Transcripts For BBCNEWS Inside 20240704

And this week the labour leader keir starmer raised him in Prime Ministers questions, demanding to know whether he would rejoin the Conservative Party whilst Behind The Scenes worried tory mps discuss whether he might return to the front line leading the reform party. Nigel farage, welcome back to political thinking. Thank you. You are back where you like being, arent you . The centre of attention. Well, ive always been a bit of a show off. I mean, there is some truth in that. Yeah, its a funny thing, but i think Current Affairs, politics and Current Affairs in the uk today has such a dearth of personalities that i find myself at the centre of debates, whether im trying to or not, i sort of get dragged into things. There are some people listening to the radio or watching the telly now who are saying, why on earth are they talking to nigel farage . Hes not a party leader. Youve not been elected to anything for a very, very long time. Well, thats not quite true, actually. Who cares what he thinks . Well, thats not quite true, actually, is it . Because in may of 2019, you know, i led a party that had been alive forjust less than six weeks, that won an election, a european election, so dramatic that it forced the Prime Minister to resign immediately. So its not that long ago that i was involved. But look, you know, conventionally we think you have to be in the House Of Commons to change Public Opinion in britain. Thatjust is no longer the case, you know, through social media, through many other things, there are ways that people can people of influence can change the thinking of a country. There you are commentating, watching, and some people think you havent got the guts to go on the pitch. Thats where its difficult. Well, i could level that charge at you. Perfectly fairly. But ive never claimed that i want to change britain, and you do. Ive not argued for anything, i just ask awkward questions. When you say commentating, let me tell you something, right . Theres nobody else in British Politics or active Current Affairs as active on tiktok as i am. Im not using tiktok to comment, im using tiktok to reach young people and say, have you thought of it like this . Have you ever considered that maybe the approach youre being taught at school isnt right . Theres a different point of view. I want to talk to you about why youre not very optimistic any more. You said to me four years ago, im feeling bullish and optimistic about the future. I want this historical moment to lead to a new british renaissance, you said. I believe it can. I still believe it. Are you in danger, by the way, of sounding and not just you, by the way, but lots of brexiteers now, liz truss wasnt one, but shes become one. Suella braverman. Well talk about them. Youre sounding like morrissey from the smiths. I mean, heaven knows youre miserable now you cant stop telling us how miserable everything is, the country is going to the dogs. I mean, the one thing i could never be accused of is being miserable. You know, ive never been miserable. I can be pessimistic on issues, yes, concerned about issues. Im not a pessimist by nature, farfrom it. Im a ludicrous optimist. I mean, who would have spent all those years in ukip unless i had been . Is liz truss right . You sat with her. You interviewed her. At something called cpac, the conservative Political Action committee in washington, dc. And she said, a deep state is running britain. Ok, ill tell you why she said that. The day before, there had been an international panel. I sat next to her. And she said that one of the biggest problems that she had was the quango ocracy. Well, of course, nobody in america understood that. She said thats your equivalent of the deep state. Hence the use of that terminology. Was she right in what she said . You know, i honestly believe that the role of the Bank Of England throughout all of this needs to be deeply questioned. All of this meaning her collapse . Very much so. I mean, to think that the Bank Of England sold gilts on the open market on the eve of that budget it really was an astonishing political intervention. To people who not unlike you, youre a former commodities trader, you work in the city. I know, i know. You think it was a political act to undermine the then Prime Minister who wanted to cut taxes . Absolutely. I have no doubt about it. Ive no doubt about it. And what was interesting about it was that the commitment, the Energy Commitment was massively bigger in terms of financial risk for the country than the cut in taxation. This was the bail out liz truss was promising . Because of the high bills. Yeah, yeah. And so we have the Bank Of England doing this. We had the International Monetary fund in washington saying but they shouldnt be cutting it, the uk shouldnt be cutting taxes. So she has a point. And suella braverman, she said the islamists, the extremists, the anti semites are in charge now. Well, in charge is a rather strong way of putting it. But i do think that the scenes we saw in Parliament Square last week were astonishing. I think the levels of intimidation against mps, Notjust In Westminster but now back in their constituencies is deeply, deeply concerning. Our culture is, you know, nick, you and i can disagree vehemently, if you like, but we settle it, not outside in a fight, we settle it in an election. And provided we have free and fair elections, we accept the result. And theres just been a feeling over the last few weeks that theres now a lobby in this country. And yes, not all, by the way, we say islamists, the agenda might be about palestine there are plenty of middle class white people taking part in those marches as well. So this is not purely a race issue. I want to come back to that issue at greater length. The other day you said something fascinating, something very sexy is going on in British Politics, said nigel farage. How could you be miserable and talking about this sexy thing going on . As i said to you, im never miserable. I might be upset about things. I might wish brexit to be done better, but im never miserable. Whats sexy then . I was commenting on the by Election Results and the rise of reform. I tell you why its sexy and why its interesting. The rise of ukip was very hard won and took quite a long time. It took a very long time, and when ukip got to levels in the polls like this, i mean, i couldnt believe it. You know, wed been battling away for years, wed been building structure, wed been raising money. Reform has done this in a very, very, very short space of time, without much money, without much publicity, and without having a party machine. Youre just back from the united states. Nine days there meeting a man you always describe as your friend, donald trump. Yeah. You met another friend, steve bannon . Yeah. Who was Donald Trumps chief strategist. Hes described himself as a right wing populist nationalist. Yes, he does. And hes described you as a future Prime Minister. Well, steve has all sorts of opinions and some we might agree with and some we might not. But forgive me, he offers you a model, doesnt he . Which is the so called maga movement, make America Great movement, those red Baseball Caps we see on all trump supporters. Before that, what was called the tea party. Yeah. What they did is they effectively took over the big party. Yes. They were separate. Yes. Is that the model youre now pursuing . Well, thats a very interesting question, because, of course, if we had open primaries in this country, then. I mean, i tell you what, if there was an open primary right now, a rerun of the conservative leadership and it was myself against sunak, i think id win. I genuinely think id win amongst conservative members and registered conservative supporters if we had the american system, i would win. Reform, with or without me. And by the way, richard tice is doing very well with it. Very well indeed. Reform is going to get a lot of votes in this next election. I dont know how many minimum four million, five, five and a half million. Its going to get a lot of votes. Itll win a few seats, it wont win very many because unless you break through a big threshold, you cant do it. But there comes a point. There comes a point when a significant chunk of the Conservative Party realise there are no more deals to be done. Theres no more mr nice guy coming from our side of it. We did all that. Theyve let us down. We want to reshape British Politics. And ijust dont see long term how people like myself and richard tice dont finish up in the same Political Party as Jacob Rees Mogg or a suella braverman. Or a liz truss. Of course. There is going to be. This has been talked about, by the way, for decades. But there is going to be a realignment of the centre right of British Politics. Why not get on and do it . Nigel farage, get on, get into politics, Stop Messing About being a commentator, get serious again and do it. Ive got a long track record of getting stuck in. Everything is about timing. You know, i remember as brexit was going wrong, you know, siren voices, particularly in 2018 after the so called chequers deal, everyone said, nigel, if you dont get back involved right now in politics, youre letting the side down. And what did i do . I waited. And i waited and i waited. And i waited for the end of march to come and go. The moment in which we were supposed to leave and which i knew we werent going to leave. And i waited till mid april and launched something that took off like a rocket. Timing is everything. Well, lets talk about what sort of change you want to bring about. I said that steve bannon, Donald Trumps former strategist, friend of yours, described himself as a populist nationalist. Would you use that term to describe yourself . I think nationalist is a very difficult word. I mean, ive always called myself a nationist. Im a nationist. I believe in the nation state. I think that it is the unit. What are you nervous about with nationalist then . I think nationalism is a bit like alcohol, really, you know, a little bit of it in your life is rather good and too much is ruinous. Its interesting because this week, as you know, the leader of the opposition decided to talk about you at Prime Ministers questions and he said you agreed with the basic premise of Enoch Powells Rivers Of Blood speech. Now, those young people you talk to on tiktok wont know the speech and wont know enoch powell. I mean, frankly, you know, to drag up a figure from 50 years ago was a very odd thing to do. Well, hes a symbol, isnt he . Enoch powell is a symbol for many people of someone who exploited the issue of race and immigration. For many, i said, youll disagree, i know. Actually, i think he. Let me just remind listeners kind of who he was and the speech, the famous river of blood speech. Infamous speech. Infamous, yeah. It was a speech that used a classical quote to talk about rivers foaming with blood, a prediction of communal violence. But also another crucial phrase, the black man will have a whip hand over the white man. He was quoting someone, but thats what he said. Yeah. So lets just get the facts straight. Are you. Last time we talked, you said you had quite a lot of admiration for enoch powell. Do you agree with him and the river of blood speech . I think the speech was the biggest mistake of his career. This was a very distinguished man. You know, letsjust remember, hed been the youngest brigadier in world war ii, the youngest professor in the british empire. This was a very distinguished man who was in a hurry. You know, he made a speech to shock. He was in a hurry. And the speech itself was a mistake. But the basic premise that he was. And take out the flowery language and quotes from other people, the basic premise was that if you have immigration on a scale without integration and he said himself, people will not recognise areas to be their own. So he was warning about the pace and rate of immigration, integration and change. And when you think about today, when to millions of traditional labour voters, and starmer must know this, you know, actually they look at parts of their cities and say, what the hells happened here . This isnt england any more. So the basic premise, taking everything out, the basic premise that if you finish up with divided communities, different cultures, little in common historically or culturally, that its a recipe for problems, that basic premise is correct. Well, id argue there were two premises. Lets come back to unrecognisable. The other was a prediction of communal violence. Thats why the Rivers Of Blood, the foaming of much blood was used. Was that right . I mean, weve seen up in birmingham, you know, mobs in the streets, fighting hindu against muslim. Ive seen Manchester United fans fighting with liverpool fans. Oh, no, no, no, no. Fair point. That doesnt tell me anything about anything. Perfectly reasonable point. But when you see the mob, you know, outside the Palace Of Westminster last week, mps so scared that harriet harman, a very senior labour figure, has even suggested maybe we stay at home and vote on our computers. Whats that got to do with Mass Migration . Those are people who are angry about gaza. No, no, no. And some of them, you would argue, go madly over. The leaders of these demonstrations are people who have a different sense of priorities and come from very different culture to what would traditionally be seen to be british. Because they� re immigrants . There are plenty of people who of whom that might be true, who are supporters ofjeremy corbyn. Because in many cases. I mean, your classic idea. I mean, take america, a country built on immigration. Forgive me. Lets just finish off on the thought you had, because you said that those people have different and im challenging that and saying, well, really . Because of immigration . Of course because of immigration, no question. If you come to this country and you say, right, you know what, we are going to absolutely integrate. Our kids are going to play football in the local Recreation Ground with everybody else. Were going to become part of this community. And arguably, that had worked incredibly well, probably better than any other european country in terms of levels of integration. What were seeing with these particular Protest Movements are leaders of these movements, they want to change british society. Theres been a great debate this week about the word islamophobic. When i spoke to peter tatchell, veteran campaigner, pro palestinian marcher, he somewhat to my surprise on the today podcast said, i dont like that word because actually there are reasons to be fearful of islam, he said. If youre a gay man or woman, or if youre any sort of woman. Youre nodding. I mean, would it be rational in your mind to be islamophobic . I have a huge regard for tatchell. I think hes one of the great campaigners over decades. I may not agree with all of his campaigns, but peter always is sensible, grown up, and peters campaigns have always operated within the framework of a democratic country. What about the question . On the question, well, look, i mean, i think this is really difficult. You know, the equality act of 2010, the putting in place of Hate Speech Laws just leave you in a perpetual muddle because theyre all subjective judgements. And the way the law was written was, well, its hate speech if the person or group you Say Something about believes they have been harmed by it. But in a sense, im talking about. So were in a mess. I want to get to deep down. Does nigel farris think its rational . Because youve said immigrants are coming, theyre changing the nature of britain. Is it rational to have a phobia about islam . I tell you what is irrational. That is the way. Youre changing the subject. Im going to come back. Im asking, are you islamophobic and proud of it . No, im going to come back to this. Yeah, ok. What is irrational is that the National Debate this week has been about a comment lee anderson made, whether its islamophobic or not, not about the threat to our democratic institutions, not to the way certain by election candidates have been treated and the fear theyve been put through in a very significant by election, not about the increasing sectarian nature of policies. Whats the answer to the question . Im very, very fearful of extreme islam, very, very fearful. And i know there are also a huge number of Muslims Living and working in britain. Im going to suggest youre islamophobic and proud. No, thats not fair to say. No . No, thats not fair to say. Your words, not mine. I would argue that the people who are most fearful of Radical Islam are peace loving, hardworking Muslims Living in this country who are very worried about their futures. Lets talk quickly about the issue of the week, these protests. Youd ban them . Its a devilish problem, i think. I tell you whats rational as an answer to that you allow demonstrations, of course you do. Weve always allowed demonstrations. You dont allow them every saturday. 0k. Would you arrest anybody who says from the river to the sea, palestine will be free . Plenty of people think its a perfectly peaceful statement. Some people think its anti israel and anti semitic. Well, its notjust anti israel. Its about the eradication of israel and the People Living in it. Not in the minds of plenty of people who say it. In the minds of many, it is. I tell you who i would arrest the people that put it on the Elizabeth Tower that houses big ben. Id arrest them. You mentioned lee anderson. I put to you, if you changed the name of the mayor of london, you called him mr goldstein, he wasjewish, and you suggested he was controlled, Lee Andersons word by zionists. Yeah. You would say, or wouldnt you, that was racism . Clear and simple. Yes. No, i think you were sort of. Why are you excusing lee anderson . Youd be injeremy corbyn land. Why are you excusing mr anderson . Im not excusing him. I say what is also interesting. Well, honestly, why dont you just say . Ill tell you. I said completely. Ill explain it to you. There is Something Else london gets wrong. Not only do the commentariat and the politicians in london misunderstand the genuine concerns out of the country, theyre also incredibly middle class and very, very snobby. And when you have genuinely Working Class people coming into public life, they sometimes say things, express emotions, perhaps dont use quite the queens english in the way that presenters on the today programme or elsewhere would do. Look, i accept all that. Then when its pointed out to you, youve basically said a muslim is controlled by islamists. You say, look, really sorry, thats not what i meant. I meant something. It was an opinion that lee gave. He has admitted he was clumsy. Back to your old friend. Its back to donald trump. People say, how can you stand alongside a man who describes immigrants as poisoning the blood of our country . He says, we need to root out the communist Marxist Fascists and the radical left thugs that, quote, live like vermin within the confines of our country. Never take Everything Trump says literally, and if you do, youre going to finish up in the wrong place. Words matter, actions matter. And for years as a president , you know, you name me an american president with a better Foreign Policy than trump in the last 50 years. Im glad you said actions because the challenge always to nigel farage, well, what would he do if he actually had power . Right. Quite right. Im making you Prime Minister now. Immigration . Yeah. Very high figures. Your Prime Minister today, what do you do . Well, theyre not high figures. Theyre completely out of control. Weve never seen anything like this in our lives. Just to give people a context of this. You know, when mr blair came to power, there were 58 million People Living in the country. And that number had been pretty stable for a long, long time. There are now officially 68 million People Living in the country, although we know its higher and its going to be 75 million by the mid 20305. And there is no bigger issue thats affected the lives of ordinary folk, whether its getting a doctors appointment or a house for their kids than this. Sure. But what do you do . We have to get down to, you know, i mean, net zero would be an ideal for a few years. What do you do, youre Prime Minister . You come in. Tell you what happens. You come in. Your Prime Minister and i am the cabinet secretary. Briefly, ill tell you why i say to you. Isaid, well, mr farage, i know that you want to get immigration now, but we have got this huge shortage of nurses. Would you like me to stop nurses coming here . Not in a year, two years, five years, ten. Today youre Prime Minister. You just cant. And thats the other interesting thing. Whats the answer . Do you know the answer . The answer is what is work and what is migration . But the two have been put together. So you come on a work visa, you can stay. That should never, ever happen. We should be training our own nurses. But that doesnt happen overnight. So do you stop it . You try as much as you can to let Market Forces work. I tell you why i say this. Well, Market Forces. The nurses, the brilliant carers. No, no, no, no, no. Low skilled workers. No, no, no. I predicted in 2004 that there would be a vast number of people come from the former communist countries in europe. Expanded to involve poland, bulgaria, romania. And i rememberyou, nick robinson, saying to me, oh, well, no ones coming from romania. Nigel was completely wrong. There were now over 1. 1 Million People from romania here. All right. I was right about all these things. What thats effectively done and one of the reasons the Working Classes are as upset as they are is weve now been through a quite prolonged period where the minimum wage has become the maximum wage. Im still wondering what you would do . I think youre giving me a running commentary. Youre not listening. Market forces, oversupply of labour drives down wages. A shortage of labour drives up wages. We currently have 5. 4 Million People of working age who are not working, and in many cases they are disincentivised by the tax system from going back to work. You cant do one thing on its own without Something Else that compensates. If you lift the threshold at which tax starts to be paid and you do have shortages, whether its baristas or nurses, what you find are people in their 50s whove kind of packed up come back. Understood. So in other words, you dont Stop Immigration overnight. You might need some of it, but you can change the incentives. Absolutely. And so on. Well, youre not Prime Minister yet and you may not go back into politics. Youve been very clear about this. Now, when we talked last time we talked about the fact youve had your challenges. And you were kind enough to say you had. You dodged cancer, you survived a plane crash. Yeah. And you said that 30 years of campaigning youd always known might wreck your marriage, destroy your business, and make you poor. All of that was true. What on earth are you thinking of going back into that . Quite right i mean, no, you know, compared to four years ago when i made those comments, you know, life has been immeasurably better in lots and lots of ways. Well, i take the credit. You know, youve had your challenges and, you know, i mean, your cancer was far worse than mine. But no, this is for me a massive decision. You know, im going to be 60 in a couple of weeks time. And lets say i fight the general election. Lets say ill win a seat in westminster. Well, thats a minimum five year commitment. Its a minimum five year commitment. So its a decision for me that will take me beyond what would normally be retirement age. It is back into a life of increased scrutiny. I mean, not that i havent got it already, but of massively increased scrutiny, the additional pressures that adds on family, close connections. Its a massive decision. You know, going into Public Service is a massive, massive decision. And, you know, that will be part of my calculation. The biggest part, though. The biggest part will be is the timing right . Can i do something . Im not interested in just winning a seat. I did 20 years in the european parliament, just serving five years in westminster or ten years, thats of no interest to me. I will come back into this and do this if i think i can really help orchestrate historic change. Nigel farage, Thanks Forjoining me again on political thinking. Thank you. Hello, Thanks Forjoining me. Lets see what the weather is up to for the rest of today and, indeed, the next few days. Heres the summary for this evening. For most of us, dry and chilly, and with clearer skies this evening and overnight, another frost on the way. Now, in the next few days, its actually going to turn a little less chilly. Well see these milder southwesterlies developing. Thats from around about mid week onwards. Ok, the forecast, then starting with the satellite picture, and you can see how big the gaps in the clouds have been, all of that bright, if not sunny weather today. The Evening Temperatures will already be pretty low. In fact, by the time we get to about 6pm, only four degrees for birmingham, five degrees for glasgow. Generally dry, just a few showers scattered here and there. So the forecast, then, for tonight a lot of clear, dry weather, just a few showers again in the western isles, maybe one or two out towards the west. There is a Weather Front approaching. That does spell rain for tomorrow, but ahead of it, before it arrives, its a frosty morning and, in fact, temperatures around freezing, whether youre in aberdeen or on the south coast of england. Plymouth there at around three celsius above freezing. The weather map for monday shows that Weather Front approaching south Western Parts of the uk. So that introduces thicker cloud and outbreaks of rain i think later on in the morning. So ahead of it, a lot of bright if not sunny weather, and then that Weather Front sweeps into the south west, into wales, eventually through ireland, into northern ireland. But notice many eastern and northern areas, especially here in scotland, should have a sunny day, and the temperatures about the same eight in aberdeen, ten in hull, 12 in london, and with that strengthening wind there, about nine degrees with that rain in cornwall and devon. Tuesday, that Weather Front eventually moves across the uk. Its going to fizzle out and i think there will be some light rain around in the morning in scotland, some of these eastern counties closer to the north sea coast. But out towards the west, its generally dry and bright on tuesday. And again, not a huge amount of change in the temperature between around nine and 12 degrees celsius. But well start to see that slightly less cold air sweeping in so i think across the bulk of the uk, temperatures should be just around double figures, but its not going to be a huge change. And the weather i think a little drier as we go through the course of the week. Live from london. This is bbc news. A hold up in the gaza peace talks, israel is reported not to be sending a delegation to cairo. Uk chancellorjeremy hunt has said he wants to find a way to bring down the tax burden, ahead of the Spring Budget this week. A seven Year Old Girl has drowned after a small boat, carrying migrants heading to the, capsized in northern france. Parliament in pakistan has elected Shehbaz Sharif as Prime Minister for a second term. And its a record breaking night at the brit awards, as raye picks up six prizes. Hello. You are watching bbc news. Our Breaking News this hour, there are reports of a hold up in negotiations for a temporary ceasefire in gaza. Israel is reported not to be sending a delegation to talks taking place in cairo. Thats despite us officials saying a Ceasefire Deal was already on the table and israel had approved it. The Sticking Point appears to be hamas not supplying a list of the hostages who would be released. Washington had been hoping for a deal by monday, taking effect before ramadan in a weeks time. I asked our correspondent wyre davies, who is now injerusalem, about the doubts regarding whether the israeli