Transcripts For CNNW CNN 20240704 : vimarsana.com

CNNW CNN July 4, 2024

At first, i wasnt sure. But i have come to believe that he knew well he had lost the election. And now, what i think is important is the government assumed the burden of proving that. The government, in the indictment, takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasnt stolen through fraud. They have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Thats a high bar. That leads me to believe that were only seeing the tip of the iceberg. You believe jack smith has more . I believe he has a lot more. Lets bring in Michael Cohen, Donald Trumps former fixer and attorney. Hes a principal of crisis. Hes the author of the New York Times best seller, revenge how donald trump weaponized the Department Of Justice against his critics. Michael, great to have you here tonight. You heard the former Attorney General, he believes that donald trump knew he lost the election. And what do you think about that being a defense, that his attorneys are going to say, he believed that there was Election Fraud, nobody could ever show evidence of it . Donald will now reach to any defense he thinks will exonerate him from the charges that are being brought against him. He will lie, in order to accomplish that. I have a whole issue with bill barr, to be honest with you. What is it . Bill barr is a man who was Donald Trumps fixer after me. He became the Attorney General of the united states. As far as weaponizing the Department Of Justice, he was the z he was the head of the Department Of Justice. It would be no different than sammie the bull gravano for john gotti. And before he has the ability, if it comes on this station or any station, and talk about what donald trump did, what he needs to do is to come clean himself, talk about, for example, the weaponization of the Justice Department, that donald trump told him to do, including, like what my book is about. How they, meaning bill barr, donald trump, et cetera, weaponized the Justice Department to go against a critic because i refuse to waive my First Amendment constitutional right. Its interesting you say that. He did talk about donald trump weaponizing the doj tonight with Kaitlan Collins. And what bill barr said was, theres no question he believes these understand Tugs Instituti used to go after his enemies. Thats the whole premise of my book. However, who did he use to ef effect the goal . Bill barr. Before bill barr welcomes himself back into polite society, he needs to own what he did. He needs to be accountable for his actions, the same way i did, when i testified in front of the house overnight committee. I can understand why you have strong feelings about him. He said Something Else interesting to Kaitlan Collins tonight, about the amount of carnage, his word, that he thinks that donald trump leaves in his wake. Let me play this for you. He belleaves in his wake, rud lives like this, the people that went up to capitol hill, many that served him in government that got sucked into things. And he leaves all of this carnage in his wake. You think he cares about that . No. He doesnt care about that. Loyalty is a oneway street for him. I feel like you have something to say about that phenomenon. I agree with everything that he said. Except for the fact that he was part of the group that was leaving the carnage in the street. He was part of the people who were weaponizing the Department Of Justice. He is not an innocent baby in this case. He is, in fact, a guilty party. And again, he needs to come clean. As we we believe, the indictment says theres six Unindicted Coconspirators. We have a graphic of who we know believe they are, and th, o we theres a sixth that we have not confird o that is. You know some of those folks, particularly Rudy Giuliani. What do you think is in store for these six Unindicted Coconspirators . A lot of trouble. What will ultimately happen is government will come to these Unindicted Coconspirators and give them an opportunity to tell the truth, to tell their side of the story. Every one of them to knows based on the allegations, the causes of action that were raised in the indictment. Each and every one of them knows that this is me, that theyre talking about. And right now, theyre in the honeymoon stage, where theres an investigation, theyre looking into me. So far, theres nothing happening. Maybe they think they wont be indicted. Maybe they think they have gotten away with something. Thats a foolish way to think. The government, especially jack smith, is not allowing anybody to escape. So, each and every one of them knows that this is me that theyre talking about, and i think its necessary for me to have my attorneys reach out to jack smith and his team to ensure that at least i have an opportunity to provide information. If they havent already. Like, im a Firm Believer that Rudy Giuliani has already spoken. What makes you think that . I understand rudy. Rudy has no interest in intending his remaining days on this planet behind bars for donald trump. In fact, you know, i think the more important thing is not who the six coconspirators are, but rather who is missing from the indictment. Like, for example, you dont see any mention of mark meadows. You see nothing of jared ku kushner. Jared kushner was the secretary of everything. How is it possible he is not listed here . He was there. He was on donalds lap, from the entire time the day that donald entered the white house, to the day he left. How do you explain it . I believe he is a cooperating witness. Jared kushner. Thats interesting. People have pointed out that mark meadows is conspicuously absence from the indictment. But vch jury ared kushner is hi soninlaw. You think Jared Kushner would cooperate . You dont think donald wouldnt throw jared under the bus . Its an emphatic yes. You think the same is true about mark meadows . Absolutely. Whats one thing that bill barr said . Donald trump doesnt care. Hes a oneway street. That means in jared goes down, mark meadows, or Rudy Giuliani, or eastman, or any of them, he doesnt care. Thats just who he is. Re speaking of eastman, eastmans Attorney Says john eastman will not turn on donald trump. Heres what he said earlier tonight. Dr. Eastman is happy to tell his side of the story. To tell the issues he believes are important to the constitution and the country. Under the right circumstances he would share those views and share his recollection of everything happened in 2020. By cooperation, you mean flipping on donald trump or providing indrim nating information, then absolutely not. Interesting. He will share his recollections but not provide incriminating information. The lawyer is talking gibb gibberish. You dont need john eastman to come out and tell the story. Jack smith has the story. He has the Text Messages and emails and the testimony from other witnesses that places john eastman in this scenario. Either hes going to turn around and deny it, which would be a violation for lying to Law Enforcement, or hes going to turn around and corroborate what the other testimony the witnesses have made. Whatever this guy says, its irre irrelevant. Theyre all in the honeymoon stage, where they are not feeling the full force of what jack smith is going to bring on to them. Look, ive been there. And im talking about the Southern District of new york. 24 hours to plead guilty, or theyre filing an 80page indictment thats going to include my wife. Thats on my case. Imagine what jock ack smith and doj is going to do. Knowing they have the information, the testimony, and the Documentary Evidence and so on, to bring all of the people to justice. Donald trump, one of his defenses was, i was just listening to the advice of my counsel. They were telling me to pursue the fraudulent election claims. What do you think of that defense . Thats exactly why rudy, eastman, clark, sidney powell, all of them need to come clean and all of them need to provide testimony because donald is telling them what hes going to do. Hes going to use them as a scap scapegoat, like he did with me. Hes going to use them in order to exonerate himself. And theyre going to be, like me, the ones holding the bag for donald. Re Michael Cohen, great to get your perspective. Thanks for coming in. Kaitlan collins just interviewed former Attorney General bill barr this evening. As you heard, he had a lot to say about trumps legal trouble. You know, to me, its amazing that you read through the indictment and his behavior in that indictment, and its nauseating. Its despicable behavior. Whether its criminal or not, someone who participated in that bullying about a process thats fundamental to our system and our government shouldnt be anywhere near the oval office. And for him to be attacking a prosecutor, who is investigating that, with all of the epithets and so forth, he has no basis for, as far as i can tell, you know, is ridiculous. Hes an aggressive prosecutor. Hes the kind of prosecutor, in my view, if he thinks someone has committed a crime, you know, he hones in on it and really goes to make that case. Theres no question hes aggressive. But i do not think that hes a partisan actor. Here to discuss all of this, we have jessica washington, cnn political analyst, john avlon, joe pinion and harry litman. Great to have you here tonight. Bill barr, it was fascinating to hear everything he said to Kaitlan Collins. She did an incredible interview tonight. Bill barr is a big believer in president ial power. Okay . He thinks that donald trump should be nowhere near the oval office again tonight. Your thoughts as you listened to what he said. Yeah. The fact that bill barr was one of his biggest defenders and now hes saying, i dont think, like you said, anywhere near the presidency. I think we should listen to that. Theres been other reports. I believe nbc spoke to, i think, dozens of folks within trumps cabinet who says, we do not think it was anonymous. We dont think this man should be president. I think that matters. The American Public should Pay Attention to that. Thoughts . You think . This is part of a pattern. His attorney, such a strong advocate, prodonald trump saying this man should be nowhere near the oval office because he will weaponize this against his enemies. Add that to all of the former Cabinet Members who are warning his supporters and the American People of the danger of a second donald trump term. And his hardcore supporters believe they know this man better than the people who worked with him daytoday, were warning. The people that know you best are warning about you the best, listen to them. Joe, what jumped out at you in this indictment . This 45page indictment . Theres behavior that i think was already outlined in the january 6th investigation, on capitol hill. So, for me, i dont think there was anything that was shocking or new. Theres some things in there that are shocking. If you look in the broader context of the conversation, many people have pointed out, theres no explicit quid pro quo. If you look at the charges brought relative to the actions taken by the president , its difficult, a high burden to prove that the president was knowingly making those statements. Theres many people who are better equipped than i am, attorneys that have worked at the Department Of Justice. I think we cant be picking and choosing. Its a difficult row to hoe. Before i have you respond to that, i want to play for you the defenses that Donald Trumps attorney on this network and others appears to be trying out. Okay . Heres a mashup of those. You have one of the leading constitutional scholars in the united states, john eastman, say to donald trump, this is a protocol you can follow, its legal. That eliminates criminal intent. Our focus is that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. And theres nothing thats more protected under the First Amendment than political speech. They want to go to trial so that, instead of debating the issues against joe biden, that President Trump is sitting in a courtroom. How is that justice . Okay. What i got from that, harry, he listened to his lawyers. This is a free speech issue. He can say whatever he wants. And this is to distract what the biden family problems. Speed round, huh . The last one wont come up in the courtroom. The last one is gibberish. Hes in charge with making agreements to do things unlawful. He uses words to do that. That doesnt make it a free speech issue. Hes trying to up end the political process. And lawyers theres six reasons it wont fly. The first one, they are coconspirators. You cannot rely on advice from someone who is conspiring with you to break the law. Wait a minute. They are his attorneys. Before they were his coconspirators, they were attorneys. Why cant he rely on advice from his attorneys . Because, if the advice is given in furtherance, of a crime, they need to come forward and say, i told him it was okay to have false electors. I told him its okay to obstruct. Not, i told him you can do your free speech. Its the actual charge they have to be able to go for. Quickly, joe. Were playing fast and loose. I listened to a disbarred attorney saying one of two men who have been Attorney General more than one is a hitman for the president. But also, at the same time, saying we should agree with it. Hes referring to Michael Cohen. Michael cohens point is that he feels that bill barr weaponized the Justice Department against him. He has that beef with him. He has his own animouse. Lets do that, joe. You said earlier, you know, theres all this conflicting evidence and we cant possibly know. One of the things the indictment you read the indictment, it lays out clearly a pattern of behavior that would suggest that donald trump was repeatedly confronted with the facts that he had lost the election by his closest aides. He was told again and again, the conspiracies he was spouting was not true and would go on ahead and spout them. Thats a fact pattern theyre going to rely upon. You need to take that into account when youre coming up with the, its impossible for us to know because they laid out a clear fact pattern. I never said it was impossible for us to know. Theres certainly many attorneys who have gone to prestigious institutions who have been apointed by republicans and democrats, who said unequivocally, this is a difficult case to prove. I dont know how somehow you want to put words in my mouth and say can i make one quick point . Quickly. Doesnt matter if he thinks this. Whether or not he believes it fairly, you cannot do false electors. You cant obstruct a proceeding. Jessica, one thing that was interesting to hear, mike pence, former Vice President mike pence spoke out. Hes been remarkably consistent since january 6th. Hes always said that the constitution did not allow him to do what was asked of him. Even after all of the pressure that was put on him. Here he is today. At the end of the day, history will hold donald trump accountable for his reckless words and actions on that day. The American People deserve to know that President Trump and his advisers didnt just ask me to pause. They asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election. Thats Even Stronger than some of the things he said in the past. He was asked to overturn the election. I agree. I think that. Its hard to argue that this behavior wasnt at least potentially illegal. The thing is its hard not to come out as political in these things. Were looking at, repeatedly, trump was told, this did not happen over and over again in that indictment. And mike pence is saying, i was told to do something that was uncons unconstitutional. That donald trump had the knowledge to know it was unconstitutional. And we can say that a few people that were listed as coconspirators in this indictment, said it wasnt unconstitutional. But he was told repeatedly over and over again we have every reason to believe he should have understood that. Were were not living on a should have kind of right. Were out of time. I want to say i understand why youre struggling with it, jessica. It hasnt been adjudicated. We saw it with our own eyes. We are all trying to do the verbal gymnastic. The former Vice President is telling us that he told him to overturn the election. Hell tell the jury that, too. Most republicans have come out and said, not only was trying to have a separate state of electors disaster, we would have had chaos and bedlam. I think the preponderance of republicans are saying that. I look forward to the measurement. I dont know how you figure a preponderance there. Which in congress are saying that . Theres plenty that said, if we had a separate state of electors going in there. If you said in the supreme court, what was the legal remedy for this, they could not come to conclusion. I think theres plenty of republicans who agree with same thing. Friends, thank you very much. A lot of republicans think that donald trump is getting a raw deal. And a lot of those are fox viewers. Geraldo riv

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