Preferred better science, better results. I melies nonna in washington and this is cnn coming up on 9 00 p. M. Here in new york are continuing to monitor developments out of The Middle East where were learning more about the Ceasefire Proposal that hamas, except in israel, rejected today. And its really drags on Southern Gaza are raising new questions about whether these limited operations will grow into a fullfledged invasion of raffa, which by the administration has been warning against for weeks we begin the hour right now. Did they 12 and the Trump Hush Money Trial And Judges Second Contempt Finding against the former president today in his warning that a third could mean jail time, that im prosecutors calling two longtime trump employees as they tried to show exactly how Michael Cohen was repaid by trumps trust and personal accounts in 2017 after he paid hush money to store daniels back with the panel joining us as well as harry lipman, who was in court todays and la times Legal Affairs columnist, host of the Talking Feds Podcast former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Im wondering what you observed as judge merchan worn trump about potential jail time it was really sort of jaw dropping. Weve been having different judges and different courts kind of wag their fingers, but he looked directly at trump, softspoken, but very firm. Mr. Trump you are out of rope and it was really the sort of statement weve been waiting for, for a year next time, youre done and it sensible and in a way, because with only 1,000 to work with for other violations, why why should he did all around, but he said next time, thats it. And he really means that his credibility would be on the line as well as the integrity of the judicial system. It was a dramatic moment for geoff made the point let us which i think is very correct that trump actually has been abiding by the gag order since the violation to which he is now been punished for. I think thats right. And he he seemed sort of solid at it, angry and he has been at least trying to skate around it and now were talking about jayyab. Theres a lot of discussion. Would he . I get quixotic lee for political reasons. But jail, not fun for you know, just, just imagine. Sort of know, hairdressers and the whole did he say did he say next time is it or did he imply that . Somewhere in between . So what he said is necessary and appropriate, which of course you say, but what was really striking about it was the direct address to trump. I havent heard that before and weve been waiting. He really said next time, but its like a borderline of a directive and begging him, like hes the joint because as i said, well, i think you did a great job. The judge, hes like dont do this. Like i dont wanna do this like dont make me do this, dont put me in this position. Lets draw transcripts. Yeah, i have it right here, actually, because he he said this is a last resort measure for him that he does not want to have to do this, which i think is important to emphasize because im sure trumps allies have been taking the judge and saying hes being treated unfairly. He said, yeah, youre the former president of the united states, possibly the next is well, he said there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me. And he said to take that step, would one disrupt these proceedings, which i imagine you want to end as quickly as possible, speaking directly to trump he said, i also worry about the people who would have to execute that sanction. The court officers, the correction officers, the Secret Service detail. All right. Among others, he basically is talking about how involved it would be to actually take this action. But i think the other thing to remember when it comes to last resort, trump has violated this ten times. I mean, would any other defendant be able to violate a gag order ten times and only were not going and doesnt go to 11. Yeah. But on an e felony, which is the lowest felon, right. For a man whos 77 years old, whos never been in trouble in his life, take out the whole prejudice an average 77 year old. He has a huge platform though to go after these witnesses and to talk about these jurors. Thats exactly why he was being found. Caitlin, you brought up a point though and i think a lot of even the future, the present and the future, it depends on the degree of violation. So if tomorrow he comes out there and says, someone should take out Michael Cohen, i think donald trump will be put in jail immediately. If he says, i still dont feel like im getting a fair trial from these jurors. I dont know if the judge would say yes, its a violation, but im not putting you in jail for that. So i might have to graduate. I disagree about i think theres no more room to say violation, but youre okay. He might he might really try to keep from finding a violation, but if he does, i think no more room, but i do think that what he did today, in addition to the comments there were four things on his desk that could potentially be violations. He didnt say that all of them were and some of them involve comments about witnesses like Michael Cohen and others. And so i think the judge actually by doing both things at the same time, was basically saying, look, there are leinz here. I think the jury is aligned for him rightfully so the jury is their regular people, trump aligning them to kaitlan point on his massive platform is a huge problem. We know that there are consequences of that, but the judge seem to at least in this latest tranche say, okay, well, him calling a witness. Nice. That doesnt quite count hes drawing some lines there and saying that there are degrees to this and hes not willing to just say everything in this category is a violation when it may not be. There are other costs to donald trump here. Real costs to irritating the dej to pushing the judges patients. Number one, if donald trump gets convicted, this is guy whos sentencing him. Lets keep that in mind and the sentence here will be, of course, up to the judge. And this will be a close call. I mean, if you look at class ii felonies, the lowest level of felony, most of them result in probation and finds not prison time, but some do. And the judge would be well within his rights to say, im going to take into account the fact that you violated my order ten times. The second cost is this team has his lawyers are flying blind here. They dont know whos coming tomorrow because they asked for that. They said, judge, wed like to know at one point, todd bland said, i promise you, i will prevent him from tweeting and the judge says, i dont think you can make that promise. And so normally a Defense Lawyer would certainly know the night before whos coming tomorrow instead, they dont know if theyre going be crossexamined hi, daniel treating his actually hurt his case. Yes. Intangible ways. So maybe hes taking that and look if hes selfinterested, which is or know if hes rational, but hes selfinterested. You should be taking that. Theyre finding out the de, but theyre finding out very close. They were complaining that they found out very late yesterday, who the first witness would be today. They said the same thing about david pecker when he first its to fight, but they are getting a pretty de to notice. It will just so were clear, they know the universe of potential witnesses. The government is required by law to produce the universe. So theyre not picking names out of hats, but the order in which theyre called is as a courtesy, is different having a pair for any the evidence de because you were you were very struck. I heard you say by the alawites tilburg notes on a document, lets put the document that we showed this in the last hour. Why why was this such an important piece of evidence . Two reasons i think the first is it corroborates what cohen has been saying for years, including in front of congress all the way down to the actual kind of calculation. How do you get from one 30 to the other thing is the idea that this was a scam. Michael cohen was, was executing on on donald trump, jacking up this price and trump was ignorant of it. This shows at least an hour and yslow burge was working out exactly what the figure would, but thats the second point. It obliterates any argument which you could have had after say, whoa, picks that this was somehow cohen acting on his own. This is why so berg, above him and they are doing it together. All you can now set hey its always useful to think about what therell be able to i mean, if anybody knows who otherwise, ill burger is if yslow berg is doing it, it means its being done with trumps approval. The only sliver is somehow hes that the jury doesnt necessarily get well, the jury believed that without alawites were testifying who who convinces the drafts have a really important point. I think its the one thing, the one hole in whats otherwise 360 Degree Coverage and what cohen has to say is this conversation. But you need a reason theres no count. How could why berg and cohen somehow be freelancing in this sense, when everything weve heard about trump is what a micromanager terry and the like. But at least it, it says no, no more argument that is cohen on his own as hope hicks suggested, on a simple question i have did they explain what that 50,000 services i mean, its a big number. It is. And well, what conus said is its a separate payment for some kind of technology kind of service chris, that he had done before. Some people are whispering, maybe its another kind of campaign thing, but i think its just another payment. He made a few months previous theres also a 60,000, quote, unquote, bonus. So thats legal its a bonus. Thats what they call. Im just curious what that 50 grand is because thats a big number phonetics Knowledge Service this is when the pay off the Hush Money Pay off is 130,000 and then you have this other 50 on top of it. Not yeah. You might get all confusing for those jurors, but remember you also had a witness today who said that donald trump is perfectly capable and sometimes did not sign checks so he obviously could have said to all the and it wasnt just one check. It was it was i think 11 different checks reimbursing khan. He could have said, what is this . Why am i paying this, right . That document answers the question of why he was paying it is although remember also earlier on cohen complaints to pecker hes not paying me something kind of happened that made trumped so complying here and the version will come with colin and also the question of why was it not a one for one payoff . Why was it not just the entire amount that they just paid all of that . Why did they instead do it . And those monthly installments, i havent seen any explanation of that from the trump team. Just to look Like Legal Services hey nor we give you 35,000 to do Legal Services that youre not providing. One thing i was really struck by last week in the courtroom was just watching the jury was how closely they are following everything. I mean, pretty much everybody in that jury box when i was there was watching and listening very intently. So when were taking notes, but everybody was that the way it was . Im really agree on today was kind of, you could say a slog of a day, you could say nuts and bolts stay, but it wouldve been a day that a lot of jurors would have phased out. They were they were attentive. They werent like wrapped and taking up, but they were attentive even through the afternoon i think the idea that as the controller said, donald trump basically almost fired him for paying what he i mean the implication is that donald trump actually owed this money, but he was like, i need you to make it a smaller number. That is not paying and people giving them and being like, oh yeah, what are you going to do his attorneys now demand Retainer Fees in largest part because there werent chris kaiser works are now got 5 million upfront before he did any legal one hour away. And its amazing in a way that Michael Cohen actually was paid because donald trump just typically, whether it is legitimately owed, are not typically does not want to pay what hes let alone three times, right. Remember that he wanted to go into past the election is then he wouldnt have to pair. But somehow 12 checks nine of them signed by him. Theres a little more to this story. He didnt pay Rudy Giuliani. Rudy giuliani went to him to seek help for his own legal expenses. He would not pay him because he claimed that he said that as lawsuits in his efforts to try to help trump overturn the Election Results didnt work. And so when Rudy Giuliani went to him and said, well, i did all this on your behalf, trump would not pay and now were at giuliani is voting his own legal. Becker said here when cohen went to them, that trump said, hes got plenty of money. We dont need to pay him. Then he did something. I mean, this is why so much every de is riding even more on Michael Cohen because im brought back to the fact that Michael Cohen decided to tape trump in that critical moment to say im about to make this payment for you, Michael Cohen knew that he needed the proof. He created the evidence of it, and was ultimately paid back. This is incredibly incriminating and Sensitive Information for donald trump. He did not want it out there. And Michael Cohen was the one person son who knew all about every element of this. So when he gets on the Witness Stand, theres quite a lot there. Its always been inevitable that they were going to need michael cohn to draw that link. And lets remember if we say, well, why should donald trump have to know about the small bore nuances of accounting . Because the Prosecutor Charging with a small bore nuance accounting crime, they chose to charge that they have to link them to it. What the prosecutors have been doing. And i think quite successfully thus far is reducing the amount of gap that Michael Cohen needs to bridge all these documents, all this testimony from david packer and others makes what Michael Cohen is about to say and we all know about what is going to be saying in a couple of days or whenever he takes us then makes it easier to swallow easier her to believe more plausible. So theyre theyre trying to they know the jury has to take a Leap Of Faith with Michael Cohen and they want to minimize that. Well, you always talk about that tape where he says to Michael Cohen, like you just take care of it, right refresh my record. So this is a tape relating to Karen Mcdougal, a couple of months before the Stormy Daniels payoff, but this got introduced to the jury on friday, and essentially Michael Collins says, were gonna be paying Karen Mcdougal and trumps fine. Sure. One 50. How are we going to do it . And Michael Cohen says none and no, no, i got it. I got it. Dont worry me and me and alan are going to work actually shrimps suggests and trends someone who says right, 50, right, trumps says one 50 and trump says cash. I dont see that necessarily as demming for him. Hes saying were just gonna were gonna pay it in one shot that does, by the way, cash doesnt necessarily mean an envelope filled with 100 bills when someone buys a house with cash, it means a onetime project. And Michael Cohen understands him to mean that because michael says no, no, no financing, meaning were going to do this more complex than just a onetime transaction. So if im a prosecutor, i wish Michael Cohen never hit secretly hit record on his own client. I dont like that tape. It goes both ways. It gives some points to the prosecution, some points that offense, but man, if youre the prosecution, you have that burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You dont want an a piece of evidence that has useful stuff both ways. One thing that we always talk about Michael Owens credibility understandably and i remember, i mean, everyone remembers his congressional testimony. Trump is also on tape lying about what he knew about this. I mean, that iconic moment on Air Force One when catherine lucy, who i believe was with the Associated Press at the time, asked him what he knew. He straightup lies and says he didnt know about it, even though by that time hed already paid Michael Cohen backboard. So donald trump also has credibility issues here. Any lied to hope picks, its clear that she painter to say it, but she was saying no. Cohen, this is not what cone would do when trump told me that he did it of his own accord. I dont believe it home and told hope hicks he did it on his own she testified to that thats not good for colon. Thats not good for the different hicks testified that trump told her that cohen did it on his own, and then she followed up by saying, but that but she doesnt believe thats not what cohen lied to her as well, that several aspects of this ir libman. Thank you. Thanks. Everyone. Else say where theres next more details from the full proud transcript weve just out tonight, including a portion of the prosecution stepbystep attempt to do what weve just been talking about, namely establish that link that ellie just mentioned connecting the defendant to the alleged primes through the testimony of one of his former top money man. And later brock reviewed whos got new reporting and what israel may be about to do about a key crossing into Southern Gaza finnish ultimate engin