Now on Bbc News political thinking with nick robinson. Hello, And welcome to political thinking a conversation with, rather than a newsy interrogation, of someone who shapes our political thinking about what a shape theirs. My guest this week has just celebrated ending the longest Train Drivers strike in history a strike that was blamed for crippling the railways And angered many, many travellers. His members haVe Got a 15 Pay Rise over three years. He is Mick Whelan, The General secretary of aslef. He said that his members strength, resilience, And determination was what had won that Pay Rise others say it was down to his crafty negotiation style. Mick whelan, welcome to political thinking. Thank you, nick. You finally got a deal after all that time how did you celebrate . Erm, by talking to the press. As soon as it becomes public knowledge, you And your colleagues obviously, so sky, bbc, the guardian, the usual outlets, And press will be Here Today With You And once you ve done that, i ll admit, i got changed And went down the road, went out with a couple of colleagues, had a couple of guinnesses, then went home to my family. Now, you said that, when labour got elected something, of course, you want, you re the chair of Labour Trade unions the adults had entered The Room in those negotiations. What did you mean . Well, i ve been negotiating at various levels, this industry And the movement for about a0 years. And ifound myself in a really odd position whereby we went to the people that we work for under the privatised industry, who we have Negotiating Rights with, And they said, we can no longer talk to you. You Ve Got to talk to the government. To be told by the government, well, we can t talk to you. You Ve Got to talk to your employer. So, that left us in a rather difficult position. So, you know, there are only two things to do something or nothing. So we decided, as in each of those 14 companies, as the pay awards ran out, we would ballot our members, And hope that the Leverage And Pressure they gave us would actually make Somebody Talk to us. And for those two years, i have to say, it was the maddest process i ve ever been in. Because . Because nobody wanted to resolve it, nobody really wanted to talk to us. When you say, the Grown Ups walked into The Room, just paint the picture. Labour have won an election. The phone goes pretty quickly afterwards. Seriously all we d asked. What happened . Well, quite basically, chronology wise, labour won on the fourth. On the fifth, they appointed Lou Hague Secretary of state. They appointed Lord Hendy on the ninth. I believe the initial meeting with myself And the Sister Trade unions we met at different times, of course was on the tenth. And we laid out what we believed our belief was, they put a new team in place, And, contrary to popular belief, it was not an easy negotiation. They did not want to be seen as caving in Orjust Rolling over in a two year dispute. And if you were to ask us if we d got everything We Wanted no, we didn t, but we got an equitable resolution. You didn t get them to cave in, because everybody thinks they did cave in. Labour got into power, thought, let s get this dispute out of the way. Here s this nice guy who supports the Labour Party, union s just given 100,000 to the Labour Party before its manifesto launch, let s give them what they want. Well, if it had been that easy, i d done it sooner. But it s not realpolitik realpolitik is you re cutting cloth it is about what is going to be compared to other people s Pay Rises, the 22 Billion Black Hole that we now have been found additionally in the finances, or whatever else. And if anybody thinks it was an easy negotiation, it wasn t. But actually, it was a nice negotiation, because people wanted to talk to you And wanted to find a resolution. Now, i liked a quote that i saw of you, after this was settled because you And i have had lots of interviews, And i ve had a go at you occasionally on the Radio Thing with the things that people say about Train Drivers And aslef And you said, i ll never be content. What did you mean . Well, it s not the role of a Trade Union General Secretary to be content. We re aspirational actually, if you listen to most politicians, they talk about being aspirational for the people they represent. All Trade Unions do is a microcosm of that. So, Train Drivers will always want to improve their conditions, they ll always want Cost Of Living Pay Rises. They will always want a betterfuture. It s my role to articulate that policy. You went on to say, i m an argumentative bustard. Yes because that s what i m best at. And it was in the context of a six minute speech, which was slightly longer. But, you know, when people were asking me, what if . It was that what if moment, what if labour don t do this . What if labour don t do that . I said, we ll do what we always do we ll campaign, we ll fight. And i m an argumentative, And i ll keep arguing until we get where we need to be. Have you always been since you were a little kid . I was quite shy when i was younger, but my dad had a real thing about education And a real thing about being able to articulate. And my wife has even is the same she sent all the kids to acting not because she wanted to be actress, but she wanted them to be able to have self confidence. And it was always about stAnding up for yourself. I was never the biggest kid in The Room, never whatever else. But my dad was incredibly well read strange enough, was part of the socialist Worker Party And very, very left wing. Far more left wing than i possibly am. Yeah, both of your parents are very political, i know very sadly, your mother s only just died a few days ago your mum, maureen And your dad, sean but both of them, very political. Yes, they always had this thing about what was right And wrong. And there was always a discussion going on In The House, so there was always people In The House, always books In The House. There was always that. My dad had a very simple mantra. He said, i don T Care what you do in life, as long as you chose to do it. So he was massive on education. He said, look, you can be anything you want, as long as you choose to be that, as long as you re not forced to be that. That s the only thing that would disappoint me. And i tried to carry that on with my kids. You went to quite a posh School you went to the same School as tony blair s kids, the 0ratory. So i went to a primary School over the ha penny steps, just near grenfell. Catholic primary my parents are irish immigrants And they took me into a room one day with 3 4 others And said, sit this test. So i answered these questions, And then, was given some of us were given the opportunity to go to cardinal vaughan, a Grammar School at the time, And some got the opportunity to go to the 0ratory. What the 0ratory was very, very good for me, was it was the first time i knew i was poor. Really why . Just as you look around that School. . As i looked around the people that i was with, it was a very different demographic. Many of the people there were sons of ambassadors, And other things. And, you know, i also found out then how much my parents had to give up for me to go there. You know, Lab Coats And rugby shirts, And things that we d never even thought about. I d never seen a Rugby Ball before i went to the 0ratory, had i . Because your dad worked at a building site, your mum worked in a Sweet Shop at euston, at a train station. So there s not a lot of money back then . No, not back then. And my parents came home in the very late 50s. So it was very much the era of no blacks, no dogs, no irish. And that funded into, you know, the thinking In The House And discussions In The House. But also, you know, there s this thing about when Trade Union leaders get together, we sit in a room And out poor Each Other. Well, there s four of us in one bedroom. And i went through that period of time, you know, as you said, we weren t rich. But there was my mum, dad, myself, my sister in a one bedroom flat for a period of time until we got a bigger Council House And things moved on. And being irish, orfrom irish parents, at least, did that shape your attitude . Very much so. I mean, there is a cultural aspect And a Socialisation Aspect to everything that you do. So yeah, a lot of it. And then, the idea of Fighting Irish Fighting Irish isn t always about physical battles, it is, you know i look around the movement And i ve seen everybody from Billy Hayes to bob crow, to frances 0 grady, tojoe 0 grady, now Mick Lynch, whatever there is a big thread through the Trade Union movement of people of irish heritage. Mick lynch, leader of the rmt, the other big Rail Union you are the drivers, he represents pretty much Everybody Else not quite Everybody Else, but pretty much Everybody Else both went to the same primary School, ifind, in west london, And both come from irish parents. And both lived in the same estate for a period of time. I m a bit older than he is, though, i won t say how much older. Yeah, you weren T Playing in the playground together at that stage. And sharon graham, leader of unite, one of the biggest unions also from irish parents. Yes, And i think there s something in there that makes you if you see injustice And you want to articulate about it, that gives you that, that fire or that ambition. Does it also give you an empathy for people who are disadvantaged . It does, And also, other people. I always thought it was best bringing everybody up, And not leaving anybody behind. And, you know, it isn tjust about how you move on. It s how you bring future generations on. Now, you say your dad cared passionately about education, got you to a good School. You aimed to go to university, but you couldn t. Unfortunately, dad had fell off a scaffold And broke his back. I went to my mum And said, i ll take a year out. I ll be quite honest, i didn t actually know what a year out was. It was a phrase that i d heard. Yeah, you didn t mean a Gap Year . I didn t mean a Gap Year, And i didn t mean whatever else because. And my mother, being irish, said, look, if you re not going to School, you re going to work. Back then, there were only four banks barclays, lloyds, midlAnd, natwest. So i applied for all four, turned up at barclays, And had this interview And the most interesting interview i ve ever had, he said, do you play rugby . I said, yes. He said, will you play rugby for the bank . I said, yes, he said, you Ve Got thejob. I think it was a slightly different world back then. And i entered into a world which i m not quite sure i enjoyed. But what struck me as interesting, i read, is that your dad s ambition for you was not a particular job, butjust not being like he was. Not having to do what he had to do, manual work. Well, that s right, i mean. You know, at the time, i think My Uncle was living with us, My Uncle was an electrician. Electricians were quite well paid, but they all had this Aspiration Nobody went on the site, because it wasn t safe. It was a different world. We are talking about the 70s where, you know, there was very little legislation, very little protections And my dad, actually, when he had his accident, received no compensation at all, because there was no employer s liability insurance, there was nothing wrong with it. And that also fuels into your ambition then about that shouldn t happen, And it can t happen to other people. So that makes you very political. Now presumably, your mum, your dad regarded most Labour Leaders as a Sell Out . Well, my dad did. My mum had an affinity for Harold Wilson for some reason, i don t know. But yeah, you know. But generally, they were way to the left. They were way to the left, whatever. And, you know. And so are you, no . I was back in the day, i mean, look, young, angry, inarticulate, sit in those rooms in Malet Street with the Socialist Alliance And others, all arguing that We Wanted to change the world And do the same things, then arguing about what mantra we were going to use to do it. And that was, as you know yourself, that becomes incredibly And i imagine that happened in your university, in The Rooms that you were in, as well. Yeah, of course. But what s interesting is that, when Keir Starmer gets elected, people then say that he had a left wing past, but he s junked it whereas you ve been quite open that you like the manifestos ofJeremy Corbyn. You liked 2017, you liked 2019. I think you re still a friend withjeremy, aren t you . Yes look, it was a once in a lifetime moment. The opportunity didn t happen. You know, 2017, we came within 2,000 votes of running the country. I still look at some of the rhetoric used againstjeremy And some of the way that the establishment turned upon him, And i do think, what were they scared of . Because at the end of the day, parliamenT Works in the way in which parliament does, tied by its riggers And tied by the constraints of the economy. How different, in their views as against tactics, as against what they feel they need to say to get elected, is Keir Starmer from Jeremy Corbyn . And you know him well now, don t you . Chair of the labour unions, 11 affiliate unions. It s fundamentally, but also, he s running on a platform of competence. You know, we have had the most, in my view, economically illiterate government for a decade And a half that we ve ever seen. I don t understAnd the 1a years of austerity And the running down of the country its infrastructure, its services. I don t understAnd how we became the highest Borrowing Government of all time outside of covid if you discounted covid, if you added every parliament in history together, the tories borrowed more money than anybody else. Where did it go . What did we spend it on . What did we get for it . But what do you say when people now worry, as some do, that this Labour Government is committed to austerity . It s talking about 22 Billion that it s got to find, it s already cut the Winter Fuel Allowance for Ten Million pensioners. Do you think there is a danger of that . There s always a danger. If you run on a platform, we which we did, of there s 1a million people in poverty And One Million people in Destitution Anything that s seen to make that is worse quite naturally. But i do understAnd the fledgling government saying, well, hold on, we re six weeks in, give us a chance. Right, we ve committed to do all these things in our manifesto. We ve had to pull the 28 Billion for green projects because of the hole that was there, because we d end up with another truss weekend. You know, we don t want to do this. And i truly do believe when they say they don t want to do it. And, you know, we ll have that debate at conference next week. I imagine the unions will be asking for them to change their mind. Well, we know, don t we, that unite, with The General secretary, sharon graham, has put down a motion And she has argued that, And i quote, workers And communities voted for change, for a better Future Notjust better management And not cuts to the Winter Fuel Allowance. Do you agree . Doesn t that come back to your original thing about me being argumentative, And whatever else . Look, And being discontent you always want more, you always want better. But you agree with that . I agree that, you know look, there ll be priorities, right . And i do believe it is for the government to dictate those priorities, or whatever else. And the debate of what those priorities are, the pressure will come from the various Trade Unions And sectors for their priorities And what they want. But you ll vote against the cut in the Winter Fuel Allowance . I will vote against the cut in the Winter Fuel Allowance. Is Keir Starmer too gloomy . Gloomy or honest . You know, ithink there is we had. I think political discourse in the last 15 years, Post Brexit And trump, changed in many ways. And i think the way in which it changed was, it became seen as seedy And dishonourable, And less fact based. And when you Ve Got somebody now telling you the truth, is that now a revelation, And do we attack them for telling the truth . Or do we say, well, what do we do about that truth . Sounds like you think starmer is a guy that you don t necessarily agree with on quite a lot, but you can do business with . I agree with him on quite a lot. I might disagree about how we re going to get there. Well, let s turn to pay, And what you learnt from that dispute. What you got And how your tactics worked. You ve often said, look, your members that had their pay frozen or cut over time i think i pointed out to you on one edition of the Today Programme that, between 2009 And 2021, Train Drivers got a 17 real terms pay increase, whereas the average employee in britain got a 1 real terms