Mihai popsoi, welcome to hardtalk. My pleasure. Would it be fair to say that there are increasing signs of deep political instability inside moldova . Unfortunately, that is the case, and a certain number of russian proxies are trying to destabilise the republic of moldova. And even though theyre trying hard, Moldovan Society is resilient. We, as the government, are doing our utmost to make sure that moldova remains stable and firmly anchored into the free world. And were carrying on with reforms, notjust muddling through, but actually achieving meaningful progress, despite the efforts on the russian side to implement all sorts of hybrid war tactics. But we remain determined to continue to stand by ukraine, to provide all the support that we can possibly provide, despite our modest means, and the russians will not succeed as long as the moldovan people will remain determined to see theirfuture in the European Union. Well, well explore those accusations youve just made against russia in some detail in a minute. Butjust sticking with this idea of the resilience of the moldovan government, it doesnt. It doesnt really look so resilient. When the Prime Minister, natalia gavrilita, she resigned, saying that she couldnt really handle, quote, so many crises caused by russian aggression in ukraine. Just seems like she was worn down by this sense of crisis. Well, its only human. It takes a toll on you when youre juggling a refugee crisis, Energy Crisis, highest inflation in europe, and she did a very good job with all that. But Prime Ministers change. Its only normal in a democratic country. Its only in russia where the leadership doesnt change. In the republic of moldova, it does. Yeah but in terms of this sense of threat and tension, how closely do you and your government colleagues watch what is happening in the course of the war in ukraine . Because, of course, right now, on the various front lines, the situation doesnt look so good for ukraine. And what we also see is that the russians have resumed their long range attacks on odesa, on the black sea, which is, of course, part of that corridor, which, if it were ever to be taken by Russian Forces, would lead them directly toward mold ova. So, how closely are you watching it . We are watching it very closely, and needless to say, the level of anxiety in the country is directly proportional to the developments on the front line. And its not an issue where russia wants to invade moldova, its a question of whether they can. And thank god and thanks to the support. Sorry, you dont doubt that there is an intent or a desire in moscow, inside the kremlin, to get Russian Forces into your country . Well, sadly, they already have forces in the republic of moldova. They have violated our sovereignty and our territorial integrity. And this has been ongoing for the past 32 years, but. Youre, of course, referring to transnistria, and well get to that particular enclave which claims a separate status and which, of course, you refuse to recognise. And of course, there are 1,600 or so Russian Troops posted in transnistria. But i was referring more to the possibility of what we saw in february, 2022, happening to moldova. That is, a full frontal russian invasion. Is that seen as still a serious possibility in your country . It is a possibility, but its less likely than it was two years ago. The russians are not hiding it. At various level, they have bellicose language against us, but its not an issue whether they want, its an issue whether they can. And thanks to the sacrifice and the courage of the ukrainian people and the ukrainian army, the russians cannot advance to our borders. And we are hopeful that with this support that is being provided, with the Ukraine Supplemental voted recently by us congress and signed into law by president biden, and the support that is coming from the united kingdom, and the support that is coming from the European Union and the rest of the free world, ukraine will be able to reclaim the momentum, and this will also reduce the level of anxiety and the Economic Cost and the hardship that we feel in the republic of moldova. What youre saying is that continued Ukrainian Military defiance of moscow is, in a sense, your security guarantee, for the time being. Yes. But and youve referred to it already in this interview you are also making serious accusations about different types of Warfare Being waged by russia on your country. Now, in february, just a couple of months back, your president , maia sandu, directly Accused Moscow of plotting a coup against her and your government. What evidence do you have . Well, weve seen a number of attempts for certain sports like looking men trying to get into the republic of moldova. Weve blocked them at the border repeatedly. Weve also seen russian proxies, Fugitive Oligarchs who are abroad but are using their network in the republic of moldova to destabilise the situation, through paying protesters, through bribing individuals in elections, through creating all sorts of instability. Propaganda is a well known avenue of russian influence, even though weve undercut their momentum by doing away with the broadcasting of Russian Federal tv channels in moldova. It took us a while, but now we have securitised our informational space. We are building now a Strategic Communications centre, modelled after the experience of our baltic friends, to be able to better respond to these attempts. But also, theyre using all kinds of tactics to bring grey money into the country to fund these political proxies. Thats a whole host of different things. But i am rather intrigued by this notion of some bulky looking sportsmen caught, apprehended on your border. This is a new story to me. What exactly are you saying here, what happened . No, there have been numerous attempts throughout this past two years for these sort of guys to come into the country. We turn them back at the border. We dont allow them to enter. But who are they . Well, they can come from different countries, but the risk profile, if they fall under the risk profile, they are turned back at the border because we are in a position where we have to make sure that even the slightest risk could turn problematic. Ok, so theres the border, which you are clearly safeguarding. There are certain non sort of tangible, less physical attacks, which you also accuse moscow of. I noticed thatjust a few days ago, the public state Broadcasting CompanyAccused Moscow of launching a so called denial of Service Cyberattack on their output. So, are you capable of responding and defending yourselves from Cyber Warfare . 0ur capabilities are still modest, but we are building them together with our partners. But, yes, we are a constant target of russian attacks on our infrastructure, notjust the public broadcaster, but also the post office. Government institutions are regularly targeted by hackers, which experts attribute to russia. But we are building our resilience. We have strong partnerships, including with the united kingdom, the United States and other partners in europe to help build our defences, including in the Cyber Defence sector. Isnt the truth, though, that you are an extraordinarily vulnerable country . I mean, youre one of the poorest countries in europe, your Defence Budget is tiny, as a share of gdp. There is also a sense that youre not really that serious about defence. Youve yet to get your Defence Spending to i of gdp, and you well know that the nato threshold these days is at least 2 of gdp. Now, youre telling me that russia presents such a grave threat to you. How come youre not spending a bit more money and taking defence a bit more seriously . Well, we do. Lately, we have approved the new National Security strategy, where we identified russia as the main National Security threat, and we committed to i of gdp, which is a big jump to what historically was the investment in moldova, 0. 25 0. 3. Now we are at 0. 55, we already doubled our Defence Spending, and we are determined to reach 1 of gdp. 2 is still very ambitious for us. But to be fair, quite a number of nato members failed to meet the 2 . In moldova, we are serious in committing our modest resources to defence. If only our predecessors, many of whom who have been pro russian, had no incentive to invest in defence. They actually had all the incentive to maintain moldovas vulnerability. So now we have to catch up. If you and your people were really serious about defence, and withstanding what you perceive to be this grave threat from russia, wouldnt you be making a desperate attempt to join nato as soon as possible . Well, that is a very sensitive topic in moldova. Only about a quarter of the Population Supportjoining nato. Yeah, why is that . There are several explanations. One is moldova is a neutral state by constitution, and many find this idea soothing. Nobody attacks you since you are a neutral country, right . Many people have this false sense of security, and russia has been instrumental in inculcating this idea that neutrality is a guarantee of security, which, of course, we know from history is not the case, but russian propaganda has built a bogeyman image out of nato. You can blame russian propaganda, but you could flip it round and say the truth is that, as polls show, a clear majority of moldovans do not want to be members of nato, and that is because a very substantial chunk of your own population, and you pride yourselves on being a democracy, a very substantial chunk of moldovans actually have real sympathy with russia and do not share the complete commitment to a westward orientation that you and your government have. Well, the absolute majority share this commitment, because they voted for us and we have an absolute majority in parliament. And president sandu has had a Landslide Victory in the previous president ial election, and well be working hard to make sure that we retain that robust support for president sandu, for the party that i represent, and for the course, the Strategic Direction of european integration for our country. But its true that its not shared by everyone. Its only normal in a democratic country. Part of it is a genuine belief of our citizens, a small minority. Another part is a result of the toxic russian propaganda that our citizens have lived under for the past 30 years. But arent you, as foreign minister, engaged in something a little bit dangerous politically right now . Because, as youve just said, there is no public popular mandate Forjoining Nato and yet you seem to be intent, you and the defence minister, on doing deals, for example, with france, to get some important Military Hardware from the french government, which to many moldovans are going to look like, you know, joining the western Military Alliance by the back door, and you have no mandate for that. Well, this is bilateral engagements that we do. We also have a very fruitful cooperation under the nato umbrella. We just celebrated 30 years of the Partnership For Peace that we have with nato. That doesnt conflict in any way with our Neutrality Status. In fact, nato respects our Neutrality Status. The only country that violates this Neutrality Status is russia, that has consistently violated our neutrality for the past 32 years, maintaining troops and munitions in moldova, despite a commitment under the osce Istanbul Summit of 1999 to withdraw those troops and munitions from the republic of moldova. And our citizens support our actions in Building Resilience in our defence institutions, because every citizen realises, or almost everyone realises, that to have a stable country, to have an economically developed country, first, you need to guarantee security to your citizens. Isnt your greatest vulnerability of all that a significant chunk of your territory and we referred to it earlier transnistria, is currently run by a Separatist Group who look To Moscow For Support and who are increasingly making noises which are somewhat reminiscent of the noises being made by the separatists in Eastern Ukraine before the invasion of February 2022 . For example, the self styled president of transnistria, mr krasnoselsky, recently referred to a policy of genocide being applied to his territory by your government in chisinau. Well, there is more noise there than actual facts. The region of the republic of moldova, the left bank of the river nistru, exports more to the European Union than the rest of moldova. About 70 of everything that is produced in the Transnistrian Region of the republic of moldova goes to the european market. Theyre desperately unhappy at the moment, because they say that you are ruining their economy. Youve essentially raised tariffs for all goods going in and out of transnistria, and youve also changed your energy policy, so youre not buying cheap energy from them any more, and youre therefore not giving them the revenue. Their economy is in dire straits, and thats one reason why they say they need the support of Vladimir Putin and russia. Well, thats highly ironic, because the only person or the entity to blame for all the hardship that the entire republic of moldova is going through, including our citizens in the Transnistrian Region, and quite frankly, the entire region, is russia. The Energy Crisis that sent energy bills through the roof to everyone in the region, including in the republic of moldova, is the sole responsibility of the kremlin and the barbaric aggression against ukraine. So we are all in this boat together, we are all struggling. We are providing support to our citizens, and well continue to maintain stability in the Transnistrian Region of moldova. We have absolutely no interest in any escalation. To be honest, its not up to you, is it . You say, we will continue to maintain stability. If the russians choose to decide that what they call their compatriots, and let us not forget that at least 200,000 people who live in transnistria have russian passports, if moscow chooses to say that they must act in defence of these people, what are you going to do about it . Well, as long as ukraine remains resolute in being able to defend its territory, there isnt much that the russians can do. Weve just discussed how. And i dont mean to be rude, but how relatively weak your military is. So i come back to the question, what can you do about it . Well, at this point, the russians cannot get to the republic of moldova. The front line is relatively far away, although too close for comfort, and as long as ukraine remains capable to defend itself and by extension, defending us they cannot get to the republic of moldova. And we have Constant Contact with our citizens in the left bank and the so called authorities in the Transnistrian Region to maintain stability, to provide them access to everything they need, to make sure that we maintain peace and stability. The only solution that we see to the Transnistrian Conflict is a peaceful solution to the conflict. Sadly for you, its increasingly not just about transnistria, because if we look to another territory which has autonomy and is deeply unhappy with rule from chisinau im talking about gagauzia there, the local leadership, led by evghenia gutul, are also increasingly looking to moscow for protection from what they say is the oppressive rule coming from you and your government. In fact, miss gutul has been in moscow twice this year, and putin says he is willing to help her. Well, its not clear what is more shameful for her to have a picture with a murderous dictator or for him to have a picture with the person who basically stole the election and was virtually unknown a few weeks ago, before the election, and with money from russia. The oligarch that was convicted in moldova to 15 years in prison by the court of appeals, who is now apparently in russia, is trying to create this instability to rattle the situation in the republic of moldova. But our citizens, both in Gagauzia Autonomy and in the rest of the republic of moldova, they want stability. They dont want to be part of this foreign efforts to destabilise the situation and to have us hostages of their plans to promote a pro russian government in moldova, to stab ukraine in the back, nobody wants that. But in a sense, as we go through this litany of problems youve got, arent all of these signs of your weakness . Youve just referred to the backer of ms gutul in gagauzia, ilan shor is the man youre talking about now. Now, hes an extremely rich businessman who stands accused of significant, Serious Fraud in your country. He left the country. He, of course, denies the allegations, but he now faces very serious charges. He went to israel, hes been seen in m