This is gps, the Global Public square. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. Im Fareed Zakaria coming to you live from new york. Today on the program, the Israeli Security cabinet has just officially declared a state of war. After yesterday mornings stunning Surprise Attack by hamas. More than 500 israelis have died in the assault with thousands wounded. The death toll on the palestinian side has surpassed 300 as Isreal Retaliates against gaza. The idf said its goal is to control all of the gaza strip and kill all of the terrorists in our territory, unquote. Ill talk to former Israeli Foreign minister zippy liveny and mustafa and Naftali Bennett about what has happened so far and what comes next. Also, tom freedman, one time jerusalem times bureau chief will help us look at the big picture of todays middle east. Lets go straight so Cnn International diplomatic editor Nic Robertson who is on Theize Raely Side of the border with gaza near the Northeast Corner of the gaza strip. Hes in the town of sderot where the Police Station was liberated by by Israeli Forces in recent hours after having been taken over by hamas militants. Nic, Prime Minister netanyahu promised a mighty vengeance. Are you seeing that on the ground as they begin retaliation . Reporter i think were beginning to see the precursor of what it will take to begin to put in place the plans for a mighty vengeance. Getting control of the area that hamas militants took control of yesterday, this town, sderot, you see the Police Station are heavily damaged, there was an outbreak of gunfire around the corner a few minutes ago. There were intercepted of more rockets over our head out of israel. So securing the area around gaza, where there is still a high intensity operation to confront militants that left gaza yesterday, or today an have gone into israel territory, that has to be part of an important precursor, because you condition fully deploy battlefield troops, lots of tanks, lots of artillery, lots of Armored Personnel Carriers an bring in reservists for the type of response that Prime Minister netanyahu is talking about. And at the moment, we have seen a limited number of tanks, main battle tanks into the area along with a few howitzers, but that is not going to make amill incursion. The political decisions are being made. The military has taken control of of this territory which will open up for the big deployment that we expect if there is a ground incursion, fareed. The difference this time is that hamas has taken many hostages. And presumably theyre going to place those hostages strategically in places that israel might strike. Hamas headquarters and things like that. Has israel factors in this problem, which is that there wil will be risking the lives of Israeli Citizens if they were to strike any and all hamas targets. How are they thinking about this problem . Reporter yeah, about an hour or so ago, i interviewed a major in Israeli Defense forces communication department, one of the principal spokesperson, an i said what are you going to do, because he was telling us about the situation here. Were standing here and he said literally off these streets here people were rounded up by hamas and taken just a few miles across border into gaza. I said what are you going to do about this the hostages . And he like the other spokesperson wouldnt say how many there are, but he said what i could tell you is that we are not going to leave anyone behind. That is a very strong statement. It is elderly women, young women, children, men, Service Personnel taken. That is a very strong statement and undoubtedly everyone will calculate that hamas will use these hostages as Pressure Points on Prime Minister netanyahu. Theyre very likely make videos, theyll be the potential for more executions an the potential for threatening executions and the potential for real executions. All of which hamas will use strategically and carefully to maximize over time its pressure on the decisionmaking of the Israeli Government, a principally not not to stop the Israeli Defense forces being able to have a big incursion into gaza. I think that is what everyone is expecting. How it unfolds preceisely isnt clear. Israeli has been caught on the back foot in intelligence and hamas has a certain amount of initiative. Theyre going to see that, some of this, in the coming days. That is what were likely to see. Ni cia, for last few months, since Bibi Netanyahus government formed, we were all spending a lot of time talking about the constitutional reforms, the role of the court and such. What was going on with regard to israelipalestinian relations. What is the backdrop here . Reporter theyve been deteriorating. Theyve been deteriorating in part because there is a recognition on the palestinian side that there is a very strong nationalist, very right of center, very security driven israeli leadership. The leadership was focused principally on what was happening in the west bank, weve seen incursions into jeannine, to go after gunman there. That is bought the Israeli Defense sources a certain amount of success in those operations. Theyve captured and neutralized the personnel that they wanted to there. But at same time, a certain blind eye seemed to be turned on gaza. The fak that hamas wasnt supporting the militants in the west bank, was sort of taken that they dont want to confront israel at this time. Where what is emerging is that hamas was very clearly plotting and planning this massive significant groundbreaking operation and then internally Prime Minister netanyahu and his government have faced huge internal dissent from the changes that he wanted to make to the judiciary for example. That has brought hundreds of thousands of israelis out on the streets. So hes fought these political distractions. The pressure internationally not to have high palestinian casual in the west barnk, but it is making a deal involving the United States and saudi arabia to normalize relations. That is been for him his golden prize if you will. And it does seem if it has caused him, doesnt explain his Intelligence Services, but drops of the ball here, but it does appear to have caused him to divert some of his attention in this pressure situation. Nic, thank you as always. Next on gps, israel Foreign Minister zippy liveny when we come back. Yesterdays attacks on israel came 50 years plus one day after another set of Surprise Attacks. The ones that began the 1973 Yom Kippur War. We continue our coverage with tzipi livni, israels Foreign Minister and Justice Minister. She joins me from tel aviv. Welcome. Let me ask you to begin with the magnitude of this intelligence and security failure, because we are comparing it often to the Yom Kippur War but in some ways it strikes me as even greater. It was a war that was a failure to see what was happening in foreign capitols. This is gaza, this is a place that Israel Occupied for decades and a place that israel still has a tight blockade on, security controls on. What do you think happened . How was the idea of taken so much by surprise . Well it took us by surprise unfortunately but here there is time, there will be time for inquiries the day after. But i want to make another difference between the situation now and the Yom Kippur War. Because were speaking about a war and about hamas didnt wage war. In war you have some limitations, and rules and laws, what hamas did was massacre. In a dreadful manner against civilians, children, women, families. So when we are speaking about war between the state, the country and a Terrorist Organization, it is not just, you know, something really technical. This is what we are facing. That they are acing against civilians in a very cruel manner and this is what is happening in israel for the last two days. Do you think that the taking of the hostages will change the idea of calculation about how it could retaliate . Well, it is clear that this is an issue that very sensitive to everyone. We have also been told in the past and im sure that hamas has decided to do so. To get some initial immunity from israel retaliation, but this is the decisions that the Israeli Cabinet need to make. But i think that something important needs to be explains because people tend to take this as part of the israelpalest israelpalestinian conflict and it is not. The conflict is based on a National Conflict between two National Movements and it is hopefully solvable. But hamas in a way represents religious conflict that is not solvable. And i know that there are those saying that using violence even in a dreadful manner is the only way to achieve freedom or achievement to your people, but this is not the situation in gaza. Israel left gaza. We pulled out our forces, we dismantled the settlements, and in order to get legitimacy and to open gaza, and now there is noize noize no israeli there and the entire world including u. S. And russia and u. N. And e. U. , said that hamas could get legitimacy only if they stop renouncing violence and accept the agreement and abide to it and accept the right of israel to exist and theyre not willing to do so. So, it is important that we bear it in mind when people are speaking what about israel needs to do and for those of us believing in peace, hamas is an obstacle to peace. It is not just a tactical matter, it is a strategic matter. You pointed out something important which is this con flick is unlike the 73 one, not between the arab nations and israel. And as a former Foreign Minister you must be watching this carefully. What is your sense of the reaction of the arab countries who would certainly decades ago Something Like this would have happened, one assumed the arab countries would have cheered on, th there would have been demonstrations on the streets. Im struck by the fak that you do not have much of that. I wondered your thoughts on it . Yes, it is not a first time. We saw the division in our region in the last few years and even more that the vision is not between the other world and israel, but it is between the moderate in the region, the more pragmatics and the extremists. And the religious Islamist Groups and in lebanon, so it is different camps in the region. And for them, hamas, they represent this kind of religious ideology for them it is not winning something. Its something that could have an impact within their own countries. And therefore it is clear that hamas doesnt represent any arab cause and any palestinian cause. And speaking if i may also about the International Community, i think that it is time to understand that when this kind of Terrorist Organization has a political brand and a military branch, it is the same and we see it with hamas, with hezbollah in lebanon, the abuse of the political power, they are abusing the democratic rules to get more and more power and to use it against others and against israel or unite the region or even against their own citizens and that is what we see in gaza and lebanon and from International Community and the support coming from the International Community and the United States and President Biden is touching and important. But lets also speak about the future. I think that it is time to recognize what we are facing, what is the meaning of hamas and hezbollah, a Terrorist Organization that represents and some religion conflict and not to legitimatize their Political Branch in the future as well. Tzipi livni, thank you as always for your perspective on a day of tragedy for israel. Thank you. When we come back, well hear from a palestinian former view, from the former information from the authority, mustafa garboti. According to rl jazeera, the leader of hamas has said the group is on the verge of a great victory. After its incursion into israeli territory. Political leaderish mail has blamed it on the occupation of Palestinian Land. For another palestinian view point, i wanted to bring in dr. Mustafa barghouti, a former Information Minister for the Palestinian Government which is in control of the parts of the west bank but does not control gaza. Welcome, minister. I again want to make sure that viewer viewers understand that they have been opponent of hamas so you are not affiliated with hamas. You represent the Palestinian Authority which has control over parts of the west bank. All of that said, what is your reaction to what you have seen so far . Well, first of all, im not part of the Palestinian Authority as a matter of fact i represent a democratic Palestinian Movement called Palestinian National initiative which is not hamas. And we have of course im not affiliated with hamas. But i think this situation that has evolved is a direct result of the continuation of the longest occupation in modern history. Israeli occupation of Palestinian Land since 1967, this is 156 years of occupation. That has transformed into a system of appetite. A much worse appetite that in south africa. Yes, maybe hamas did not recognize israel, but the Palestinian Authority did. What they did get . Nothing. Since 2013, the Israeli Government will not even meet with palestinians and what you see today is reaction to several things. First of all, settler Terrorist Attacks on the west bank that has rev has evicted many and settlers in the west Bank Including 40 children. Attacks on the holy sites, the muslim and christian holy sites as well as the declaration of netanyahu that he will liquidate the normalization of our countries and he dared even to go to the United Nations and carried into the United Nations a map of israel which includes the whole of the west bank, all of gaza, all of jerusalem, as well as the golan heights. He declared annexation of the occupied territories. So palestinians turn to resistance because they see this is the only way for them to get their rights. The question here is not about dehumanizing palestinians as it happening and calling them terrorists, it is about asking the question, why the United States supports ukraine, in fighting what they call occupation, while here they are supporting the occupier, who continues to occupy us. But let me ask you if that is the analogy you wish to draw, what hamas is doing, is they are targeting israeli civilians, women, children, grandmothers. No, they are not. Is that is that not a classic terrorist isnt that classic terrorists. Theyre not fighting the government. Theyre fighting ordinary people. That is one way of putting it. But it is not true. Think hamas mainly attacked military establishments, Military Installations and most of the people there, they have arrested and taken as as military people. I did not accept attacking any civilian. I dont know accept that they are attacking civilians. But look at what the planes are doing in gaza. They are bombarding housing and bringing Down To Earth and youve shown on on your screen, whole apartments, whole buildings, highrise buildings are brought down to the ground and we already are reporting receiving reports of families that are killed. Nine people in one family, ten people in another family including children. I do not want any civilian to be hurt. Neither by palestinians or by israel, but the question is how to end that. Will it end by attacking gaza strip another time . Israel has already conducted five wars on gaza. One of them lasted 51 days. They destroyed everything. This did not stop hamas, did not stop resistance. There is one way to stop any violence, and that is to end ththe Israeli Occupation and to be fair, the United States could not say that israel has the right to defend itself but we dont have the right to defend ourselves. Let me remind you of the case of who was not only palestinian but also money american, a very peaceful journalist, she was shot to death by an israeli sniper. Was anybody indicted . Was anybody taken to court . No. 52 other journalists were also killed. Our are shot at, our doctors are shot at. This should stop. And the ome way to stop it is to tell israel, you have to respect International Law and end this illegal occupation and accept palestinians as equal human beings. Let me ask you about the practical reality of what is going to happen here, which you know because youve lived there you this, which is this is going to strengthen rightwing forces in israel, it is going to strengthen the forces that say have no mercy, have a huge military response, presumably the life of palestinians in on the west bank will get harder. For check points, more searches. Isnt the practical effect of all of this going to be much worse for the average palestinian . Unfortunately, fareed, what have you described it exactly what we already have. Today the whole west bank is paralyzed by 560 militarize really checkpoints. And these checkpoints were there during the last 30 years. We are suffering from all that is built on our land. The whole west bank has been divided into 224 small ghettos, separated from each other. And the settlers are everywhere attacking plaalestinians. You speak about rightwing government in israel, this is already right wing and having fashionists in his government. He described himself as a fascist homophone and said that the palestinians have one of three options only, either to immigrate, or accept a life of subjugation. Or die. Netanyahu never negated these statements. And both said that their plan was to annex the west bank. Could we stop this . All of the israeli who are now in gaza could be released tomorrow, including everybody if there are civilians, also the civilians, even the generals of the israeli army could be released if israel also accepted to release our 5,300 palestinian Princip Prisoners who are in jails including palestinians who are in jail without knowing why under the administrative detention. They dont know why they are arrested and they not charged, their loys dont know where they are arrested and that is life that we have. Look, fareed, we have lived all of ow lives under occupation. My father lived under occupation. My daughter is living under occupation. We want a time when we, the palestinians will be free. Hamas was not there 30 years ago, 40 years ago. But before that, laws were described as terrorist. Would palestinians who struggles for his rights or for freedom is described as terrorist and the question here, do we have the right to struggle for freedom, do we have the right to struggle for real democracy . Do we have the right to have normal democratic elections which unfortunately israel and the United States dont support . I think we are entitled to that. But if we struggle, we are terrorists. If we struggle in an unviolent way we are described as violent. Even if we resist with wars we are described as prove caters and if you are a jewish person and there are many of those, who support palestinian cause, they call him selfhating jew. This should end. Is didnt make sense. We should all have equal life and peace and we should all live in dignity. The main way to achieve that is to end occupation in the system of appetite that im sure no jewish person could be proud of. Time has come for that and time has come for justice and freedom. If we achieve that, there will be no violence and nobody will be hurt. Mustafa barghouti, thank you for giving us your time and your sper p perspective. When we come back, well be joined by Naftali Bennett, the former Prime Minister of israel. Joining me now is israels former Prime MinisterNaftali Bennett. He enlisted if the idf reserves yesterday after the attacks. Prime minister, tell us what all this looks like to you on the ground . You must have i know youve been traveling around the country. This is very hard to contain, very hard to absorb. Such scale and such cruelty. What has been going on is about 30 hours until just a few hours ago, was a massacre in slow motion going on in dozens of communities in southern israel where Hamas Terrorists went from one home to another and entered the home with their rifles, and with babies and with rifles, killed the mother and the father, and in many cases the family closed the shelter door which is a thick steel door, so that the terrorists could not enter, the terrorists were walking just right outside of the door telling them it is idf soldier, open up, and another side of the door the family just praying that they go away. When the family doesnt open the door, to be murdered, then the Hamas Terrorists burns the house. And then it becomes smoke enters the room and then the families have to open the door and then their slaughtered, point blank. And imagine that. Imagine weve had situations where 9yearold girl is pulled by her hair, by the terrorists and kidnapped into hamas, the hamas state that is just a few kilometers from here, from where im standing. Mothers trying to defend their children while the dad is out there. The mayor of this area, a good friend of mine, he put his family in the shelter and he went out with his pistol to fight the terrorists. He was killed. But his family is saved. Were still waiting to hear what is going on with his son. So many personal stories and friends that have been murdered. This is very personal. And this is not how human beings act. This is an act of monsters. Let me ask you about this the intelligence and security failure. Because youre a former Prime Minister. You have had security briefings. How what is your sense of how this happened . Because to my mind, as ive said, this seems more dramatic than 73 because this is gaza. It is not trying to figure out what is happening in foreign capitals. And secondly, how did the iron dome not work as well as it was expected to against these thousands of missiles . Well, i have to admit that we were surprised. And were going to have to learn how that happened. But the general in the military history, there are always big surprises, pearl harbor, barber ossa, and Yom Kippur War and at the end of the day intelligence could go so far. What im very proud to say is that in seeing and meeting just amazing heroes, israeli heroes that are not in the army, they are 40yearold men who get on the uniform and enjoy the list and reserve and defend other families across israel. We have 150 enlisting rate. Im getting so many calls from people who say i want to go defend other israelis. This is a beautiful nation that we have a courageous nation that is out fighting and unfortunately people are dying while defending other people. Just tremendous amount of acts of heroism and i just met a guy who was he took two bullets in his body. But he saved his family. Not far from here, he saved his family from terrorists who were about about 15 terrorists. And there were four israeli civilians but they had their guns and they fended off the terrorists until about five or six hours later, the army finally came. President netanyahu said this is going to be a long and difficult war. Do you agree . I mean, again, from the outside we think thei Israeli Defense forces are strong and do you think this is going to be long and difficult . I think it will be long and difficult. I think not unlike pearl hash y pearl harbor, this war is not against hamas only. The way i view it hamas, islam, jihad, they are one front and they even say that. And the way that we need to operate is by surprise. We dont have to play by their rule book. And the fact that hamas attacked us here doesnt mean we have to go straight into there. It means that we could act however we find right. And i will say that our enemies from tehran to gaza, to anywhere that theyre trying to hurt us, were going to get them. It is going to hurt. And were going to hit them back because we have a strong nation and, yeah, we took a huge blow, a huge blow, unimaginable but were strong and we will prevail. Naftali bennett, thank you very much. My apologies for calling Prime Minister netanyahu president netanyahu. When we come back. Well be with New York Times columnist ned freeman to discuss the conflict and the wider implications when we come back. And now joining me to discuss the broader context of The Con Fflict is tom freedman,e was the times Bureau Chief In Beirut and jerusalem and is author of the book from beirut to jerusalem. He won the first two Pulitzer Prizes reported from the region. Let me first ask you, you think about this a lot, you always interested in technology and such, what strikes you about the asymmetry of this attack, hamas after all very weak compared to the idf, terrorism is always the weapon of the weak. Yet they were able to pull off something quite extraordinary partly because of the surprise and the brutality, right . You know, fareed, i think this war will be studied by Intelligence Services all over the word. A lot of people are saying this is israels 9 11. That is just silly. 9 11 was a complete Unimagined Eept that people would turn airlines into suicide bombs. This was completely anticipated. This was completely expected. Israel built A Billion Dollars wall to prevent this. So the fact that the wall was breached by a bulldozer, by palestinian and hamas people in little cars driving their own cars, how did that happen, number one . How did they maintain surprise . This was a very complex, sophisticated attack involving sea land and air, drones. It had been planned over a long period of time. Did tht know use cell phones . Were they masked with the help of iran, i have no idea. So we need to understand how this basically very small force armed with Just Enough Technology managed to surprise and overwhelm what is considered one of the most Technologically Sa Savvy Militaries in the world. You have been writing for a while about this new right wing Israeli Government and its actions in the west bank. It has members of it who talk about annexing all of the west bank and gaza. Do you think this played a role in the sort of backdrop of this attack . Fareed, there will be one day im sure some kind of Inquiry Mission on this war. And if i go the to write indictment number one, it would go to israels Justice Minister levine. Remember that name. Yarve, levine. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court under the name of Judiciary Review and when he did, with netanyahus help, he fractured israel. He fractured israeli society. He fractured the israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the israeli air force, triggered 40 weeks of 100,000 israelis coming out every Saturday Night to protest this. Last week i quoted an israeli former Defense Department official as saying, our preparation has been harmed by this whole facture of our society. That is where this started. And if i get to write the indictment, he will be the indicted person number one. But netanyahu enabled him. And tell me, i got to get you on the broader issues. What does this mean for the saudi deal, for normalization . It would seem that it becomes much more complicated because now you have inflamed passions on the arab street, as they say, or do you think the saudis dont care about that and theyre looking at it practically and it is to their advantage. I think in the long run their interest are in in normalization with israel and that will prevail in the longterm. But in the shortterm, this war between hamas and israel makes this impossible. If iran doesnt stimulator encourage it, it understands it is a huge beneficiary of that. The last thing iran was a u. S. Saudi counterbalance to iran. So right now that is no longer possible. The idf has said that they want to take control of gaza. I assume they mean this temporarily, but your colleague Brett Stevens has written in the times today, Expelling Hamas from gaza, im not sure where they go, but he said there could be a Peace Keeping force to rule gaza, i would guess. What happens to gaza . Is that a possible . Because it is difficult to imagine israel just beating up a Bunch Of Palestinians In Gaza and then withdrawing back into israel again. Fareed, always remember, who Got Israel Out of gaza . It is arch hawk, one of the most celebrated military commanders. He understood that it is just an incredible quagmire and that is why netanyahu all of these years, 15 years as Prime Minister has never wanted to go in. So i think we have to be, very, very careful. And asking other people, i love them, but to ask people to be Peace Keeping forces in uae, saudi arabia, they could barely manage their border with the houthis. The idea that we would turn our security over to arab armies. I dont see that. But what the israelis will try to do, theyre going to try to restore their deterrence, which they understand has been broken here. Theyre going to do some very harsh things in gaza. I have no doubt about that. Whether that involves a reoccupation, i dont know. But theyre going to do some very harsh things. The United States is going to be in be asked to support that. The world is going to be asked to support that. And all i know is this, fareed, if israel is going to ask the world to do that, it is going to first of all, netanyahu will have to break up this crazy insane cabinet he has assembled and boot out his National Security minister of israel, is today a guy who is so unfit, the israeli army wouldnt take him when he was a young man. Netanyahu has to stop playing politics and start understaunderstanding hes a war survivor and he needs to clean up his act big time and build a cabinet of serious people, moderate people, because israel going to do some very tough stuff, fareed and it is not going to be easy for the world to take and it is not going to happen if people who are in his cabinet that are absolute arsonists. Tom friedman, thank you. And thanks for being part of my program this week. And i will see you next week