Penalty. Joining me now is a journalist who covers National Security and terrorism for the washington post. And with me in new york is a special correspondent for the daily beast. Welcome to you both. What do we know now that we did not know yesterday . I dont know if there is anything dramatic we know. You have more of a picture of , a computers man chose him. He worked for a hotel in uzbekistan. He was 21 years old and he wins. Whether or not he wanted to do it, everyone said, you won the lottery. He comes and stays with some people in ohio and has an idea that, he was a bookkeeper and a hotel back home and thought he might do it here, but he doesnt speak english. So the guy he was staying with was driving trucks, so he started driving trucks. You can see this guy kind of solitary driving all over the United States in his truck, going back to his family. He gets married, has two daughters, then his wife becomes pregnant with a third child. If you think he is planning this year, that means that whole time that she is pregnant he is coming home and he is planning Something Like that, while the son is coming into being. The son is born. That does not change anything. While he is starting life, daddy is collecting videos of isis beheadings, tortures, and murders on his cell phone. One of the things i noted about where he was living in new jersey, one of the toys up front was a little fire engine. He comes to the city of new york and you look at a fire engine and you think of the fdny, and that makes you think of 9 11. Yesterday, there was a truck from 1010, which is the firehouse from the world trade center, driving down the path this guy took washing away the blood. There was a Police Helicopter above it. I think there has been nothing we learned about him that we didnt kind of know the minute you heard it happened. Another lone loser, a guy who picked stuff up from isis. If you follow the isis magazines all, you kind of new can of knew. We are talking about the isis playbook. And even talked about you should throw leaflets. This guy thought that was two pieces of paper. He did everything except for the end where he is supposed to martyr himself. He had a fake gun and could not get to his knives and does not martyr himself. Now you have the president of the United States saying he should be executed. Maybe thats not going to break this guys heart. This is the case we are hearing about radicalization of that happened after he was here in the United States. Yesterday in the papers, we are talking about 90 videos, 38 00 images recovered from his cell phone and other places. And what he has described according to Court Documents is he watched these videos a lot. They both encouraged and i think probably got him more accustomed to the notion of taking lives and hurting people, because the videos he is watching are obviously pretty gruesome. It seems like he was using the videos and other things to psych himself up. That is the description we are getting from folks working the case. It is as mike said, an incredibly sad thing, but also very predictable in the sense that he had a flash bang of about a year. Meaning, he started to think about this a year ago. Two months ago, he got very mysterious about it. We were told that in recent weeks he had practiced driving rental trucks. Michael now he is driving an uber, probably not too happy. What does he do . He scouts that route. This guy is driving along the west side highway on manhattan, one of the most beautiful thing she could see, beautiful things you can see, people walking, biking, jogging, and living their lives along the water with the statue of liberty off to the right and the Freedom Tower rising there, it is just a beautiful thing. Re anddriving through thei he is thinking what he is going to do to kill people. Radicalization i dont know if that is the right word. When you get down to it it is not religion. It is people working out their own personal pathologies, grabbing onto something. I think of the men who flew the first plane into the world trade center, when they went to his father and said he it done it, the fathers reactions that he could not have done that. He is too weak. Osama bin laden was his fathers 53rd kid, but his mommys one and only boy. You can see certain pathologies at work. They latch onto that stuff. It is out there for these guys. He has a whole phone, two phones, of this stuff. Two phones of these kind of twisted ways he can fill everything inside himself that might feel empty. He is not just a guy driving some truck through this bizarre country called america. He has power. He is connected into something big. It wasnt a mistake for him to leave home. I think ultimately he wanted to prove he did win the lottery. I am a winner. I did win something. Because i am with isis. He talked to the cops about hanging an isis flag in his hospital room. I mean, that is a guy who is nuts. That is not a guy who is radicalized. That is a guy who became nuts, i think. Combine the pathology with almost the manual, written and published in june this year, almost terror by numbers, and he follows the checklist. Devlin sure. What you have seen here is as terrorism has evolved since 9 11, 9 11 compared to this was complex and sophisticated. Big,is literally find a heavy vehicle and find some pedestrians and bicyclists and plow them down. There is a detechnologicalization of this whole thing. Isis says use a rock, a car, anything you have, and that will be enough. You can call them pathological, broken people, people who have some serious problems. For them, that is enough. What about this idea, you mentioned a couple of times, that lottery and the visa program. The president yesterday during his press conference went out of the way to say this individual, he was a reference for a number of other people. What do we know about that . Michael that i am not clear on. That stuff is dangerous because you say this guy came in on this plane with this guy, went to this wedding with this guy. Thats like going to a mafia wedding and you think this guy was seen coming in here and later went to dinner with this guy, so i think that stuff is a little dangerous. I dont think the sky was the center of some cell. Some people in the mosque noticed he was getting a little extreme. The more reasonable people told him he ought to cool it. I am sure other people who were hotheaded probably noticed, they passedy past remarks remarks or Something Like that. This guys plot consisted of going to home depot, taking the 19. 95, putting down a deposit, leaves his car, and then go and does it. That is his whole plot. What about this idea that has has the actual caliphate get smaller and smaller and faces more intense military pressure in that part of the world that the virtual caliphate seems to grow rapidly. Devlin i think there is a lot of truth to that. I think certainly the virtual caliphate, the notion that the ideas themselves can be infectious for small percentage of people is true. And you dont really need a coherent state to make that happen. Fear other point, to your other point, as far as the points of contact and the 23 other individuals, if it helps you understand, he was listed as a point of contact for 23 other who came or wanted to come from uzbekistan to america. That is not the same thing as sponsoring someone. Hewas a green card holder so can sponsor anyone to come here beyond his wife and children. So there has been a lot of misinformation about what that 23 people point of contact thing means. And frankly it does not mean a ton. However, in the course of the last year or two, the fbi was interested in a friend of his and that is how he came on the radar ever so slightly before this happened. What that says to me is they were not focused on him. They were looking at someone else. The thing said to me is that the uzbek community is such a small immigrant community in this country that a lot of them know each other and use each other as references or have two degrees of separation. We are being cautioned by sources to not read too much into these things because it is a small and insular immigrant community. Governor cuomo said there is no evidence to suggest a wider plot or wider scheme. Can we confirm that . There is definitely a plot in the isis puts the cell. Puts all this stuff out. They put out a recipe for a Pressure Cooker bomb. Ok we will not do the Pressure Cookers, more with Christmas Tree lights. We will do the trucks. That is a plot. Someone set something in motion figuring Something Else will do it. That is a plot. It is a very large plot in a sense. The individuals involved are not necessarily involved with other people, but it is a scheme, and for them it works. If you walk down where this latest thing happened and look at the Freedom Tower and look at the memorial pools and see the names of all the people murdered that day, then you say to yourself, what do we do about the names of these people who got murdered on halloween . Where do we put that in our National History . That wasnt pearl harbor day. It was smaller, but not smaller to each one of those families and it certainly seems it will continue on. The way you can combat hijacked airplanes is, you can throw up tsa everywhere and search everybody and go through underwear and do all that. What are you going to do, vet everybody at home depot . I dont know how you defend against that. There was backandforth about whether this individual should be sent to guantanamo or tried in civilian courts. A lot of that came from the president himself. Devlin the Justice Department is basically plowing forward with its case and the fbi are plowing forward. To the extent they can, they have been tuning out that white house running commentary going on at the same time. One of the oddities of this whole thing has been first the president tweets, or says he should be sent to gitmo, and then overnight has a change of heart and says definitely keep him in new york and try him there. The whole time that is going on, the prosecutors are doing their case, fbi are doing their case , and the two things are not speaking to each other in any meaningful way. As much as the president seems to be all over the map as far as the policy issues go, this Straight Line of the doj and fbi seems to be clear at this point, that they are preparing for what could be a Death Penalty case, and that so far does not seem to be affected by anything coming out of washington or the white house. What about trying to find a jury that doesnt know what the president thinks should be done . Michael most juries would probably not pay any attention to what this president says. We are in the city of new york. [laughter] michael i think it was a great victory to have this guy appear charged as a murderer. Not as an enemy combatant. Of murdering innocent people. I think it is a victory. There comes that moment when the judge comes in, all rise. This guy will rise one way or another. The proceeding goes and hes going to get a fair trial. The jurors, in any city, jurors work at doing their duty. Most juries are beautiful things to see. This one of the great things of america, i think. Our response will be the right response. I would rather see him in Manhattan Criminal Court personally. I would rather have him in Rikers Island with some people who could introduce him what to do. I think it was a victory. The worst thing that could happen would be to send this guy to gitmo as an enemy combatant. All those years, 16 years after a man murdered thousands of people in downtown manhattan, he is down there dying his beard with koolaid. He still has not gone to trial. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. We leave you tonight with an interview charlie taped earlier this month with the iconic portrait photographer Annie Leibowitz. Her latest collection is called Annie Leibowitz portraits. Charlie tell me how, look at this, Annie Leibowitz portraits 20052016. Why this book now . Annie i have done over the years books that are works that are accumulated over time. I had a book in 1990 then did a book in 2005, 19902005. Those were the years i was with susan sontag. Over a year ago, it mustve been three months before the election and i was working on a show that was going to be at this brandnew incredible, this kind of brandnew museum of the world. It was my work from 19701983, which was with Rolling Stone magazine, over a thousand photographs. I saw so many images that repeated, history repeating. I was thinking of all the work it was august i was thinking of all the work i had accumulated since 2005 and i thought, you know, i should try to do an edit of my work now that would include the work i did on the updating of the womens project and the series on artists, and would end with Hillary Clinton in the white house. That would be my ending. Charlie that was your plan. Annie that was my plan. It was not an end, hillary and the white house was going to be a beginning. I put all the work together. It was actually fairly simple to do that because there was so much work from 2005. Charlie and then we had an election. Annie then we had an election. I was like everyone else, i was in shock. Actually i guess a week or so later i mean, i was very lucky because i happened to be with Gloria Steinem, the womens show was opening here in new york, and she was so incredible. I was very lucky to be with someone who had been through so much pain, seen so many things go wrong and sort of has come out of them. We were sort of Walking Around like lost sheep, not knowing what had happened, it was pathetic. So i actually told them i did not want to do the book. I dont want to do this. Charlie even though you had put a lot of work into it. Annie yes, yes, but i did not have my ending. I love my books because they tell a story of the time. It is a collection. Its what i dont get to do working for the magazines. The magazines are wonderful. They are luxury vehicles to take my photographs, but the books tell these stories, so charlie the story you wanted to tell was not there. Annie it wasnt there. I floundered. They said, come on, you can do it. I think the book falls apart towards the end. I really do think in the last 2030 pages you can feel not knowing where to go or what to do. I have was throwing everything in there. I shot kate mckinnon, throw her in. I shot oprah, threw her in. I shot springsteen, throw him in. We had to pick ourselves up. I tried to photograph people who were doing good things. Charlie one of the things you wrote is, i guess you could say they were years when the culture was shifting in ways we did not quite take in. Annie we didnt. We didnt. Charlie from 20052016. Annie i think when i think about this period, it is such a beautiful period because it was the obama years and he was such a great statesman and such an elegant man, and mrs. Obama, but my job is not just politics as you know. It is to look at us over all. We were thrown topsyturvy. Look at the photographs at the beginning of the book of the trumps. He is an amusing popculture character that became the president , then you have this great woman who shouldve been the president of United States. Charlie it still be wilderness bewilders people, doesnt it . Annie you and i have been alive for long time. We know we will write ourselves. We just feel this. I feel the womens march, which was really a march of humanity where everybody came out. Home ate and nine, night, have dinner with my kids. I go over to the tv set. I have the choice of am i going to see what trump did today or am i going to watch vietnam, which is incredible. Charlie a series by ken burns. Annie a brilliant series. Which Hillary Clinton and clinton interview and i going to watch tonight . It is just that i have to believe, i believe in us as people and i know we will and Gloria Steinem said this, that we are a movement, not one person. Charlie and america is an idea too, as bono said. America is an idea in the country, 200 years has gone here and here. Conflict and challenge. But you have been a witness to all of that. Annie it has been a privilege, to spend my life photographing our times, and i feel responsible. I will continue. I do think it is not about one picture or two pictures. It is a movie, a film. Charlie you and i have been doing a similar thing. Annie i thought that too. I think it is interesting you took yourself out of the studio. Charlie yeah. Dissimilar toot go on location and out in the field to see whats going on out in the field. Charlie we are telling the story of our time to the people of our time. You have said given enough time that you can find the essence of a person. Annie let me move in and i promise you we will find your soul within a few weeks. We will definitely have your soul. We dont have that amount of time. I dont expect that from people i photograph. Those really beautiful, incredible, soulful pictures are few and far between, but you can still document fairly well. Charlie you said the photographers life is really the closest to who you are. That is your signature. Annie photographers life, it is interesting you bring that up, because it was so important to me when i did it. When i discovered this story of knowing susan and my children being born and my father dying, there was nothing that would stop me from working on that collection of material. The final work seemed relevant to me. Charlie for all the reasons you have talked about and we have written about. Annie i came out of a photographers life, and as the years went on, i realized i wanted to work on my portrait work and i felt i let my family, my children, susan it was too vulnerable. I dont have a regret about it. I think it is very strong work. Susan said that photography interferes too much with experience, and i think that she could be right. She could be right after all. I wonder what she would say today about what is going on with our iphones. Charlie was there something missing from the photographers life that you thought should have been in there . Annie no, but the thing about being a photographer is that photography is the experience. That is what is interesting. Charlie phot