Well, i mean, rwanda is a different country of congo, isnt it . Its a different country. Yes. It is. Yes. Definitely. Laughter. Hes saying, if they come from a war zone in congo, would they then be sent to rwanda . What was going on there . Did you really not know, or was it one of those moments of Live Television . I was struggling to hear the question and i was asking as a Rhetorical Question rather than a substantive question rather than a substantive question is i think any fair minded listener would conclude. Mes listener would conclude. Wes streeting. Listener would conclude. Wes streeting, do listener would conclude. Wes streeting, do you listener would conclude. Wes streeting, do you practice that i roll or side eye in the mirror, it was impressive . I roll or side eye in the mirror, it was impressive . Roll or side eye in the mirror, it was impressive . Roll or side eye in the mirror, it was imressive . ,, was impressive . I was dumbstruck by the whole moment. Was impressive . I was dumbstruck by the whole moment. Chris was impressive . I was dumbstruck by the whole moment. Chris says was impressive . I was dumbstruck by the whole moment. Chris says it was impressive . I was dumbstruck by the whole moment. Chris says it wasl the whole moment. Chris says it was a rhetorical the whole moment. Chris says it was a Rhetorical Question, ill believe chris a Rhetorical Question, ill believe chris. ~ chris. Well. Laughter i laughter well talk to you both later in the programme about some of the serious points about that moment on Question Time earlier in the week. The lib dem leader ed davey� s here. And with us throughout robertjenrick, former immigration minister, labours baroness shami chakrabarti, and former snp leader In WestminsterIan Blackford. Busy, busy time in scotland too. Lets start as we do with the news. The observer splashes with that defection of dan poulter. Youll hear our interview in a few minutes time. That makes the front page of the Sunday Telegraph can be in. The mirror says Smuggling Gangs are Holding Migrants in world war ii bunkers before they cross the channel and the express has keir starmer saying labour would keep the pension is triple lock if it wins the election. They also have an interview with rishi sunak, who has today refused to deny an election could be in the summer although his expectation, he said, that it will be later in the year. You three, good morning, welcome. Its very rare this happens. How damaging is it to your boss, rishi sunak . I damaging is it to your boss, rishi sunak . ,. ,. , sunak . I thought it was a confused resignation sunak . I thought it was a confused resignation. Annie sunak . I thought it was a confused resignation. Annie is sunak . I thought it was a confused resignation. Annie is wrong sunak . I thought it was a confused resignation. Annie is wrong on sunak . I thought it was a confused resignation. Annie is wrong on the | resignation. Annie is wrong on the facts. When he came to parliament in 2010 the government was spending about £130 billion a year on the nhs. Since then, Undera Conservative government, theres been a 40 real terms increase in spending, so is the suggestion that conservatives dont care about Public Services, the disadvantaged or the nhs, is Public Services, the disadvantaged orthe nhs, isjust Public Services, the disadvantaged or the nhs, isjust plain wrong. Politically, its damaging, isnt it . A defection as a symbol of something going badly wrong. Its something going badly wrong. Its alwa s something going badly wrong. It� s always a shame to lose colleagues, people do that for a range of reasons, personal ones, sometimes its opportunism but the argument is clearly incorrect. The issue for the nhs today is not about spending more money, its about reform, its about increasing productivity, delivering better quality of service to the general public. His better quality of service to the general public. Better quality of service to the general public. His point is clear, he doesnt general public. His point is clear, he doesnt think general public. His point is clear, he doesnt think that general public. His point is clear, he doesnt think that is general public. His point is clear, l he doesnt think that is happening which is a gift to labour, isnt it . Dan has been on my Radarfor A Dan has been on my radar for a little dan has been on my radar for a little while dan has been on my radar for a little while because i remember being little while because i remember being in little while because i remember being in common cause with him during being in common cause with him during the being in common cause with him during the pandemic when he was a co signatory to a campaign for the socalled co signatory to a campaign for the so called trips waiver that would have so called trips waiver that would have allowed Vaccine Patterns to be temporarily lifted so that the global temporarily lifted so that the global south could vaccinate more quickly, global south could vaccinate more quickly, so global south could vaccinate more quickly, so i think he is an internationalist. I think in his piece internationalist. I think in his piece today as well as speaking up for the piece today as well as speaking up for the beloved nhs, piece today as well as speaking up forthe beloved nhs, he piece today as well as speaking up for the beloved nhs, he speaks up against for the beloved nhs, he speaks up against what he sees as nationalism in the against what he sees as nationalism in the British Conservative Party. He is in the British Conservative Party. He is obviously a more internationalist person and i think i internationalist person and i think i share internationalist person and i think i share values with him. It� s i share values with him. Its interesting i share values with him. Its interesting you i share values with him. It� s interesting you say that because he clearly think the conservative party has changed, but do you believe that labour will be able to get more conservatives before the General Election, coming across to you . I election, coming across to you . I think its perfectly possible, certainly from the common cause ive been making with senior conservatives in the House Of Lords over for conservatives in the House Of Lords over for example rwanda. I have to believe over for example rwanda. I have to believe that there are others in the british believe that there are others in the British Conservative Party who feel that their British Conservative Party who feel that their tradition is being ignored that their tradition is being lunored. � that their tradition is being innored. �. , that their tradition is being innored. � ,. , that their tradition is being innored. �. ,. ,. , ignored. 0k, well come to rwanda later in the ignored. 0k, well come to rwanda later in the show. Ignored. 0k, well come to rwanda later in the show. Ian, ignored. 0k, well come to rwanda later in the show. Ian, a ignored. 0k, well come to rwanda later in the show. Ian, a huge ignored. 0k, well come to rwandai later in the show. Ian, a huge week in scotland, real turmoil, later in the show. Ian, a huge week in scotland, realturmoil, humza yousaf in case youve been living under a rock, yousaf in case youve been living undera rock, hisjob as yousaf in case youve been living under a rock, hisjob as First Minister is on the line. Who is in more trouble of the tories or the snp . I more trouble of the tories or the snp . 4 , snp . I think the snp will get throu~h snp . I think the snp will get through this snp . I think the snp will get through this week, snp . I think the snp will get through this week, the snp . I think the snp will get through this week, the snp l snp . | think the snp will get through this week, the snp leader has made through this week, the snp leader has made the through this week, the snp leader has made the offer through this week, the snp leader has made the offer to through this week, the snp leader has made the offer to talk through this week, the snp leader has made the offer to talk to through this week, the snp leaderi has made the offer to talk to other parties has made the offer to talk to other parties we has made the offer to talk to other parties. We have has made the offer to talk to other parties. We have a has made the offer to talk to other parties. We have a peer has made the offer to talk to other parties. We have a peer system i has made the offer to talk to other parties. We have a peer system in| parties. We have a peer system in our parliament, parties. We have a peer system in our parliament, its parties. We have a peer system in our parliament, its difficult parties. We have a peer system in our parliament, its difficult to our parliament, its difficult to achieve our parliament, its difficult to achieve a our parliament, its difficult to achieve a majority, our parliament, its difficult to achieve a majority, its our parliament, its difficult to achieve a majority, its a achieve a majority, its a parliament achieve a majority, its a parliament of achieve a majority, its a| parliament of minorities. Achieve a majority, its a parliament of minorities. What we need parliament of minorities. What we need to parliament of minorities. What we need to do parliament of minorities. What we need to do is parliament of minorities. What we need to do is recognise parliament of minorities. What we need to do is recognise the need to do is recognise the challenges need to do is recognise the challenges we need to do is recognise the challenges we face, need to do is recognise the challenges we face, on need to do is recognise the challenges we face, on Climate Change challenges we face, on Climate Change get challenges we face, on Climate Change get the challenges we face, on Climate Change get the economy challenges we face, on Climate Change get the economy going | challenges we face, on Climate Change get the economy going and we have a change get the economy going and we have a first change get the economy going and we have a First Minister change get the economy going and we have a First Minister who change get the economy going and we have a First Minister who will change get the economy going and we have a First Minister who will set have a First Minister who will set out his have a First Minister who will set out his agenda, have a First Minister who will set out his agenda, win have a First Minister who will set out his agenda, Win Common Have a First Minister who will set. Out his agenda, win common cause have a First Minister who will set out his agenda, win common cause and win the out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this week. Out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this week. Istatewi out his agenda, win common cause and win the vote this week. Win the vote this week. Well see what happens. Win the vote this week. Well see what happens, we win the vote this week. Well see what happens, we talk win the vote this week. Well see what happens, we talk about win the vote this week. Well see | what happens, we talk about that more in the programme. Lets hear, then, in his own words, why dr dan poulter has done that rare thing defect quitting the tories to join labour. Well, id been thinking about it for a little while and it was alongside my work as an mp. I work still work as an nhs doctor and always have done. The Health Service that i saw under huge strain is very different to the Health Service of maybe a decade ago, and the struggles and the challenges that patients have been experiencing in accessing timely good care was something that really resonated with me and stayed with me, and ifound it increasingly difficult to look my nhs colleagues in the eye, my patients in the eye, and my constituents in the eye with good conscience. And i feel that the nhs deserves better than it has at the moment in terms of how its run and governed. But you pin that on, then, the governments handling of the Health Service. Because of course the nhs has had lots of problems for a long time, its run by managers in all sorts of places, but you pin that on the conservatives handling of it . I think it comes from that. I think it comes from values, as well. Very clearly, its been the case in the last. Eight, ten years or so, the nhs is not a priority to the conservative party and to the government, and if we want to do better for patients, we want to restore that service to where it was before, then i believe that we need to look to a party that has a track record when it was in government before under tony blair and gordon brown, that has a track record of delivering for patients, transforming services, getting on top of Waiting Lists, investing in Community Health care. And thats what keir starmer and the labour party i know will do, and they will be trusted, im sure, to do it by nhs staff, as well. But when you have as a conservative, youve previously said that labour had been profligate and inefficient at how it ran the nhs. Youve attacked labours record of running the nhs in wales. I mean, i think. Certainly the nhs in all parts of the country be it in scotland or wales or england is under. Is under pressure. But the service that i saw during those night shifts was unrecognisable from the service that i worked in routinely before i became an mp. Frankly, patients deserve better. It shouldnt be the case that people a third of patients are waiting more than 60 days for urgent cancer care. That shouldnt be the case in a civilised health system. How would you describe the broader change in the conservative party . We now have a tory party that resembles sometimes a little bit more a nationalist, National Party rather than a party of the centre right. And i feel that, actually, the changes that the labour party has made since 2019 under Keir Starmer Notjust on the Health Service but particularly on that offer on health, about tackling the determinants of poor health, housing, poverty and all those issues are the sort of things that are really going to make a big difference. And i think thats why i believe that. Why ive made the change i have and why i believe it will make a difference to the patients i look after. Since 2010, though, constituents in your suffolk home have chosen you, sent you to westminster as a conservative. Some of them might be angry that you have left the party that they chose. What do you say to them . Well, i had two things i could have done. I could have carried on to the election and then stood down. Or i could. I could have decided to potentially have there could be a by election and call a by election. But were at the point where there might be a General Election called at any moment. And i think rishi sunak should call a General Election tomorrow, or as soon as possible and let the public choose, you know, and make a choice about who should be in government. And i thought about it and i thought, well, whats the best thing or the right thing to do . On balance, i thought because there will be an election very, very soon it didnt make sense to have a by election. I thought, on balance, it was better to continue to work diligently for my constituents through until the end of this parliament, be that in a few weeks or potentially a few months. 0k. Dan, thank you so much indeed for speaking to us today. Thank you. Lets talk to Home Office Minister chris philp, then. Great to have you with us, thank you for coming in. Dan poulter� s assessment of the conservative party is a damning one. He says you become a nationalist party, youve lost your compassion, its a sign of real rot, isnt it, he has done this . I rot, isnt it, he has done this . I dont accept what dan has done at all. The nhs was one of two departments that was protected during the years of Spending Restraint after the Labour Government bankrupted the country. We are spending £165 billion on the nhs, a 13 increase above inflation just over the last four or five years alone. In the last year the nhs has hired an extra 68,000 people of whom 7000 are doctors, a net increase, and there are 21,000 more nurses today than there were a year ago. That isnt a fine of a Party Deprioritising the nhs, its the sign of a political party, the conservatives, investing heavily in the nhs because it is a priority. This the nhs because it is a priority. As conservatives would say its not just about the money, what dan poulter is saying is its also about values and he is saying the conservative party now is not the conservative party now is not the conservative party now is not the conservative party he j