you dont get reliable intelligence. Look at ksm, they water boarded ksm 183 times and he gave up a pot of African Americans in montana who we re African Americans in montana who were going to start forest fires which was all fabricated. That is one of the successes which interrogators would say we disrupted the spot, it never happened. What is happening now . You work in advocacy and are concerned with human rights and are concerned with human rights and accountability and Good Governance in the United States so what is happening in the counterterrorist element of the National Security institutions in America Today . Well, i think there are America Today . Well, i think there a re lessons America Today . Well, i think there are Lessons Learned from what happened post 9 11. When this report came out,