Paddy oconnell and henry zeffman. Newscast. Newscast from the bbc. Hello, its laura in the studio. Its paddy in the studio. And its henry in the studio. Hooray its so nice to have you here with us. Now, you tantalised us on the saturday episode that there was a scoop in the making. The scoop in the making ended up being a defection. Yes, defection, and defections are important because they are rare and defections are important because they really spook political parties. And in this case, a Conservative Mp until yesterday was dan poulter, a part time nhs doctor, who has decided that it is time for him to go from the Conservative Party. And he didntjust sort of say, because i think ive had enough and theyve gone in the wrong direction. He accused them of not caring about public services, about not caring about the nhs and of losing their compassion. So, defections are big news stories, even if, newscasters, i will say, the person in question is not someone who necessarily is a massive politicalfigure. But a bolt out of nowhere. I mean, defections from the government to the Principal Opposition Party are extremely rare. We had one a couple of years ago. Christian wakeford left the conservatives for labour when borisjohnson was in great difficulty, the start of 2022. Before that, the last time it had happened was 1995. So labour will be indeed are ecstatic that theyve managed to get two in two years. But when the Christian Wakeford defection happened, there were a lot of rumours in westminster. I remember, yeah . That labour were talking to potentially several conservative defectors, people from the awful phrase red wall, people who had come into parliament in 2019, as Christian Wakeford had. I dont think anyone at that point or subsequently would have ever had dan poulter suffolk, true blue territory, tory mp since 2010, David Cameron era minister i dont think anyone would have ever had them on a long list, let alone on a shortlist, of potential defectors to labour. I think thats right, and as a sort of political manoeuvre and a political stunt i mean, stunt is a bit of a silly word. Timing. Its the timing of it. Its the timing, a few days out from the local elections, very much already into the General ElectionLong Campaign or Short Campaign or whatever kind of campaign its going to be. But the other thing about it, and i know newscasters sometimes like to know these things, labour, i think, will also be absolutely cock a hoop that they managed to keep it so tight. They genuinely managed to keep it under wraps, and in westminster, where gossip comes out of every crack in the wall, that is something of an achievement in itself. And the way its been written in the papers is, its a sort of labour trampoline moment, because he did do an op ed in the observer in which he said. He said that the labour party of 2019 is dead and buried. So in the moment of maximum publicity, he is praising Keir Starmers revolution in the labour party in the papers, and the guests who came up on the Radio Todayjust admitted this looks really good for keir starmer. Yeah, of course it does, and theres two things. One is that they are able to say, look, its notjust us, the labour party, saying that the labour party has changed. Look, the conservative guy coming over here because he believes the labour party has changed. But also, especially given dan poulter isnt a Household Name at least until this morning for the labour party, one of the great boosts here is basically rubbing the Conservative Partys faces in the mud. And what is the choreography of it . Cos you said stunt but then not stunt, but i said timing, but it is sort of. Its a look, ooh yes, its a big reveal. If we talk about it in the context of politics being some kind of reality show, it is a big reveal, it is a big ta da moment, and it will have been worked out under great, great secrecy. Downing street was only told a few minutes before it happened, before it was made public by us here at the bbc and the observer newspaper. So Downing Street didnt know anything about it at all. Only, i think, less than six people in the labour party knew anything about it at all. Wes streeting, the Shadow Health secretary, whos obviously interested in this because of his links to the nhs, said this morning to us hed met him in the last couple of days. Dan poulter told me that hed been thinking about it for the last couple of months. So the circle has been tiny because gossip isntjust the way of the world in westminster, it also has power and currency, right . Whos talking to who and about what . So this is something that has been executed by the labour party, i think, really quite. Been executed by them very, very well, but defections are so rare, partly because, i think it is worth saying, politics is a very emotional thing. Its very tribal, its very emotional. To say to your colleagues, ive had enough of you, when youve walked through. Think about what has happened in politics in the last ten years. It has been intense and crazy. Theyve walked through the fire together, and actually to say, no, ive had enough of you, its a really big deal. I mean, these things can be more chaotic than they appear at the time. I mean, it looked incredibly smooth from the labour party yesterday. I remember when sort of subsequently, digging into the last defection, the Christian Wakeford one, which, again, looked pretty smooth on the day, they got him to cross the floor, physically cross the floor, in the House Of Commons just before Prime Ministers questions, sort of rattling borisjohnson. But actually, it transpired in the subsequent days that because a fewjournalists appeared to have got wind of it, they said to Christian Wakeford, 0k, youve got to do it tomorrow if you want to do it, and they got him in then to meet keir starmer for the first time. So, a lot of these things, im sure its been happening in dan poulter� s head and dan poulter� s heart, i guess, for a long time. And there may be lots of things that were going on behind the scenes where it was a near miss or whatever that we dont know about yet. But certainly in terms of their public achievement, it is a political and public coup for labour at the moment. But, you know, sometimes these things, sometimes what seems initially great successes in politics, before too long, actually turn into looking like something else. Shall we listen to the man himself . Well, ive been thinking about it for a little while. And it was. Alongside my work as an mp, i still work as an nhs doctor and always have done. The Health Service that i saw under huge strain is very different to the Health Service of maybe a decade ago, and the struggles and the challenges that patients have been experiencing in accessing timely good care was something that really resonated with me and stayed with me. And i found it increasingly difficult to look my nhs colleagues in the eye, my patients in the eye and my constituents in the eye with good conscience. And i feel that the nhs deserves better than it has at the moment. I feel that, actually, the changes that the labour party has made since 2019 under keir starmer, notjust on the Health Service but particularly on that offer on health, about tackling the determinants of poor health housing, poverty and all those issues are the sort of things that are really going to make a big difference. And i think thats why. |ve made the change i have and why i believe it will make a difference to the patients i look after. Can i pick up on what you said . Youre both the specialists. This is not a Household Name. Hes not really speaking. Hes not Martin Luther king, is he, when he speaks . So i wonder, does the public hear, if it hears anything, it hears health . Labour for health is that the kind of what the voters are going to hear . Yeah, i mean, thats the clear message of his interview. I mean, interestingly, he combined it, though, with this other claim about the Conservative Party becoming increasingly nationalist, to use his word. And that was something that Shami Chakrabarti picked up on, on lauras panel, on her programme. I mean, actually, ithink thats a very unique criticism among Conservative Mps, although hes not a Conservative Mp any more. You heard a lot more about that, a lot more concerns like that, from a plank of the conservative Parliamentary Party when borisjohnson was Prime Minister. And actually, in the run up to the 2019 General Election, im sure thats a critique that people like amber rudd and david gauke and Dominic Grieve would share. They all left the Conservative Party five years ago more than five years ago, in some cases now. So actually, its a bit surprising to me to hear a Conservative Mp who was re elected in 2019, stayed in the party although he doesnt actually frankly seem to have done an awful lot in Parliament Since then harboring that criticism. And ijust thought that was noteworthy. But, yeah, the sort of the top message of his defection is that he doesnt believe the conservatives are running the Health Service well. And he did say, which was interesting, too, that he felt there were plenty of colleagues who shared his view and maybe who didnt share his view on that nationalist, because i think also theres something about that word that is very striking and its a very negative word to a lot of peoples ears but i think what more conservatives might find sympathy with is the way that he talked about the party moving away from where it had been in 2010. So, away from some of those sort of cameron. N h yes, remember that particular slogan . Remember, oh, yes, we will put compassion and hug a hoodie, which he never actually said, but, you know, we will put those kinds of things front and centre, whereas, now, you look at how the conservatives have been flirting with the idea of campaigning on cultural war issues, and theres a big debate about whether thats the right thing. But look at where theyve moved to on migration, making it illegal for people to try to come to this country. They have moved to the right, i think, by any analysis. And there are conservatives who are not happy about that, even though, as you say, its nothing like the level of concern of when borisjohnson and his team were deliberately crashing around Downing Street, trying to wind up the other side. But its also always worth remembering, so much of this shows that politics is about presentation. Because, yes, i think everybody, most Conservative Mps would say their party has moved to the right since David Cameron was Prime Minister. But if you wanted to make a counterargument, David Cameron pledged though never quite delivered that legal migration would come down to the tens of thousands. Rishi sunak does not have that commitment. Taxes are record high. Taxes are at a record high. States bigger than ever. The state is bigger than ever. Public spending was restrained, to say the least, under David Cameron. And when chris philp was on your programme responding to dan poulter, he was talking about how much spending on the Health Service had swelled, particularly in recent years. So there is an interesting sort of counterargument, but obviously David Cameron portrayed himself as much more comfortable. Yeah, but there is another name were not mentioning at the moment, which is rishi sunak. And just for the newscaster who wonders what the Sunday Chournalism journalism situation. Chournalism . I will not have that said no, im talking about myself. We gather, we watch everything and we Read Everything on a Sunday Morning and we churn it all together into a digest, is what i mean by that. Its a beautiful pat of butter. So rishi sunaks been out today on sky, he spoke to the fabulous Trevor Phillips and what i spotted listening to it, apart from the fact that it sounds to have been recorded in an echo chamber, was that. What, a real echo chamber or a metaphorical echo chamber . Was that it was tetchy rishi again. He was pushed by trevor, and instead of owning it. And i remember David Cameron saying Tojohn Humphrys once on the radio, john, youll interrupt yourself if youre not careful, and sort of laughing it off. Rishi was tetchy on the tv today. Yeah. And he complained at one point, which was quite amusing, i have to say. He said something like, this is the fourth question in a row youve asked me about politics, and, well, you know. Welcome to politics, Prime Minister. And, you know, you have to say, in an election campaign, whenever that begins be it weeks, months or whatever theres going be quite a lot of questions that are difficult for the Prime Minister. And i think. I do actually think some members of the public like a politician to show a flash of impatience, if its on their behalf, if they say, you know, come on, i want to talk about the Health Service. I want to talk about the real issues. But its a very fine line. And certainly there are lots of conservatives who fear that rishi sunak too often strays onto the tetchy side of that line. Shall we have a listen to how labour was crowing about it with Wes Streeting and how the conservative minister chris philp, who was doing the morning round this morning, responded to dan poulter . Well, i think as we get closer to an election, i most likely in the autumn, i it becomes more of a choice rather than a sort of referendum on, do you feel grumpy with the government . And clearly at the moment, people do feel grumpy with the government. But as we get closer to an election, its not so much a referendum on grumpiness. It becomes actually a choice. Who do you want to run the country rishi sunak, whos got a plan thats working, or keir starmer, who has no plan whatsoever and wanted to make Jeremy CorbynPrime Minister. Just a few years ago . And i think confronted with that. Choice, we will see our poll ratings significantly improve. Significantly improve there that is on the record from a minister. And here was Wes Streeting, i think technically we can use the word cock a hoop, about the new member of his party. Hes abandoned the Conservative Party to save the nhs, and i think there are millions of conservative voters across the country who are feeling politically homeless, who can see the chaos and the failure to deliver of now five conservative Prime Ministers, who are now looking for an alternative. And i hope they will trust the doctor. So how will labour use this moment . In the sky interview, the Prime Minister was asked four or five times about the july election. So has that gone away . Is that speculation . Or is this new season, and were going to have this type of talk now for weeks . Oh, the Election Speculation this week went crazy. And i was speaking to people at the start of the week, obviously laura talked last week on this podcast about whispers shed been hearing. At the start of the week, a few people proactively got in touch to say things like, have you heard about these rumours that an election might be called next week . You know, when i bounce that off people, its certainly the case that there are some people at the top of the Conservative Party who believe that rishi sunak should call an election sooner rather than later. They believe that that is to his advantage. Will help him get the election to rein onto things that he wants to talk about, things like rwanda as well as the economy, rather than put them at the mercy of whatever events happen to be when time runs out. And its important to understand that the economic picture, while still improving, is different to what Downing Street was anticipating because of whats happening in america probably not going to get anywhere near the number of rate cuts that they were hoping for. So there are some powerful, influential people at the top of the Conservative Party who are saying to rishi sunak, as a result of all that, you should have the election. But there are no signs yet that rishi sunak agrees with them, and he is the person who will decide how long he wants to remain Prime Minister before he rolls the dice that he can turn it around. Sorry, paddy were going to be talking about this all the time i know, but no wonder hes tetchy. Well, quite. Yeah, but the thing is, i think you could s