Of the election and about the result of the election. He is making claims that are dangerous, completely false, and doing so with an interviewer who is not an interviewer at all. This was not hardball, not even softball. This was tee ball. Maria bartiromo once a feared and acclaimed journalist known for working the floor of the new york stock exchange, forcing ceos to tell the truth, now sits behind a desk and invites the president to lie and lie and lie. To do it for more than half an hour, to do it 26 days after the election. 22 days after fox and all of the other Major Networks called the election for President Elect joe biden. You might have thought after a week or after two weeks the president would start to accept the reality that he lost. You know, he hadnt given any interviews for three weeks. He had not even called into fox friends or newsmax. It was a good deal that he gave had interview. His very First Television interview since the election. I would tell you he was defiant and vowed to fight on, but those are words of strength. What we are seeing from the president is delusional weakness. Unable or unwilling to accept reality. So we are going to blow up our original plan to start this program and bring in two experts who understand the media and understand fox. Oliver darcy is cnns senior Media Reporter with Amanda Carpenter, cnn commentator and the author of gaslighting america. I want to summarize this interview without repeating the lies that are being spread. Why dont you start off and tell us why this was so disturbing. You know, history will not remember people like Maria Ba Bartiromo very well. The interview with trump, its an example of why not. I was trying to think of a word that would describe that interview and i dont think there is a word in the English Dictionary to describe how reckless and irresponsible and dangerous that interview was. It wasnt an interview. She was inviting him to lie and spin fantasies on her program suggesting that he won, which is just delusional at this point. She interviewed him like she was sw interviewing someone not spinning lies, Conspiracy Theories, you know. It was irresponsible. It was reckless. Thats the problem. You are absolutely right. Maria bartiromo is taking the president seriously when he is spinning up delusional stories about mass voter fraud, about machines being rigged, about the dodger and t doj and fbi being in on it. Fox agents like he is serious and telling the truth when they know he is full of you know what, full of b. S. Its gone on for four years now. Its not excusable. But it sure is heck not as excusable now when millions of people end up buying into these lies. Right. She is not being a journalist. She is being a propagandist. Thats what fox news employs. There would be outrage if fox news hired someone like inowe wars alex jones to be anchoring a show on the network. There is not much daylight between maria and alex jones. She is accepting the same delusional Conspiracy Theories that the president is spinning. She is encouraging him. She is acting shocked. Can you confirm this . He spins another lie and she acts shocked and said, wow, people dont believe the Election Results. Well, gee, i wonder why. Its so sad. Its sad for the president who is about to leave office and this is going to be the last chapter of his administration and its sad that a journalist like bartiromo, who had a storied career, is now not a journalist at all. She is now on there teeing up the president to lie to the viewers. I dont know if its for ratings. I dont know if its for her own career. She has a longterm contract. She shouldnt be worried about the next week or month. She can do the right thing. She goes on and on. For example, trump said World Leaders are calling him and telling him how messed up the u. S. Election is. Bartiromo didnt say which World Leaders. She pretended he was telling the truth. He said they stuffed the ballot boxes. She didnt ask who. She just sat there and listened. Lies about a Voting Machine Company dominion. So Amanda Carpenter, let me coucome to you. What stood out to you in this dialogue, really more of a monologue, the president delivering a series of speeches on fox vowing, claiming that he won the election . I think oliver hit the nail on the head when he described this as propaganda. Thats what we witnessed last hour between maria bart Roam Answerand the president. This is her choice, brian. I think this is a choice that many in the right of center media are making. They no longer see it as their job to deliver the news, to ask tough questions, but it act as a function of trumps republican party. This is a dynamic i think has been on a slow boil over time. When you see fox, this isnt just maria bartiromo. The Fox News Network decided to give the president almost a full hour to lie, not just a regular lie, but about our elections, and a way that will affect the incoming administration. And so they are playing with our government and our politics and not its not just donald trump. Its what maria did, what fox gave her the platform to do. I dont see any rolling this back. Its important that we diagnose this. This is propaganda. If the rnc, if the Trump Campaign produced a commercial, brian, it would be more constrained by the truth to go on the airwaves than what transpired that hour. It is embarrassing by fox, the murdochs, because they are putting this platform for trump not to be challenged whatsoever about the reality of the election. Think about the timeline here. Earlier in the week the government the gsa did go it ahead and accept reality and begin the transfer of power, begin the transition planning. That is all happening. President elect biden appointing Staff Members and aides and officials. Thats happening. Yet also this week trump brought reporters in and took questions for the first time in three weeks. He yelled at some of the reporters and made up lies about voter fraud. And now here he is giving his first Phone Interview and doing more of the same. This suggests to me not someone who is going through the five stages of grief, getting closer to acceptance. This suggests someone digging in. Doubling down on the grift. Trying to raise money off of this lie about winning the election. Yeah, and i actually wonder how much he is going to maybe now engage with some members of the media now that he has gone on marias show, engaged with reporters the past few days, maybe he is planning to spin these lies more and use media apratdis it to so. News organizations and i think fox claims to be one have a responsibility, you know, in this moment in american democracy where the president of the United States is trying to overturn the election, trying to undermine the integrity of our system. They have a responsibility to be very clear with viewers about whats going on. And you are not seeing it on fox. When you are seeing is executives sign off on people like maria to go on air, to lie to the viewers, spin Conspiracy Theories, and its dangerous i dont know whats worse. Bartiromo knows he is lying or if she believes it. Watch how she reacted to what trump said about fraud. This election was a fraud. It was a rigged election. This is disgusting. And we cannot allow americas election to be corrupted. Sometimes she seems like she believes this stuff. The real fraud is the president s claims about fraud. America has this wonderful decentralized system of elections. Things are not handled federally. They are handled at the local level. Its all working according to plan. Trump has tried to sue. He sued filed his his campaign filed dozens of cases. They have lost 20, 25, 50 times in the courts. So the system is working, and that is causing trump to claim the system is rigged. Amanda, you have a great family like i do. If i were on television talking this which, my wife would take the phone away. I am not kidding about that. If i was tweeting the kinds of crazy stuff that the president s been tweeting for four years, my wife would take the phone way. My Executive Producer would get hoo my ear. They would change the password. Why has no one successfully intervened in the president s delusions . Well, you talk about family. I think its because the people surrounding him dont love him. They fear him. Really . They fear him. So they cower in his presence. If you love someone you would direct them to a better path. Your wife would take the phone away and say, brian, this will not end well. No one does that because they live in fear of him. I was watching senator blount on state of the Union Earlier today. He is viewed as a responsible member. He was asked do you accept the Election Results . Is joe biden the Vice President elect . And he couldnt bring himself to say this. He kept going back to this over and over, we are going to kwwai for certification. Allowing that time to transpire, they give donald trump more runway to air these lies because no one will stand up and say, of course the election is settled, of course we havent found widespread voter fraud. We accept the results. When everyone kowers to him they give him more air time like we saw this morning to question the integrity of the election and destroy trust in government which is really the biggest problem we face right now with the pandemic. Right. Fundamentally, that is what this is about, destroying trust in the election system. Delegitimizing bidens presidency. This is something that maybe i naively thought would be owned by the end of november. We are living this Zombie Election because trump wont accept reality. Right. We can come on here, and i think we have been doing this for years, saying that fox is being irresponsible, being reckless, pumping out propaganda. I feel almost like even though its getting worse and worse and worse, people may not realize it. We need to be clear and explain to people. I dont know. Might need to be another word to describe the behavior we saw in the last hour. This is insanity. This is craziness coming interest the president , and again fox news executives, the biggest microphone in the country, they are letting him spin these lies. Its outrageous. I dont know what else to say. Frankly, i am out of words. Its frustrating to watch. It is frustrating to watch. It absolutely is. And as our colleague just pointed out on twitter, many members of the gop are echoing or indull jging this 26 days af the election. Thank you beth for setting us up here. I have a greatest guests coming up. The top editor of politico and the heads of the two top press Freedom Advocacy groups in america. This question. Can President Elect biden undo the years of damage done by trumps antimedia attacks . We will get into that. And later, walking away from accountability. Which governors are avoiding the press amid the covid19 crisis and why . Ill be home for christmas you can count on me ill be home for christmas if Only In My Dreams if Only In My Dreams hey kim with 5 cash back on travel purchased through chase from freedom unlimited, you can now earn even more. Book that hotel kim, because you are worth it. I am worth it. Now earn 5 on travel purchased through chase and so much more. Chase. Make more of whats yours. On all the food that makes you boogie. 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When you are delusional, you dont. He wanted to remind me there is something more dangerous than a liar. Someone who is delusional. What do you see happening with the Trump White House . Is it delusion . Is that whats happening . My next guest says that the president s behavior, the out goings attacks against the Election Integrity are attacks on reality itself. Jonathan rasch wrote this in 2018. He called it the constitution of knowledge. He is now turning it into a book. He joins me now, Senior Fellow at the brookings institution. Jonathan, delusion, i have been afraid not afraid. I have been sensitive about using that word, cautious about using that word in the trump years, not wanting to assume i know whats going on in the president s head. What could ydo you see . Is delusion a fair word for these election lies . No, actually, i dont think it is. Its hard to know, brian, whats going on in the mind of the president , but you dont really need to. What you need to know is that what he is running right now is a classic russianstyle Disinformation Campaign of a type known as the fire hose of falsehood. You utilize every channel, not just media, but also the bully pulpit, even litigation to push out as many different stories and Conspiracy Theories and lies and halftruths as you possibly can to flood the zone if with disinformation. The goal is to confuse people. He is doing very well at that. This is classic propaganda tactic. He is very good at it. Doesnt matter whats going on in his head. What matters is what he is doing. And you are saying its very effective. Is Information Warfare the way to think about this correctly . Yes. Information warfare is exactly the way to think about this. Information warfare is about manipulating and organizing the social environment and the media environment to confuse, discombobulate your enemies, to isolate them, to demoralize them to they dont know whats true or false anymore, they get very frustrated. We just heard on your show the intense frustration. How do we deal with that . Thats the point. You get demorized. You creed t you you cede the ground. A single lie can be debunked. A massive conspiracy theory, he is alleging a Pee Conspiracy Th which involved thousands of people. Isnt conspiracy theoryizing about collective identity in millions of people buy into a theory because its the in group, its their identity . There is no theory here, brian. A Fire Hose Falsehood campaign, its not about having one idea and pumping it out consistently. Its Throwing Spaghetti against the wall. I see. Its anything and everything. It can be wild. It can be random. Its to create confusion and ep stem i can chaos. Thats what we are seeing. Thats very hard for democracies to deal with it. Traditionally we dealt with it by not doing it. It was unthinkable before trump for anyone to run this kind of Disinformation Campaign from the white house against the american public. Once it happens, i think the best defense to start with is for people, at least a lot of people, to understand whats going on, to realize whats happening here. Thats where this show is very important. Fire hose falsehood, is the gop now the fire hose of falsehood party . I dont know about party. You know, well see. Trump is going to be out of office. He is going to continue using these tactics. A lot of republicans i think have realized these tactics are effective and can work and the electoral penalty for them is small to nonexistent. So now we have got a group in american politics, there are certainly more on the republican side than the democratic side, that have figured out that disinformation and confusion can be effective in politics. Trump is a master at using these tactics. I think he is better than putin. He is better innovator, adapted these things to the American Social media climate masterfully. I dont think anyone else in the party is that good at it or motivated. We will see if this will become a standard tactic from now on. Zooming out more widely, this idea that reality is under attack, traditionally knowledge is gained and knowledge is obtained and knowledge is shared and how that s