Transcripts For CNNW The 20240703 : vimarsana.com

Lets not. Thanks for being with us. The lead with jake tapper starts right now. Jim, come back any time. Good luck, jim. I will. Welcome to the lead. Im jake tapper. As the nation continues to head into an election where donald trump as of now seems likely to be the next republican president ial nominee, and according to pulse has a decent shot of beating President Biden in november of 2024, two pieces of news seem instructive. One you may have missed. From last friday. When mr. Trump took to his Social Media Platform and responded to a profile of outgoing joints Chief Of Staff mark milley in the Atlantic Magazine called the patriot. Describing the ways that milley tried to guide the nation through the chaotic and dangerous period surrounding trumps loss to Biden In November of 2020 including when learning that the Chinese Military believed that trump was going to order an attack against the chinese, in a phone call authorized by the then acting secretary of defense, General Milley saw to leigh assure the chinese that no acwas imminent. Trump called Milley Action An Act so egregious that in times gone by, the punishment would have been death, unquote. Death. That is right. Former president of the United States who well may be the next president of the United States, suggesting in no Uncertain Terms that americas highest ranking military official, a veteran of multiple combat tours in afghanistan and in iraq, deserves to be executed. A man whose followers have a troubling habit of flooding her perceived enemies with Death Threats. That happened. The second piece of news comes from the former top aide to mark meadows, trumps last white house Chief Of Staff, Cassidy Hutchinson. The star witness in last summers january 6 committee hearing. Her new book enough, published today. In the book, hutchinson paints a picture of the closing days of the Trump White House even more chaotic, even more lawless than described in her shocking testimony. For example, what was Mark Meadows Burning in the White House Office fireplace. What was her reply when meadows asked her whether she would take a bullet for donald trump . Hutchinson, as you might recall, was thrust into the National Spotlight with her bombshell televised testimony from the january 6 committee. But that moment, that moment, her testimony, that almost never happened. She had already spoken to the Comm Committee twice Behind Closed Doors and it was her third closeddoor deposition when she chose to come forward and testify fully and honestly and openly about what she really saw and heard in the west wing. Cassidy hutchinson was a top aide to mark meadows. Working a few steps abay from the oval office and watching as her bosss reel from the 2020 election loss and fought it with lies and wild schemes. I remember feeling scared an nervous for what could happen on january 6. At just 26 years old, hutchibson was a star witness in the january 6 special Committee Hearings in june 2022. Miss hutchinson was in a gs po to know a great deal about the happenings in the Trump White House. Her testimony was damning. President trump had been raging for weeks after the election. I first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there is a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. The valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry and had thrown his lunch against the wall. And then on january 6, 2021, she said she heard firsthand as the president brushed off concerns of protesters arriving with weapons. I overheard the president Say Something to the effect of, i dont fing care they have weapons. Theyre not here to hurt me. Take the megs away. And after fiery remarks on the ellipse. We fight like hell. And if you dont youre not gooding to have a country any more. And she said tony ornato told her privately what happened in the president ial suv. The president said something to the effect of, im the fing president , take me up to the capitol now. To which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at at the Steering Wheel and used his free hand to lunge toward bobby angle and when the story was recounted he month he issed toward his clavicles. In the hours to come, mark meadows struggled to get through to trump. I remember pat saying something to the effect of mark, we need to do something more. Theyre literally calling for the Vice President to be fing hung. And mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him pat, he thinks mike deserves it. He doesnt think theyre doing anythi anything wrong. She was disgusted with what she saw that day. It was unamerican. Were watching the Capitol Building get defaced over a lie. And she stayed with President Trump until the end of his term. The former president said he hardly knew her and turned down a request for him to go with his team to florida. Committee transcripts showed her speaking the truth to investigators and remaining loyal to trump. After changing her attorney they should investigators that her previous trump funded lawyer wanted her to diminisher role in the white house and tell the committee she did not recall certain events. With those lawyers, she felt like trump was looking over her shoulder. In the end she told her story publicly and put what happened Behind Closed Doors on record. Former President Trump is now vying for another term in the white house. Threatening to dismantle political norms and investigate his adversaries and secret ribusion for perceived slights. Cassidy hutchinson today is warning we should believe him. Here is part one of our interview. Cassidy, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. So a few years ago, donald trump, President Trump was a man you describe in your book as adoring. And now you are doing this book tour in which you tell the story from childhood to your courageous testimony and youre basically warning the world that he shouldnt be president ever again. A. , that is quite a journey, and b. , why shouldnt he be president ever again . Well i would like to start by saying that i came forward to testify because, one, that was what i was obligated to do. I swore an oath to protect and defend the United States and that was what i was paid to do and i had not been completely forthcoming with the committee charged with investigating the most grave attack on the United States in history. So i came forward not with goal or anything other than providing people with the truth. Ive seen how people are evading the truth and how people are not holding themselves accountable and it was my duty as an american, as it is every americans duty to hold themselves to the oath that they swear. Yeah. But right now the American People are going through another election or about to. And we donald trump is leading in the polls when it comes to the republican primaries. Even in some polls when it comes to a headtohead matchup with President Biden. The other day trump suggested that the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the outgoing chairman mark milley committed treason. He suggested that Capitol Punishment would be on the table or should be an owe the table. When you see a message like that, how seriously do you take it . I mean, milley has suggested to people according to the atlantic that he expected if donald trump is elected president again, that donald trump will go try try to go after him. When you see that, do you think he means it . Or do you think oh, that is just hot air . I do, jake. I think that weve seen firsthand. I do meaning he means it. I do believe that he means it. What i would like to say to this is i think for years we have not held donald trump accountable to the things he says and when he says those things and when he strokes those vit Reol Comments with people that have profound years defending our democracy like General Milley, we need to take him seriously. People have been holding him accountable for the past years but not accountable enough. Because were in a position right now where it is looking more likely than not that he could be the republican nominee. And he has also been indicted four times. It is sad that were in this place as a country where were looking at somebody who has executed this horrible assault on our democracy and we are continuing to give this person a platform. That is not what we should stand for as americans and i think that donald trump is the most grave threat that we will face face to our democracy in our lifetime and potentially in american history. When he said things like he wabs to use the Department Of Justice to go after his enemies and said things like he did on truth social the other day, that he wans to curtail Freedom Of The Press for certain channels and that sort of thing. You take him literally. You think he actually means it in a second term and he would do that . I think that Donald Trump In A Second Term does not have any would not have guardrails. I this we saw that at the end of the first term with how things played out after he lost the election. He violated our constitution in multiple ways. It is completely fine to wage or to File Lawsuits in the country or in the states. Sure. But what is not okay is when you threaten an assault the constitution and our institutions of government. I would not put it past donald trump, jake, to to put those institutions of government in a worse position than they were in during the first term. So, as you noted, hes now facing 91 Felony Charges and four different investigations for hes been indicted four times. Youve testified in front of the georgia grand jury. You were interviewed by investigators overseeing the january 6 investigation and an indictment and the classified documents case and an indictment, how do you feel about the charges hes facing . I know youre not a lawyer. But i know that you also read these documents. When you look at the evidence and then when you hear his excuses or his defense, i mean, do you think hes guilty . I want to hold off on providing my personal opinions on that and only because, you know, i and with the platform that i think we all should look towards and the platform that im trying to adopt in this era of my life is it is sometimes just as dangerous to speculate about what could be going on Behind Closed Doors at the justice department. Im confident in our system of government and i think that we have to leave it to the investigators to be able to collect the facts and that is why i came forward and testified truthfully to all of the investigations. I think that if he is convicted, then that is a conviction that we need to accept as americans and we need to trust our institutions of government. But i will say this, too, jake. I think these are the people that were running our government at end of the Trump Administration. The most loyal of loyal trump people. The most loyal of loyal trump people and who have already been indicted. Some people some of these individuals have also been indicted. We have to think what would a second trump term look like . Are these the people running the government, people facing indictments and who would work for Donald Trump In A Second Term. That is a question we should ask ourselves going into the election season. Lets talk about mark meadows who was cleave of staff and you were Chief Of Staff to the Chief Of Staff. You write in your book that in one of the first conversations you had with meadows in the white house, he said to you, cass, if i could get through this job and manage to keep him out of jail, meaning donald trump, i will have done a good job. A. , when he said that, did you think he meant that literally, and b. , do you think that your testimony might actually result in donald trump going to jail . In that moment, when mark said that to me, it was more of a wakeup call and a moment where i sort of felt frightened for the first time. But also concerned about mark. You know, when youre in this job and i think people it is difficult to put this into words especially if you dont have people who are willing to be forthcoming and honest about the positions that you occupy in government. But especially in the Trump Administration. And in 2020. Every day was a hair on fire day. We were swimming to stay afloat but most of us were drowning. So when mark said that, that day, i was alarmed becauses it one of the moments where i thought that i had a grasp on what was going on and i realized that i didnt. But i did take mark seriously in that moment and in my service to mark, i wanted to make sure that i did whatever i could to help mark achieve his goal. To keep trump out of jail . Correct. But that is something that i worked through in the book, it is not the staffs job to control a president who might end up in prison. I think that is the one of the more unfortunate things that we have gravitated to as a society. Where this is normal. Now, it is not normal but it is perceived as being normal now. What was well the other question was do you think that your testimony might ultimately result in donald trump going to prison . I came forward to testify with the information that i knew. And most of the information that i knew could be corroborated by other people. I hope that what i testified to would cause other people to come forward and testify truthfully. So you and meadows were close at one point, i know. An in the georgia case, as you noted, kind of you, alluded to, hes now facing criminal charges. He has pleaded not guilty. Lets show the mug shot of mark meadows. When you see that photo, and that is thats i mean in some ways for people who love mark meadows, or who loved him at one time, that is a tragic f photo. What goes there you your mind when you look at that picture . I see someone that didnt have to be in this position. You know, i i see that picture and i feel sorry for him in some ways. Because he had a lot of opportunities to do the right thing. And to come forward. Hes a man that has a family. And that is also another unfortunate impact of all of this. Is when youre in Donald Trumps circle and you have that loyalty to him, it impacts more of your life in more ways than one could imagine. And, you know, i hope that mark is doing the right thing if he hasnt already been doing the right as what i define the right right thing. You hope hes cooperating with investigators. I hope he would cooperate and uphold the oath that he swore because he knows more than i know about what happened through January Of 2021 period. It doesnt seem like hes cooperating with the georgia case, but we dont know if hes cooperating with federal investigators. That is an unanswered question. Looking at the Republican Party Going Forward and whether the Republican Party nominates trump. But i want to play this moment from the first republican primary debate. If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your partys choice. Please raise your hand if you would. [ cheering and applause ] that is the first debate. The second one is tomorrow. And basically the only candidates that said they would not support donald trump if he were a felon, a convicted felon, were Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie. Asa hutchinson does not make the debate stage so Chris Christie will be the only republican candidate on the debate stage tomorrow night would said he would not vote for donald trump if he were a convicted felon. And hes already really the only one who has been outspoken in his criticism of donald trump when it comes to january 6. What does that say to you about Donald Trumps hold on the Republican Party . Well, i wan to point out something that is really critical that you just said, jake, and that is if donald trump is tried and convicted, that wasnt asking if he brett bear does not ask if hes still going through the trial. If hes a convicted felon. And the counts that donald trump is facing, hes facing counts of obstructing the constitution. To me, that is disqualifying. Donald trump should be disqualified from being the president of the United States. To me that is not a question. When i watch that, and i watched that debate and i was hopeful about several of the candidates on that stage. I thought a lot of them have good forwardthinking and answers and i could see a light the aend of the tunnel. Who besides your fellow new jersey resident President Biden<\/a> in november of 2024, two pieces of news seem instructive. One you may have missed. From last friday. When mr. Trump took to his Social Media Platform<\/a> and responded to a profile of outgoing joints Chief Of Staff<\/a> mark milley in the Atlantic Magazine<\/a> called the patriot. Describing the ways that milley tried to guide the nation through the chaotic and dangerous period surrounding trumps loss to Biden In November<\/a> of 2020 including when learning that the Chinese Military<\/a> believed that trump was going to order an attack against the chinese, in a phone call authorized by the then acting secretary of defense, General Milley<\/a> saw to leigh assure the chinese that no acwas imminent. Trump called Milley Action An Act<\/a> so egregious that in times gone by, the punishment would have been death, unquote. Death. That is right. Former president of the United States<\/a> who well may be the next president of the United States<\/a>, suggesting in no Uncertain Terms<\/a> that americas highest ranking military official, a veteran of multiple combat tours in afghanistan and in iraq, deserves to be executed. A man whose followers have a troubling habit of flooding her perceived enemies with Death Threats<\/a>. That happened. The second piece of news comes from the former top aide to mark meadows, trumps last white house Chief Of Staff<\/a>, Cassidy Hutchinson<\/a>. The star witness in last summers january 6 committee hearing. Her new book enough, published today. In the book, hutchinson paints a picture of the closing days of the Trump White House<\/a> even more chaotic, even more lawless than described in her shocking testimony. For example, what was Mark Meadows Burning<\/a> in the White House Office<\/a> fireplace. What was her reply when meadows asked her whether she would take a bullet for donald trump . Hutchinson, as you might recall, was thrust into the National Spotlight<\/a> with her bombshell televised testimony from the january 6 committee. But that moment, that moment, her testimony, that almost never happened. She had already spoken to the Comm Committee<\/a> twice Behind Closed Doors<\/a> and it was her third closeddoor deposition when she chose to come forward and testify fully and honestly and openly about what she really saw and heard in the west wing. Cassidy hutchinson was a top aide to mark meadows. Working a few steps abay from the oval office and watching as her bosss reel from the 2020 election loss and fought it with lies and wild schemes. I remember feeling scared an nervous for what could happen on january 6. At just 26 years old, hutchibson was a star witness in the january 6 special Committee Hearings<\/a> in june 2022. Miss hutchinson was in a gs po to know a great deal about the happenings in the Trump White House<\/a>. Her testimony was damning. President trump had been raging for weeks after the election. I first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there is a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. The valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry and had thrown his lunch against the wall. And then on january 6, 2021, she said she heard firsthand as the president brushed off concerns of protesters arriving with weapons. I overheard the president Say Something<\/a> to the effect of, i dont fing care they have weapons. Theyre not here to hurt me. Take the megs away. And after fiery remarks on the ellipse. We fight like hell. And if you dont youre not gooding to have a country any more. And she said tony ornato told her privately what happened in the president ial suv. The president said something to the effect of, im the fing president , take me up to the capitol now. To which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at at the Steering Wheel<\/a> and used his free hand to lunge toward bobby angle and when the story was recounted he month he issed toward his clavicles. In the hours to come, mark meadows struggled to get through to trump. I remember pat saying something to the effect of mark, we need to do something more. Theyre literally calling for the Vice President<\/a> to be fing hung. And mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him pat, he thinks mike deserves it. He doesnt think theyre doing anythi anything wrong. She was disgusted with what she saw that day. It was unamerican. Were watching the Capitol Building<\/a> get defaced over a lie. And she stayed with President Trump<\/a> until the end of his term. The former president said he hardly knew her and turned down a request for him to go with his team to florida. Committee transcripts showed her speaking the truth to investigators and remaining loyal to trump. After changing her attorney they should investigators that her previous trump funded lawyer wanted her to diminisher role in the white house and tell the committee she did not recall certain events. With those lawyers, she felt like trump was looking over her shoulder. In the end she told her story publicly and put what happened Behind Closed Doors<\/a> on record. Former President Trump<\/a> is now vying for another term in the white house. Threatening to dismantle political norms and investigate his adversaries and secret ribusion for perceived slights. Cassidy hutchinson today is warning we should believe him. Here is part one of our interview. Cassidy, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. So a few years ago, donald trump, President Trump<\/a> was a man you describe in your book as adoring. And now you are doing this book tour in which you tell the story from childhood to your courageous testimony and youre basically warning the world that he shouldnt be president ever again. A. , that is quite a journey, and b. , why shouldnt he be president ever again . Well i would like to start by saying that i came forward to testify because, one, that was what i was obligated to do. I swore an oath to protect and defend the United States<\/a> and that was what i was paid to do and i had not been completely forthcoming with the committee charged with investigating the most grave attack on the United States<\/a> in history. So i came forward not with goal or anything other than providing people with the truth. Ive seen how people are evading the truth and how people are not holding themselves accountable and it was my duty as an american, as it is every americans duty to hold themselves to the oath that they swear. Yeah. But right now the American People<\/a> are going through another election or about to. And we donald trump is leading in the polls when it comes to the republican primaries. Even in some polls when it comes to a headtohead matchup with President Biden<\/a>. The other day trump suggested that the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the outgoing chairman mark milley committed treason. He suggested that Capitol Punishment<\/a> would be on the table or should be an owe the table. When you see a message like that, how seriously do you take it . I mean, milley has suggested to people according to the atlantic that he expected if donald trump is elected president again, that donald trump will go try try to go after him. When you see that, do you think he means it . Or do you think oh, that is just hot air . I do, jake. I think that weve seen firsthand. I do meaning he means it. I do believe that he means it. What i would like to say to this is i think for years we have not held donald trump accountable to the things he says and when he says those things and when he strokes those vit Reol Comments<\/a> with people that have profound years defending our democracy like General Milley<\/a>, we need to take him seriously. People have been holding him accountable for the past years but not accountable enough. Because were in a position right now where it is looking more likely than not that he could be the republican nominee. And he has also been indicted four times. It is sad that were in this place as a country where were looking at somebody who has executed this horrible assault on our democracy and we are continuing to give this person a platform. That is not what we should stand for as americans and i think that donald trump is the most grave threat that we will face face to our democracy in our lifetime and potentially in american history. When he said things like he wabs to use the Department Of Justice<\/a> to go after his enemies and said things like he did on truth social the other day, that he wans to curtail Freedom Of The Press<\/a> for certain channels and that sort of thing. You take him literally. You think he actually means it in a second term and he would do that . I think that Donald Trump In A Second Term<\/a> does not have any would not have guardrails. I this we saw that at the end of the first term with how things played out after he lost the election. He violated our constitution in multiple ways. It is completely fine to wage or to File Lawsuits<\/a> in the country or in the states. Sure. But what is not okay is when you threaten an assault the constitution and our institutions of government. I would not put it past donald trump, jake, to to put those institutions of government in a worse position than they were in during the first term. So, as you noted, hes now facing 91 Felony Charges<\/a> and four different investigations for hes been indicted four times. Youve testified in front of the georgia grand jury. You were interviewed by investigators overseeing the january 6 investigation and an indictment and the classified documents case and an indictment, how do you feel about the charges hes facing . I know youre not a lawyer. But i know that you also read these documents. When you look at the evidence and then when you hear his excuses or his defense, i mean, do you think hes guilty . I want to hold off on providing my personal opinions on that and only because, you know, i and with the platform that i think we all should look towards and the platform that im trying to adopt in this era of my life is it is sometimes just as dangerous to speculate about what could be going on Behind Closed Doors<\/a> at the justice department. Im confident in our system of government and i think that we have to leave it to the investigators to be able to collect the facts and that is why i came forward and testified truthfully to all of the investigations. I think that if he is convicted, then that is a conviction that we need to accept as americans and we need to trust our institutions of government. But i will say this, too, jake. I think these are the people that were running our government at end of the Trump Administration<\/a>. The most loyal of loyal trump people. The most loyal of loyal trump people and who have already been indicted. Some people some of these individuals have also been indicted. We have to think what would a second trump term look like . Are these the people running the government, people facing indictments and who would work for Donald Trump In A Second Term<\/a>. That is a question we should ask ourselves going into the election season. Lets talk about mark meadows who was cleave of staff and you were Chief Of Staff<\/a> to the Chief Of Staff<\/a>. You write in your book that in one of the first conversations you had with meadows in the white house, he said to you, cass, if i could get through this job and manage to keep him out of jail, meaning donald trump, i will have done a good job. A. , when he said that, did you think he meant that literally, and b. , do you think that your testimony might actually result in donald trump going to jail . In that moment, when mark said that to me, it was more of a wakeup call and a moment where i sort of felt frightened for the first time. But also concerned about mark. You know, when youre in this job and i think people it is difficult to put this into words especially if you dont have people who are willing to be forthcoming and honest about the positions that you occupy in government. But especially in the Trump Administration<\/a>. And in 2020. Every day was a hair on fire day. We were swimming to stay afloat but most of us were drowning. So when mark said that, that day, i was alarmed becauses it one of the moments where i thought that i had a grasp on what was going on and i realized that i didnt. But i did take mark seriously in that moment and in my service to mark, i wanted to make sure that i did whatever i could to help mark achieve his goal. To keep trump out of jail . Correct. But that is something that i worked through in the book, it is not the staffs job to control a president who might end up in prison. I think that is the one of the more unfortunate things that we have gravitated to as a society. Where this is normal. Now, it is not normal but it is perceived as being normal now. What was well the other question was do you think that your testimony might ultimately result in donald trump going to prison . I came forward to testify with the information that i knew. And most of the information that i knew could be corroborated by other people. I hope that what i testified to would cause other people to come forward and testify truthfully. So you and meadows were close at one point, i know. An in the georgia case, as you noted, kind of you, alluded to, hes now facing criminal charges. He has pleaded not guilty. Lets show the mug shot of mark meadows. When you see that photo, and that is thats i mean in some ways for people who love mark meadows, or who loved him at one time, that is a tragic f photo. What goes there you your mind when you look at that picture . I see someone that didnt have to be in this position. You know, i i see that picture and i feel sorry for him in some ways. Because he had a lot of opportunities to do the right thing. And to come forward. Hes a man that has a family. And that is also another unfortunate impact of all of this. Is when youre in Donald Trumps<\/a> circle and you have that loyalty to him, it impacts more of your life in more ways than one could imagine. And, you know, i hope that mark is doing the right thing if he hasnt already been doing the right as what i define the right right thing. You hope hes cooperating with investigators. I hope he would cooperate and uphold the oath that he swore because he knows more than i know about what happened through January Of 2021<\/a> period. It doesnt seem like hes cooperating with the georgia case, but we dont know if hes cooperating with federal investigators. That is an unanswered question. Looking at the Republican Party<\/a> Going Forward<\/a> and whether the Republican Party<\/a> nominates trump. But i want to play this moment from the first republican primary debate. If former President Trump<\/a> is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your partys choice. Please raise your hand if you would. [ cheering and applause ] that is the first debate. The second one is tomorrow. And basically the only candidates that said they would not support donald trump if he were a felon, a convicted felon, were Asa Hutchinson<\/a> and Chris Christie<\/a>. Asa hutchinson does not make the debate stage so Chris Christie<\/a> will be the only republican candidate on the debate stage tomorrow night would said he would not vote for donald trump if he were a convicted felon. And hes already really the only one who has been outspoken in his criticism of donald trump when it comes to january 6. What does that say to you about Donald Trumps<\/a> hold on the Republican Party<\/a> . Well, i wan to point out something that is really critical that you just said, jake, and that is if donald trump is tried and convicted, that wasnt asking if he brett bear does not ask if hes still going through the trial. If hes a convicted felon. And the counts that donald trump is facing, hes facing counts of obstructing the constitution. To me, that is disqualifying. Donald trump should be disqualified from being the president of the United States<\/a>. To me that is not a question. When i watch that, and i watched that debate and i was hopeful about several of the candidates on that stage. I thought a lot of them have good forwardthinking and answers and i could see a light the aend of the tunnel. Who besides your fellow new jersey resident Chris Christie<\/a> . I had a lot of hope with nikki haley. I thought that she had very intelligent and well flushed out answers on things. Even mike pence, i was really disappointed when i saw mike pence raise his hand. And jake, i think donald trump has such a grip on these people. And sometimes i cant quite put my finger on why. Why is it so easy for people to go along with this and easy for these people to say what hes doing okay. Theyre conceding that they are okay with waging a war on our constitution. That is not a republican value. That is not a an american value. Those are the types of candidates that were looking at for 2024, though. I will ask about Kevin Mccarthy<\/a>. You at one point were close to imhad. In the book you call him kevin. He wasnt the speaker but he was the House Minority<\/a> leader for the republicans. But near the end of the book you write about being disillusioned with mccarthy. You you say i started to sense a significant shift in kevin. What is the shift . What happened to mccarthy in your view . I think that kevin had an opportunity after january 6, as did mitch mcconnell, as did all of the elected officials in congress that are republicans, to denounce what happened on january 6 and work against trump still having a strong hold on the Republican Party<\/a>. Kevin was fairly out spoken in the days after january 6 about how it was wrong. But then after the former president left office, mccarthy went down to maralago and to me that was sort of the beginning of that transformation where we kind of were able to seeing no is going to change. You know, i still have a lot of respect for kevin. I hope for the best for him as the speaker. Especially as we see the chaos that is happening on capitol hill right now. But i im not confident that hes a good leader for the Republican Party<\/a>, because he is a talking head for donald trump. Kevin hasnt taken a strong stand against it and im confident that kevin knows all of this is wrong. You know, a few days after the election, mccarthy and you were in the white house and im sure you didnt see everything, but just a few days after the election. Thankfully. He went on, Kevin Mccarthy<\/a> went on fox and said donald trump won in a landslide. But the day the day of january 6, he also he he voted to disenfranchise pennsylvania and arizona. I was part of the big lie along with everybody else. No, youre not wrong on that, jake. But i think even if we look at the senator, with senator mitch mcconnell, they brought an Impeachment Trial<\/a> against the former president. If senator mcconnell had wanted to get the ten votes, we would not be facing this issue right now. He could have likely whipped ten votes in the senate to make sure that donald trump could never be president again. And this is just the plague that is that has unfortunately filtered there youout the entire Republican Party<\/a>. And im not confident that the Republican Party<\/a> is going to continue to exist, at least the Republican Party<\/a> that i have known in the Republican Party<\/a> that i have originally came to be a part of it. So lets talk about january 6. Because one of things that you brought to everyones attention and your testimony was how much trump wanted to go to the capitol on january 6 demanded to go the capitol on january 6 and i think one of the Big Questions<\/a> that i have is why . What did he want to do to the capitol . You know, i cant speculate. I heard several things you can speculate. You have more information you know these people but that wouldnt be responsible. Because definitively, i dont know what he wanted that day. But what i would know is that there was a reason he wanted to go to the capitol and be with his supporters. And donald trump also knows that the imimpact that his words have and the impact that his presence has on his supporters. He knows that he himself riles people up. And he knew that the crowd was armed that day. He knew that there were people angry about this. And so knowing donald trump, knowing what i knew inside of the white house, that was not a mistake. Did he not want to just go to the capitol to go there and make a little speech and then go back to the white house. There was a reason that he wanted to go there and i would like to restate that donald trump knows the impact of his words. So when he on january 6, when he wanted to go to the capitol, everything that that was intentional. The mark milley tweet that you mentioned from this past weekend, he knows the impact that those words will have. He knows that people will come out and be violent against these people and that is what he wants. Yeah. I mean, there will be if there are not already Death Threats<\/a> against milley. Oh, absolutely. During the Capitol Attack<\/a> you heard meadows say that then President Trump<\/a> didnt want to do anything to stop it. We heard the chants, hang mike pence, hang mike pence. And what did meadows say about hang mike pence. What did you over hear . This is what the former white House Counsel<\/a> came into our office and pat had said that pat had said that they needed to go down to the oval dining room where the president was. The rioters had gotten into the capitol. And mark had relayed it to Pat Cipollone<\/a> to the effect of you heard him, pat, he doesnt want to do anything. He doesnt want to do anything. He doesnt want to do anything. Despite what Cassidy Hutchinson<\/a> witnessed on january 6, she continued to show up to work. The very next day. Our conversation will pick up there right after this quick break. And were back with our policy lead. Cassidy hutchinson telling me why she found it so difficult to break away from trump world and what she feared would happen if she had not. So, on the morning of january 7th, you still went to work . I did. And this is one of the things that i think that some of your critics on left, or never trumpers who are republicans, say you see your friend alyssa griffin, going on tv and shes denouncing january 6 and Stephanie Gresham<\/a> and Secretary Devos<\/a> and others resigned that day. Secretary mnuchin was considering invoking the 25th amendment. And tell me why you want back. Because obviously you feel passionately about this and been very brave in your testimony. But you still on january 7th went back to work . I did. And i wish i had a glossy and short cookiecutter answer for you, jake. But something that i still struggle with to this day, but i will say, i would like to also reference what alyssa did on that day. Alyssa farrah griffin. I remember sitting in the office and i was very outspoken on january 6 and every day after that i strongly disagreed with what internally. Correct. But when i saw alyssa on tv, that was this moment where i sort of felt that split because on one hand i was very upset with her. She was one of my closest friends and i was upset with her for a variety of reasons. But the one that i think is most potent for this conversation is i fell that what she did that day was disloyal and saying that now with the hindsight sounds ludicrous. It is an honest answer and i appreciate that. And i think that is the important part of this transformation period for me. Because on the other hand when i saw her there, there was a little bit of envy. I was proud of her for doing what she felt that she had to be doing. And for using her voice. And i give alyssa a lot of credit. I i eventually came to her side and she was the one that welcomed me. Shes wat first person that welcomed me and helped me get to this point. But i say all of this, jake, because i did struggle with what i should do. Had committed to moving to florida with the former president and it is that pushpull. On one hand i felt that january 6 happened because we, the staff, didnt do enough to stop it. That we, the staff, should have not let people around him that would have stroked the desire for him to over turn the election on january 6. You say in the book that you felt complicit. Correct. Yes. But then there is the other side of me where i was afraid to look disloyal or split from the world because once youre in that environment, and have the access and have the insight and knowledge that you do, you sort of feel like there is a target on your back. So i did not move to florida with him but i stayed on payroll for several months after the end of the administration. And i still had that the moral dilemma inside of me. So its a pushpull and one pull is doing the right thing. Correct. And then the other pull is loyalty and fear . Correct. Is that right . That is fairly accurate. I would like to say, though, i before i was subpoenaed by the january 6 committee, i did work to slowly start to separate. I wanted to start a new chapter in my career. Because i disagreed with not only what happened on january 6, but i saw the trajectory of republican politics and i didnt want to be a direct part of that. It was difficult, again. And im not trying to make excuses. I dont have a heroes complex. I know a lot of what i did was wrong. But i got to where i am today. But it was an important year for me because i was able to look back and reflect on things that, one, that i was complicit in. But also understand the dangers of what we were doing at the white house. So there have a couple of things in the book that i want to ask you quick questions about. You write about Mark Meadows Burning<\/a> documents in the fireplace in the Chief Of Staff<\/a>s office. Now hes said this was not about documents. They were just using newspaper to get the fire going. I want to give you an opportunity to respond. What do you think he was actually burning there . Was it newspaper . I cant speak to what exactly he was burning. But im confident that it wasnt just newspaper. Do you think he was burning documents . You suggest in the book that what he was doing could have been a violation of the president ial records act. It could have been, yes. You write about being in a trump rally in georgia and trump asks meadows to meet with Hunter Bidens<\/a> old Business Partner<\/a> tony bubbly. You said the feeling was real. Why was why was the white house Chief Of Staff<\/a> meeting with tony bubble espy. Youre asking me the same question ive asked since that night. That is so random. Because weve opinion in public with tony at the nashville debrises. So the fact that trump and his associates were in contact. They were meeting secretly. When mark got off the plane it was the Campaign Official<\/a> that asked if they needed to convene a private meeting away from everybodys prying eyes. I dont have the answer to that. I didnt ask mark. But mark, after we left, i wasnt in i couldnt over hear what they were talking about. I walked away with mark. And mark said something to me reaffirming my loyalty to him and it just left this unsettled feeling in me in that moment, that, you know, there were things going on that were beyond my purview and that i wasnt sure what we were doing. But i knew that it wasnt right. Another example of this category of things behind your purview that felt wrong to you, meadows takes what you believe is a classified binder, Cross Fire Hurricane<\/a> which is the trump russia investigation, and i he takes it to the Party Leaders<\/a> that tow the Maga Party Line<\/a> and cipollony tells you there is classified information to get it back and you get it back. Meadows i dont personally get back. But it gets brought back. Not in binders by the way. It was unbound. Okay. But meadows said, no everything he gave had been classified by trump. Well i will say there is a reason the domes were brought back and that is a very devious response in my money because, one, we got the documents back for a reason and two, those documents still have not been fully de classified by justice department. That is a potential law violation. Correct. And that is also it goes to show how there is a mentality in the Trump Administration<\/a> of being frivolous with some of our with some of our countrys most Sensitive National<\/a> security secrets. And do we really want people like that back in power . One of the other things that you overhear trump saying is when the Supreme Court<\/a> refused to hear that case from texas, that wild case from texas that has all of the lies and things from ken paxton, the attorney general of texas. And trump is livid. And he starts yelling at meadows. We should have made more calls and we should have done this and that and i dont know exactly what would have been done. It is Supreme Court<\/a>. But then said trump, he dont want people to know we lost. It is embarrassing. I mean, that is potentially of significance legally if he knows that he lost. Correct. But, that is and i elaborate this in my testimony where i cant climb inside of the former president s mind and know exactly what he was thinking but it is not just me that has come forward with information like that. General milley has also said that he was in the former president s presence when he admitted that he lost Alyssa Farrah<\/a> griffin as well. I cant speculate about his actual mindset and his motivations but in that moment it was clear to me that there was some concession. And i would like to point out that the president Directed Mark<\/a> to begin declassifying the Cross Fire Hurricane<\/a> documents before january 6 happened. Because he was worried that those documents would never get declassified under a biden administration. So, you know, there is there was a mentality in that era of just chaos to be frank. And it is happening in the west wing of the white house. Yeah. You know, it wasnt lost on people that joe biden had won the election. And that he had won the election and it was a free and fair election. But yet, january 6 still happened. One of the things that i wonder, because you talk about this, this journey and i dont want to belittle it but it does sound like leaving a cult. It does. Because it is difficult for you to leave. Youre talking about loyalty and youre talking about fear of what happens to you if you leave. And youre also talking about doing the right thing. And again, im not trying to belittle it but it does sound like when people talk about leaving a cult, it does sound like that. But then there is also this Inflection Point<\/a> where youre told youre not coming down to florida to join to join the president s staff at maralago. That was insufficiently loyal. Because you were insufficiently loyal. They thought you were leaking some stuff but maybe you would have helped them avoid the classified documents scandal. I did my best if everything that i was asked, jake. So, but one of the things that i wonder, do you ever think that if they had let you go down to maralago, what would have happened . Like, would you have would you have testified . You would have been subpoenas. But would history have turned out differently. Would the pushpull still have gone on if you were still in maralago. What is that alternative history . I guess my short answer is i dont know because that is not what played out. That is not what happened. You did the right thing. But i will say this i want to belittle it. Fno, youre not belittling. I have not been in a cult. I mean, we could sit here and debate whether Maga Movement<\/a> is a cult. No, i dont think it is. But the way you describe it is. It sounds like it. Correct. But what i will say on that is i i would hope that i would have come forward to do the right thing still. But when youre in that environment, it becomes a lot more difficult. And i did get brought back into that environment and for a short period of time when i first began doing my depositions with the committee. But i didnt feel empowered to comply completely. And also, jake, if im being completely candid and frank, you know, i still felt that loyalty to him at the end of the administration. Yeah. And i i worry that if i had gone down to florida, that would have only grown. And i would not have come forward. And whether or not my what i testified to changes the trajectory of any investigation, i fulfilled what i was obligated to do under the oath that i swore to protect and defend the constitution and the country. And i fulfilled the obligations of my subpoena. So to me this is not about what i did and the impact that it has. For me it is more about i was able to maintain my character and integrity after i retained new Legal Counsel<\/a> who empowered me and showed me the importance of telling the whole truth. So anybody in a situation like that, i would encourage them to listen to your conscience and this is this moment is much bigger than us. So i guess the big question then is this what you did was the right thing, no question. But it was also, i think it is fair to say, more difficult, right . And there are probably other trump people who want to do the right thing. But they have their own trump world lawyers, like you had. Telling them to say i dont recall, i dont recall, i dont recalline though they could recall. And theyre stuck. Why would they do the right thing . Do you regret doing the right thing ever . No. No. Why not . I mean im glad you did the right thing. Dont get me wrong. You dont have to. Look, im not asking for anybody to no, it is important to acfoj tha to acknowledge that you did the right thing but it is not the easier thing. That is correct. But as i was writing the book with my collaborator, mark salter who worked with for decades and mark and i had this conversation a lot, too, though, about what it actually meant to break from trump world and mark and i have a lot of Phone Conversations<\/a> about this mentality that i still had to break. I didnt write this book with the intention of trying to convince people that i did the right thing. I wrote this book with intention to show my journey and i dont love the word journey. It sounds like the bachelor. But the journey that i had of being a trump world insider. Im not a democrat. I still consider myself a republican. But i dont consider myself part of what the Republican Party<\/a> largely identifies with today. Which is the trump Republican Party<\/a> in my opinion. Um, but in this period for me, i have never once doubted my decision to come forward and be truthful and be honest. And i had a conversation with a member of congress who is a republican member of congress that did not serve on the january 6 committee. This is the person with the pseudonym in your book. Yes. Sam. Sam, right. Now ive been very open with sam throughout this period. About how i was struggling. And we were on the phone one night and sam told me, go look in the mirror and ill stay on the phone and go look in the mirror. And this is before you made your decision. Before i started yes. And im looking in the mirror and im on the phone with sam and he said to me, do you like what youre looking at . Youre the only person that has to live with yourself for the rest of your life. Nobody else has. Do you like what youre looking at . I dont mean your appearance, cassidy, i mean do you like the person that you are . And i hadnt liked who i was. For a while. And i knew in that moment that i had to correct course for myself and come back to the person that i wanted to be. And person that i thought i saw myself becoming when i entered public service. The book is enough, and the author of Cassidy Hutchinson<\/a>. Thanks so much for talking to us. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. So many to discussion. The panel is here and ill get their reaction and we have kinzinger and farrah and griffin and gangel. Well squeeze in a quick break. Well be right back. Sticking with our Politics Lead<\/a> is Donald Trumps<\/a> former white house aide Cassidy Hutchinson<\/a> tells me donald trump, quote, donald trump is the most grave threat we will face in our democracy. Our panel is here. I want to begin by getting everyone, a short big takeaway. What did you think. I think herself her look at herself and her honestly, that was my biggest takeaway. What did you think. I would say same, because there is so many juicy nuggets in this book but she shares something that we havent seen in the men that served in the white house, many on the capitol hill was selfreflection and this waking up to say what is my role in history. What am i doing when something needs to be done and you see that in a way that is so missing in our politics. That is right. Shes taken more responsibility for january 6. Shes bearing the weight. Than any of the defendants, what do you think . And tieing to that, i mean, the difference in how she speaks now and how she spoke out with the january 6 committee and who is paying her legal fees i was thinking because that is something that were talking about now with the trump investigations and you pressed her on this, if your critics say your credibility, given what you wanted to do and what youre doing now and such a difference it makes in the fact that it was a trump paid trump pac paid attorney and now when she had her own attorney she felt she could come forward and speak freely about what she really saw and witnessed. Two things that may have an impact on the legal case. One is that she heard him say the words that you knew he lost. And he was embarrassed. That is very credible. The second is, jake, when she talked about when you asked her about why he went up to the capitol and she talked about the fact that he knows the impact his words are going to have on his followers and she said i think this is almost a direct quote, that he knew people would be violent and that is what he wants. She made a reference towards the end and i mentioned this in the digital piece i did about the book, but alyssa, there is a section of the book, she called it back channeling. Between her second interview ind closed doors and her third inte interview Behind Closed Doors<\/a> she still has to watch what she said. She goes and had a glass of wine or two at your with a way for the truth to come out. Tell what you say that is. Because she alludes to it. She came to me after her first two testimonies and said theres more i need to say. We got together and talked about different sncenarios. It was damning. Whether its the burning of documents. Thinking the former president thinking mike pence should be hung. Things are incredibly important for history. What i came up with, what if i can take this information to congresswoman liz cheney and see if theshe can call you back. Luckily, she found fabulous attorneys who represented her pro bono. 25 years old at the time. Not somebody who comes from money. Not somebody who had some high paying job. Could barely make ends meet and still did the right thing. Congressman, she does this interview still being represented by this trump paid attorney whos telling her just say i dont recall and all of a sudden, liz cheney knows all this stuff and is asking her about it because of this back channelling. I called adam, too. And hes like how does she know all this stuff . Somebody must be talking. Thank god you guys didnt anchor on me for that one. Liz did way better. Its brilliant. Its a brilliant way to do it. I dont want to overestimate, under estimate, whichever the right estimate is, the cost of a lawyer. Especially when youre barely making ends meet and the lawyer without telling you tells you look, heres what we need you to do and this is all free. You dont have to worry and there are going to be many people, i wish they had the courage, to speak out like she did, that will talk about the fact that you know, i had to say no comment or i cant remember because i just couldnt afford a lawyer. Lawyers around here are really expensive. He underlines he never told her to perjure herself and she says he never told me to purger myself but its also said that she says he said i dont recall is not perjury and it seems as though he was not trying to get her to cooperate. Theres so much she knew. And the pattern. Look whats happening right now in the classified documents case in florida. Does that not have complete echoes with tavares . And it all came down to he didnt have the money to pay for an attorney. So were seeing this play out. The impact of this is so important because its what she said and testified. She was easily the star witness. That could have potentially never happened had that relationship continued. Had she not come forward talking about the carelessness with which they treated classified documents which we now know about. That it was distressing to the white House Counsel<\/a>s office in the trump world of how meadows was handling classified documents. We didnt get into it in the interview, but obviously the story she told that was here say in the, in her testimony, which was ornato and bobby engel, former Secret Service<\/a> guys telling her the story about trump lunging. They deny it. They say they dont recall. They say they dont recall. She says she wasnt there. They told her this story. I personally dont doubt that they told her the story. Maybe they were you know, just bsing with her, i dont know. Whats interesting is one assuming that they have testified before jack smith, the special counsel. We dont know for sure. But jack smith is investigating and has indicted the president On January 6th<\/a> charges. And one assumes they have been forced to say one way or another under oath. There are a couple of things wherever there have been discrepancies if you look closely at what people have said, theres a lot of i dont recall. Or thats not my recollection. I think its important to also remember that she testified under oath to the committee and she has no reason not to tell the truth. With everything shes been through, why would she make something up. The trump people, after she testified, after anybody testified willingly, they tried to assassinate her character. Remember after the story about the limo, they went after her and said this is a complete lie. Shes lying. H shes a liar. She lies. She wasnt intimidated and that is to say way more as you alluded, 90 of the men in the Trump Administration<\/a>. What was the significance do you think of her testimony . It was beyond critical. And by the way, before the live testimony, she was cooperating both with the january 6th committee then ultimately doj. I think she played a fundamental role in the indictment of the former president. But also 13 Million People<\/a> watched her testify live. That was before the midterms. I think there was an impact there in how people received the Republican Party<\/a>. I think it had an impact with voters who did not know who was happening in the final days of the election. I think she also probably forced other people to come forward and tell the truth. We kind of had a slew of people willing to come forward after that. Both because she has made comments around them, like okay, ill tell the truth. And secondarily, there are a lot of people who felt shame. Yeah, a 25, 26yearold woman with no wealth to hear name. We have more to discuss, plus, how cassidy hutchisons testimony and even her book might play in a court of law. Thats next. Leading this hour, cassidy hutchison, essentially Chief Of Staff<\/a> to Chief Of Staff<\/a> mark","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia601409.us.archive.org\/9\/items\/CNNW_20230926_200000_The_Lead_With_Jake_Tapper\/CNNW_20230926_200000_The_Lead_With_Jake_Tapper.thumbs\/CNNW_20230926_200000_The_Lead_With_Jake_Tapper_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240703T12:35:10+00:00"}