Third time. This is your third book. I want you to tell us about your father and his storytelling. Robert my father was the single greatest storyteller i have ever known. He owned his own motorcycle chains and lubricants business when we were young. But he functioned as its sole traveling salesman. He was on the road for nine or 10 months out of the year by car. We grew up feeling like we knew him. My dad would call me out of school. Sometimes for weeks at a time can you imagine such a dream for a kid . And he would take me on business trips across the United States. By the time i was eight or nine, i had been to all 48 continental states. I knew more about Oil Viscosity and paint than any eightyearold in the country. We would pass the time during these long stretches by telling stories. Few would tony made up stories true stories. He was the single greatest weaver of yarns you could imagine. There was always one condition if he told you a story, you tell him one. Brian you remember one of his stories . Robert he had a series of stories about two fictional back was named marvin and arvin. If you can imagine a story about bad schools and went on trips with their very bad father, they would stretch from state to state. Then he would tell me true stories about buying a coppermine when he graduated from college, and his adventures in mexico running a coppermine as a 22yearold kid. Brian do you have brothers and sisters . Robert i have a sister that is younger than i am and a brother who is five years younger. Brian your mom was a storyteller . Robert wonderful storyteller. That is part of what they loved about each other and had in common. The thing about both of them is that they were sensitive people and noticed everything. Their entire worlds were in shades of gray. There was no black and white. They would notice things that made others sad or could affect others emotionally that no one else could see. They would say, see that person . That person is suffering inside or does not know what to do. At first glance, they would look like anyone else. But when they told you what to look for, see how their eyes are moving, they noticed everything. That was at the bottom of what made their stories great. Brian do you notice everything . Robert i try to, and it is a doubleedged sword. When you grow up with people do notice everything, you start to notice things yourself, including the sad and happy things. It is a vibrant world when you notice, but it can be upsetting sometimes. Brian we have not talked about this you talked about the difficulty you had in high school. You got ds and fs. Robert i was right 606 out of 660 in northbrook, illinois. The safety schools others were applying to wear my first choices, and i did not get into those. My guidance counselor advised me not to even bother with college or community college. Rather to enroll in the peace corps. I was so naive, i did not know what the peace corps was. It was looking bad for me at 18. Brian what was the problem you had with high school and some of the kids had with you . Robert i had moved a few days before high school started. I went from a solidly middleclass neighborhood to a very upperclass neighborhood. I did not quite fit in right away and never connected with the kids. There was some kind of dysfunction happening at home too, that was difficult on me emotionally. A lot of the factors came together in a confluence of circumstances that did not make for a productive for years. Brian was that between your mother and father . Robert they had a troubled marriage at that point, even though they loved and admired each other. But my mother was suffering emotionally at the time. It was not the most stable household. It was interesting. I do not think there was anyone in the history of my high school that did as poorly as i did academically but was in no trouble. I did no drugs, did not drink a single beer. Brian we talked before about you went the to the university of wisconsin, harvard law school. Then you got into the writing business. What were the things one of the things that got your attention was my favorite teacher karma , an article for esquire. Robert this teacher in northbrook, illinois, who was a very kind, gentle man, that seemed to see the loneliness in other students. There were those of us that felt disconnected from everything and were having trouble at home, felt lonely in the world. He seemed to see that, he noticed everything too. Was very kind to the lost souls of the school. At least on the surface. And people gravitated towards him and a trusted him. He was also the athletic trainer. I would see him in the locker room, taping up members of the football team. But one day, he did not come to school. There was an announcement he would not be there. By that time, all the radio and tv in chicago was announcing his arrest for the murder and rape of the son of a policeman. It turns out it was not his first kidnapping and abduction. He had a sophisticated way of picking up hitchhikers. He resigned his post because he intended to go after his own students. On the 20th anniversary, i always thought about him, as funny as that might sound, and i always wondered how that might happen to such a gentle man. I went and found him in prison. He was serving a life sentence. I asked him the questions those wondering. Brian what was he like . Robert as gentle and nice as i remembered. He was remorseful. I had read court transcripts. He explained terrible things have gone wrong with him. She had a genetic disorder with an extra chromosome. It developed in certain ways physiologically as a woman. He was a very complex situation. But he knew what he was doing and that it was getting worse and worse. He planned to take himself into the wilderness in montana, so far that he could never do these things again. But he was finally caught and sentenced. Brian is he still alive . Robert i believe he is still alive. After our second visit, he cut off contact. But i learned one of the students he may have had his eye on was me. Myself. Brian did you feel it at that he was after you . Robert it felt just the opposite. With him alone, it felt that you were safe and the entire world was a threat to a 14yearold kid that was displaced with nowhere to go. That was the one safe place, in his presence. Brian what was the process that you wanted to write about for esquire magazine . Robert when i told the editors about the story, they felt it was compelling. Especially the part about my involvement. When i went to read the story write the story, i believe that writers should be like good umpires invisible. I took the personal part out of the story. My editor mike said that is the most important part. Put it back in. When i put myself back into the story, that is when the story resonated for people. Brian what happened after that story . What recognition did you get . Your first book was in 2004 . Robert it really launch my career in terms of magazines and books. I became a finalist for the National Magazine of. I got award. I got a lot of attention from agents. Brian what did your wife think . Robert she was very happy for me and very supportive. I used to be a lawyer and had better Career Prospects at the time. But she was behind me the entire way. I could not have done it without her. Brian did you have rough times in the beginning as a writer where you did not have the money to live on . Was it ever difficult . Robert i had made a vow at law school that i would not get the old in handcuffs put on me golden handcuffs put on me. A lawyer is a deadening profession in some ways. We all talk about, do not get the mortgage, the bmw. Do not bury yourself in debt. I was grateful i stuck to that promise. I had a wife who said, no matter what you are making, if you come home every day, i am happy. Brian your first book sold 600,000 copies. How many more has shadow divers sold since then . Robert i think it is closing in on a million. 22 languages. It has done very well. Brian lets bring the audience uptodate. Lets show a little of that interview from 2004. [video clip] robert a friend told me about the story originally added touted too it sounded too unbelievable to be true two divers finding a german u boat. Brian once someone gave you the idea, what did you do . Robert i got on the phone with the divers, the principal divers, and asked them, could this be true . They said, not only is it true, it is more than that. I asked if i could see them and i was on my way. Brian who were the divers . Robert John Chatterton and Richie Kohler. Brian you lost a lot of weight. Robert i was chubby. Brian how did you do that . Robert i had a doctor tell me i was one step away from diabetes. My dad was overweight and diabetic. This was five or six years ago. I have two young boys of my own. I remember how painful it was to watch my dad died in front of me. I did not want to inflict that on my family. Brian his mom alive . Robert she died recently. She was a great admirer of yours and had hopes for me. I am grateful she lived to see me have some success. Brian lets go back to the millionseller. What impact did it have on your life . Robert the thing it really did for me is it gave me enough Financial Security to take a chance on writing books that interested me. I did not need to follow up with a nautical adventure, which is what people were expecting. I was able to take a risk in my next project. It also allowed me to take my time. If i needed to find the right story or do something over, i did not feel pressured to rush something. Brian economically, this book is selling so well is everything settled down . Robert for the first time, it is settled down. My wife is an attorney. I made one promise do not marry the attorney. Thankfully, i broke that. So she is contributing and was finding her way at that time too. Brian one of the characters in shadow divers, John Chatterton is in the current book. The second book you wrote was crashing through. Here is our interview in 2007. [video clip] brian how did you find mike may . Robert at the time, he was 50 years old. The only mention of mike was that he had gained division from a rare stem cell transplant. There was no mention of his emotional state. I had to know what his life was like. I looked up his name and phone number in davis, california and introduced myself. I was ready to hear someone that sounded to be on the verge of suicide. All these cases are filled with reports of suicidal thoughts, fury at the surgeons who cured them. In the best documented case, the person was so disappointed in the visual world, he gave up and died. I expect it to hear someone a different desperate straits. But the person sounded extraordinarily busy. I told him i had read about the cases. He politely told me, i am too busy. I do not give up easily, so i kept bothering him. Finally agreed to see me. Brian mike could not see, and you told the story of how he was operated on. Have you been in touch . Robert i saw him on friday in san francisco. He is an amazing guy. His eyes are perfect. They worked perfectly. His brain will always be the issue. Some things he can do effortlessly he can sink free throw after free throw. But if you do not tell him step he will step off a 20th floor balcony. Brian in 2007, you said he could not see faces. Can he see them now . Robert you cannot see them any better than he did the first time around. If you were sitting as close as you and i and his wife were across the table, he would not know her unless she spoke. He has facial blindness. His eyes can see the face perfectly but he cannot recognize faces. Brian how did the book do . Robert i do not know the figures. It did not do what shadow divers did. But as i said, i was so grateful to branch out and do something that was not necessarily expected after the first book. I love that book. Brian we have talked in both cases about movies being made. Did a movie get made . Robert no, and they are still working on the shadow divers movie 10 or 11 years later. I was so innocent and signed a deal and calculated that it would take three months to find actors, about 10 months until the premier. 10 years later, they are still developing shadow divers. Brian what about crashing through . Robert they worked on it for years at the same studio. Several different writers and producers, but it did not seem to work out. Brian lets go to pirate hunters. The first thing i want to ask you about is why senator john mccain endorsed this book. Robert he is a man of adventure and i think a man who appreciates risktakers and brave souls. Brian does he have the same publisher . Robert i do not think so. Brian did you ask him to do this . Robert i did not, but he endorsed shadow divers. Not sure how that happened either. He had the same publisher 10 years ago. I think that is how we made a initial connection. But i was flattered the first time and even more grateful this time around. Brian there is video on the website promoting the book. Lets start the process by looking at part of the trailer. [video clip] Joseph Bannister is the only pirate in history to fight the british navy to a standstill. This is unheard of. Pirates ran and hightailed it. He actually went in for a shot. I was working on another book when the phone rang. The person on the other end did not introduce themselves. They just said, do you like pirates . It was John Chatterton, the subject of my previous book, shadow divers. The thing that attracted me to the Golden Fleece was the character of Joseph Bannister. Up until 1680, Joseph Bannister was a wellrespected english gentleman, noble sea captain. Then he stole the Golden Fleece and turned pirate. Brian can you tell us what book you were working on before John Chatterton called . Robert i was working on a military story, trying to put together the pieces of it. A story about heroes. I am drawn to heroic stories. Men at turning points in their lives. But it was not really coming together the right way. It was a vietnam story. Some of the pieces were missing. I found myself yearning for the adventure i wrote about the first time around. The phone rang, and it was John Chatterton from shadow divers. Brian what did you do . Robert i tried to make excuses. He told me, if you like pirates, come to new jersey. I have like pirates since seven years old, but it was christmas time and there were presence to wrap. But the thing i learned from John Chatterton is if there is a window in life, you go. So i packed up, headed east on i94 to new jersey, to hear the story. Brian how long did you spend with him before you said, i have a book . Robert i was in this steakhouse for 20 minutes when he told me it was not a pirate story. It was a treasure hunting story. That got me halfway there already. The idea of finding treasure looms large in my imagination. It was not until we were thrown out of the place and standing in the parking lot that he said, we will tell you how we found a pirate ship. He said, the rest will come when you go to santo domingo. But i knew i was in the right place. Brian here is more from the trailer to bring us uptodate. [video clip] this was the riskiest thing a human being could do in 1680. If you turned pirate and were caught, you would hang. But turn he did. If you learned what he did, you are looking at a completely different life. Finding a golden age pirate ship is the single rarest thing a person could find underwater. History believed they knew where the Golden Fleece had some, but it was nowhere to be found. Trying to solve those mysteries is an irresistible challenge. We logged the space you just searched, and theres nothing there. Brian has this made a difference . Robert they make these like movie trailers. That is the language of a lot of people. Brian john mattera and John Chatterton, this is all they do . Robert they are shipwreck hunters. Originally, they were at a crossroads in life. A lot of deepwater exploration. Some of it very dangerous. They saw friends die. But they were at a crossroads. Chatterton was approaching 50, and mattera, 60. They were at a Crucial Point and decided they would find the treasure ships, old spanish treasure ships. That is what they dedicated their lives to. In treasure hunting, it often turns out very bad for the explorer. They almost always go broke or do not find what they were looking for. So it was a big risk. But how could you not do it if it was out there to be found . Brian where does john mattera live . Robert in boca raton, i think. Brian when did you meet matt era robert i met him in chicago at a dive show. He was huge and powerful. He had been one of the highest aid personal bodyguards in america. He picked up a four figure dinner check that looked to be headed my way. I remember that fondly. The next time i saw him was in new jersey, several years later. Brian why do they call you . Robert they knew this discovery this was only the second pirate ship ever found and identified this was something more than a press release. It is the hardest thing you can find underwater and in the world. They are so rare, to identify someone one positively. Brian when was the Golden Fleece sunk . Robert is that of the best name, by the way . It was sunk in 1686 in a battle with royal navy warship. The ships were sent after the captain, Joseph Bannister. The ship was on its side on the beach so the crew could clean its hull. Thats when the warships arrived, but they never expected to find what they found in bannister. Brian the word careening is in the book a lot. Explain what that is. Robert i had no idea what careening matt. Meant. They had to explain that in the olden days, with wooden ships barnacles would grow on the hull. If you did not clean the hull, barnacles would slow down the ship. Pirate ships had to be fast and clean. You had to turn them on their side and scrub the hull. But it left the ship vulnerable. Brian the book has several stories. We will go to chatterton in the moment when mattera and of the mafia. Robert he grew up in staten island, the son of a hardworking guy. Mattera was surrounded by people who did business with the gambino crime family. There was always mafia in the air. He learned of the life of the streets. He was a very streetsmart kid. By the time he was in high school, he had his own Money Lending operation. He owned at nightclubs. That he was too young by law to enter. It could be he made a wrong turn and chose a life of crime or organized crime. But he had an interesting swerve. Brian what happened . Robert i think he realized if he went th