Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. President biden has reportedly paused arms sales to saudi arabia as his administration reviews relations with his long time strategic ally. Not long ago, candidate biden described the kingdom as a pariah, but is there any prospect of external or internal pressure challenging the authority of saudi arabias De Facto Leader, Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman . Well, my guest is exiled saudi opposition activist, madawi al rasheed. What next for saudi arabia reform, repression or maybe both . Madawi al rasheed, welcome to hardtalk. Hello. You have become one of the highest profile saudi critics of Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman. I just wonder how you felt a couple of weeks ago when we saw the crown prince so warmly welcomed at the World Economic forum, the online davos event, where he was selling saudi arabia as an Investment Opportunity for the entire world. What did you make of that . Well, its a familiar image and a familiar trick. Saudi arabia has actually got away with murder on several occasions, the last of which was on the 2nd of october, 2018, whenJamal Khashoggi was murdered in the saudi consulate in istanbul. So, im not surprised, buti think the pressure is mounting. Many activists who are saudi but they are now in exile have put up several platforms and they have mobilised, and i think they have been successful in changing Public Opinion about the repression that was on in saudi arabia. However, im yet to see A Change Of Heart and mind among western governments, especially partners and allies of the saudi regime. I guess that is what lies behind my opening question. The fact is the people that davos invite to their forum may have power and influence around the world, and quite clearly, Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman remains an extremely powerful man. Youve been running a campaign for years now, trying to get the world to see him as a repressor rather than a reformer, and i have to say to you, it doesnt appear to be working. I think it is working, and we have seen a lot of comments and promises by the new american administration. President biden made it clear that hes not going to tolerate the behaviour of the saudi crown prince, especially outside the country. Also, there are promises that the cia report that sort of remained dormant during the presidency of donald trump might actually be released to the public, and that is a step towards justice. The campaign that myself and many other saudis are running is not about invading saudi arabia, its about using legal mechanisms in order to deter and change the behaviour of the crown prince over the coming months. And therefore, we look forward to more of these legal measures, such as, for example, the recent decision by the Biden Administration to freeze all arms sales to saudi arabia, and that is obviously driven by the campaign that many, many saudis and many Human Rights Organisations and the United Nations have been launching in order to seekjustice. Not only for the murder ofJamal Khashoggi, but also for the detention, torture, beheading of activists inside saudi arabia. Well, you refer to what you called a freeze of us arms sales to saudi arabia to be honest with you, the way its being reported from official sources in washington it sounds more like a temporary pause right now than any long term freeze. But isnt it the truth that whatever the talk of a review coming from the Biden Administration, money talks and money talks very loud. . Talks very loud . And when the crown prince says there is 6 trillion worth of Investment Opportunities in his new cities and new Tourist Regions that he says are going to open up saudi arabia to the entire world, hes got an extraordinarily powerful carrot to dangle before, notjust the politicians, but the Business Leaders of the world. Well, this has been going on for the last four years, but we havent seen it happen. Saudi arabia today had seen the lowest level of Foreign Investment in the country, and this is not caused by the pandemic. Its caused by events that had preceded the pandemic, and some of them were recorded since 2017, such as the detention of Mohammed Bin Salman� s relatives in the ritz carlton, followed by a campaign of beheading saudi arabia. In 2016, we had 47 people in one day, and its a cumulative process. And the world is probably beginning to wake up and see that the business opportunities, the Investment Opportunities, the Investment Opportunities are not going to happen if there is no change of behaviour at the top level. Who would actually feel safe to put all his money in a country where you can be arrested for allegations regarding corruption . Like what happened in 2017, when more than a dozen princes and businessmen were put in a hotel and stayed there and did not get released until they paid a ransom money. So, we have monitored that saudi arabia now is receiving the lowest level of Foreign Direct Investment in the country, and this is not what Mohammed Bin Salman expected because these campaigns were meant to charm and create a positive image about saudi arabia as a safe haven. � , �. , haven. But isnt the danger, madawi alrasheed, haven. But isnt the danger, madawi alrasheed, that i haven. But isnt the danger, i madawi alrasheed, that you madawi al rasheed, that you issue all of this condemnation of nbs and his strategy, but what saudi arabians inside the country want is good jobs and prosperity. What mbs appears to be offering is a massive expansion of the saudi economy, and the danger you run is you appear to be sort of peddling this liberal line about saudis future from outside the country. You dont have to live inside the country and experience the economy there, and saudi arabians inside our calling to surveys, as far as we can read them, young saudi � s are desperate for more prosperity. s are desperate for more prosperity s are desperate for more prosperity. s are desperate for more roseri. ,. ,. , prosperity. Stephen, allow me to disagree prosperity. Stephen, allow me to disagree here. Prosperity. Stephen, allow me to disagree here. I prosperity. Stephen, allow me to disagree here. Ithink prosperity. Stephen, allow me to disagree here. I think it prosperity. Stephen, allow me to disagree here. I think it is. To disagree here. I think it is very, very simplistic to say saudis, unlike other Men And Women in the world, only want food. I think there is a twist to this kind of statement. I do not know why in the west we dont see saudis as people longing for Freedom Of Speech or political representation, longing for a civil society. If you want the evidence for that, you want the evidence for that, you only need to look inside saudi prison, and you will see a whole range of activists. Those who call for democracy, those who call for civil society. I can give you hundreds of examples. In fact, in my recent book, i document the biographies of all those who have actually fled the country and sought political asylum in places as far as canada. The United States, and london, where we are, there are hundreds of them. So why havent they just stayed at home and look forjobs and just married and settled in their families . So, it is very, very simplistic to say saudis just want food and jobs at. I do simplistic to say saudis ust want food and jobs at. Want food and obs at. I do not doubt for want food and obs at. I do not doubt for one want food and jobs at. I do not doubt for one second want food and jobs at. I do not doubt for one second that doubt for one second that saudis also want freedom from repression. The question is how you change saudi society. Do you change saudi society. Do you do it gradually through a liberalisation which is led by an authoritarian government, or do you, as your National Assembly party seems to believe, do you dismantle the monarchy, go for an entirely new democratic model, one person, one vote, installed in saudi arabia without any gradualism whatsoever . Many saudis looking at the changes they have been in recent years, for example, women are now driving. People are now going to the cinema, they are enjoying music concerts, they are seeing an opening up of their economy and new ways. Maybe they would preferred the gradualism rather than your revolution. Revolution. First of all, the national revolution. First of all, the National Assembly revolution. First of all, the National Assembly party. Revolution. First of all, the i National Assembly party does not call for revolution. In fact, it calls for maintaining the security of saudis and honouring the International Relations that the saudi regime has developed with the whole world. Iii has developed with the whole world. Ii i has developed with the whole world. , has developed with the whole world. , world. If i can ust stop you there world. If i can just stop you there because world. If i can just stop you there because its world. If i can just stop you | there because its important world. If i can just stop you there because its important we get this straight. I looked at your Launch Document of the party last autumn. You put this document out. You said, we are looking for a saudi arabia where all citizens are equal under the law without any discrimination, stressing the resources of the kingdom belong to all its citizens, we want a fully elected parliament that has legislative and oversight powers over all of the states executive institutions. I put it to you, given how saudi arabia works today as an absolute monarchy, what you lay out there is nothing short Of A Revolution. Out there is nothing short Of A Revolution revolution. Well, its the saudi revolution. Well, its the saudi if revolution. Well, its the saudi if the revolution. Well, its the saudi if the regime i revolution. Well, its the saudi if the regime remains saudi if the regime remains resistant for any calls, starting serious political reform, i think the revolution will be inevitable. Because we have a generation that does not just wantjobs and cinema and circus and driving, the reason why women activists were put in prison is because there call was going beyond the driving wheel. They wanted a serious change in saudi society, and it was the First National opposition to emerge that went beyond sectarian tribal regional divisions in the country. But if the saudi regime ignores these calls for serious political reform, and thinks saudis will accept cinema and driving a car, then i think the system will implode from within. First of all, even thejobs are not from within. First of all, even the jobs are not there. Saudi arabia has one of the highest unemployment figures in the arabian peninsula. It imposed taxes on it population, which is something new sincejuly 2020. It is going to produce all that is only consumed domestically, and therefore, it will not have enough oil to export. Therefore, once you take into consideration the rigidity of the system and the failed initiatives that Mohammed Bin Salman started, and you impose a kind of social liberalisation that is very cosmetic, and most of it is actually personal tastes and right. You choose to go to entertainment, and when the state says that you have to be entertained in a particular circus, then you are getting into this repression. Into this repression. Well, when i listen into this repression. Well, when i listen to into this repression. Well, when i listen to your into this repression. Well, | when i listen to your words into this repression. Well, when i listen to your words and read your condemnation of the authoritarianism of the crown prince in your book, im just wondering whether you pay any heed to the lessons of the arab spring and everything that has happened in countries like egypt since february 2011. We saw so many egyptians on the street so hopeful about their future as a Democratic Civil society, and we have seen those hopes entirely fast. We have seen chaos, and then after chaos, weve seen the return of even more authoritarianism. Do not fear that that could be the future for saudi arabia if people take your Prescription Seriously . People take your Prescription Seriousl . ,. , seriously . Had it not been for the counterrevolutionary seriously . Had it not been for| the counterrevolutionary saudi arabia, the uae and the intervention of other regional powers such as turkey and iran, then this revolution would not have succeeded. Pare then this revolution would not have succeeded. Have succeeded. Are you sure about that . Have succeeded. Are you sure about that . Absolutely. Have succeeded. Are you sure about that . Absolutely. In about that . Absolutely. In 2013, there about that . Absolutely. In 2013, there was about that . Absolutely. In 2013, there was support. About that . Absolutely. In i 2013, there was support from millions of dollars by millions of aid in order to thwart that moment of revolution. But again, saudi arabia intervened in syria and derailed the democratic element in that early month of march 2011. And it led to the sectarian isolation of that democratic impulse, and also to the regime maintaining its power in syria until the resident day. Lets talk about bahrain. Saudi arabia and the rest of the gulf council who pumped the regime in bahrain in order to thwart a democratic revolution, and of course, the intervention of other regional powers. It led to the revolution in bahrain. 0ne to the revolution in bahrain. One thing will happen bin salman has told saudi arabia � s is. He is in your own words a populist nationalist. When it comes to his policies, the war against the who sees in yemen or confronting r. He appears to have a great deal of support from people inside his own country, including the young people of his country. Country, including the young people of his country. Well, if someones people of his country. Well, if someones impression people of his country. Well, if someones impression of people of his country. Well, if. Someones impression of saudi arabia is dependent on social media, i need to remind people that Mohammed Bin Salman controls the social media. He has a farm called the twitter farm where his boss and activists are basically propagandists for the regime. They spread misinformation and it was reported in the international press, and many people. International press, and many peeple people. What about this question people. What about this question of people. What about this question of whether people. What about this question of whether nationalism actually is a powerful force in saudi arabia today, particularly given iran and the hostility iran shows just saudi arabia . There are many People Living inside your country as opposed to you living in exile who actually, quite like this nationalist tone. Nationalist tone. Well, the saudis have nationalist tone. Well, the saudis have to nationalist tone. Well, the saudis have to decide nationalist tone. Well, the l saudis have to decide which version of this nationalism they subscribe to as it changes with the regime interests. Initially, saudi arabia itself was created on the basis of a, Generalising Movement that was so radical that accused everyone of being a bad muslim, and therefore, in order to create a state, they had to abide by the rules of the movement. But that was replaced in the 50s and 60s by islamism. Saudis were told that they are muslims, not to saudis, not arabs, above all muslims. Therefore, they have to afghanistan to save the lives of their brothers. And now, the fashion is a saudi arabia for saudis, and this is really an echo of what trump based his success on. Echo of what trump based his success on echo of what trump based his success on. What makes you so confident that success on. What makes you so confident that after success on. What makes you so confident that after this confident that after this opening review of the relationship that biden is actually going to change anything fundamental about the partnership between the United States and saudi arabia . I think what biden would do is not adopt a massive approach to saudi arabia, because hes busy with his domestic issues. But i will rule out that biden and his administration and Foreign Policy adviser would even think about a Regime Change and saudi arabia. In fact, about a Regime Change and saudi arabia. Infact, the about a Regime Change and saudi arabia. In fact, the national simply party that i founded with six other saudis rules out and objects to any military foreign intervention in saudi arabia, because that has a very, very bad history from iraq to libya and other places. But biden will actually deter. He might use legal mechanisms such as Sanctioning Personalities and saudi arabia, rather than the whole country, which is a really bad approach. He might manage Mohammed Bin Salman in a tighter way than trump had done. Salman in a tighter way than trump had done. Salman in a tighter way than trum had done. ~ ,. ,. , trump had done. Why would he do that