Please make sure your cell phones are silent. The debate structure this evening will be as follows. We will have an opening from each of our individual guests. We will then have rebuttal for four minutes. Each of them will then have the opportunity to engage one another in dialogue. We have cards for you in your program. You have any questions, please prepare them because we always do want the audience to have the opportunity to participate. I would like for you all to start now and tear off the top of your slip and make your determination. With regards to your position on the resolution, which is the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement will help bring about the resolution of the palestinian conflict. Vote now, youll have another opportunity to vote after you have heard our participants. The winner, obviously we are all the winners tonight being enlightened by these two intellectual giants of our time , the winner of the debate will be determined by loose ways the by who sways the most votes. The proponent for the proposition is dr. Cornell west. He is a professor of the practice of public philosophy at harvard university. He holds the title as Professor Emeritus at princeton university. He has taught everywhere you would want to learn. He has taught at Union Theological seminary, the yale university, harvard and the university of paris. He received his ma and phd in philosophy from princeton. He graduated from Harvard College magna cum laude in three years. He is in extensive author. His seminal book, one of the greatest books i have ever read, and i am privileged to have a copy at home and it is race matters. He lectures regularly and a vast variety of subjects. We are delighted to have dr. West here with us. We also have professor alan dershowitz, born in brooklyn, new york. The preeminent civil rights lawyer of our time. The Felix Frankfurter professor of law at harvard law school. In addition to numerous books, he has written one recently and he would like all of you to read and digest called trumped up how criminalization of political differences endangers our democracy. Ladies and gentlemen, please, a warm welcome for our guests today. [applause] eric it will be my job to keep time, i will do so carefully. When you hear the chirp, it will be time for you to finish, not your thought, but your sentence. [laughter] eric then to yield the microphone. The topic to be discussed be it resolved, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions movement will help bring about the resolution of the israelipalestinian conflict, the proponent for eight minutes will be dr. West. Dr. West i am blessed and honored to be here. I want to salute my brother holland for he has created a historically unprecedented salute to the moral dimension of the u. S. Republic. Why is that important . It is important precisely because the first Prime Minister state of israel, march 1949, top to june, 1963. He said the state of israel proves itself not by its material wealth, not by its military might or its technical achievement, but by its moral character and human values. One of the great contributions that we have seen when our precious jewish brothers and sisters dealing with indescribable evil generated by hitler and others jumped out of the hitler and others jumped out of the burning buildings in europe and landed in the middle east where there were both jews and arabs. Some of those arabs later called themselves the palestinians. , when theyn would be go with einstein and others and say, let us coexist, or would they go with others saying, let us dominate . Very much like the founding of the United States and canada and new zealand and australia. All of them with democratic visions, but also settler societies concerned with expanding and ending up dominating and subordinating people who were already there. So it is, with this very, very fragile and precious experiment called the state of israel. But on the one hand, how do we avoid any ugly antijewish prejudice, contempt, hatred, how hatred, and at the same time, how do we stay in contact with the humanity of our arab brothers and sisters . My question to you is, do we really believe that our response to the occupation and colonization, that the bds movement is concerned about, if it were a palestinian occupation of our precious jewish brothers and sisters, would we have the same response as opposed to the Israeli Occupation of palestinian brothers and sisters . What i love about this place is not just the words of marcus a s,ally us Marcus Aureliu and Thomas Jefferson, but i saw a picture of Martin Luther king jr. On the wall that brother harlan put there. His concern is what . That a palestinian baby has precisely the same significance and value as an israeli baby. Just like a white baby, brown baby, yellow baby, whatever. No matter what national identity, no matter what sexual orientation, no matter what skin pigmentation, the moral and the spiritual challenge. My argument is bds is in no way perfect, having its own internal tensions, variety of different voices, the reason why i joined that movement is not because i dont have criticisms of the movement, of course i do, my brother omar knows that, he is the founder of the movement, he lives in ramallah. It is the last nonviolent effort to try to ensure that the moral character and the human values of a settler colonial enterprise that has involved itself in expansion, annexation, and leading towards a fullfledged apartheid. Not because israel is in any way to be compared with the south african Apartheid Regime in all of its forms. Those palestinians inside of israel, much less apartheid. Those precious brothers and sisters in the west bank, in gaza, bishop tutu says it is worse than apartheid. That is a moral issue. Brother alan and i, who go back many years is kind enough to let me lecturing his class on the scriptural origins of law, we had good times together at harvard law. We shall continue to have good times even though we have deep disagreements on this issue. That is precisely what this temple of learning is all about. Most importantly, it has to do with the future of not just the middle east, but also the future of the United States, given our intimate relations with the state of israel. What kind of moral character, what kind of human values are we willing to promote, are we going to forget the very ugly realities in gaza and west bank . Are we to forget the secondclass citizenship of palestinians inside the state of israel, and are we to forget refugeeslf a million who still labor outside of israel, and outside of those occupied territories. It is very difficult in the United States to have a candid, robust, honest conversation about our relation to israel, and about the complexity of our precious jewish brothers and sisters in israel and our precious palestinian brothers and sisters under those occupied territories. But, it is a new day. One of the great developments taking place is especially among the young jewish brothers and sisters in the United States who have been critical of their elders, saying, you have not told us the truth about 1948. You did not tell us about the 750,000 who were pushed out. You did not tell us about the killing of the villages. You did not tell us about rabbi abraham who shed tears at the jewish theological cemetery in april of when he heard about the 1948 attack on innocent arab peoples and women and children. We come from a people, we jewish people of amos and isaiah. I speak as a christian. I have been in love with a Palestinian Jew named jesus for 54 years and intend to be faithful unto death. The claim was what . Are you willing to treat the orphan, the widow, the fatherless, the motherless, the poor, the black, the white, the red, the jews in the soviet union, the jews in many arab countries, and the palestinians under Israeli Occupation in the same way . Do we have moral caliber, do we have, as the symbol acknowledges, fortitude . What is fortitude in the classical decision . It is a fusion of courage and magnanimity. Courage is not enough. Gangsters can be courageous, they still have gangster causes. Some of those nazi soldiers were courageous but they were still thugs and gangsters. When you fuse courage with magnanimity, greatness of character, that is what we are talking about, that is what this debate is about. One minute, appreciate that. It will be a long minute. Just kidding. [laughter] dr. West i simply ask you to a knowledge that we are approaching a new day, a new framework and a new paradigm in understanding the israelipalestinian challenge. For me, the most important issue will be, do we have the socratic fortitude . The courage to question andelves, our assumptions presuppositions, to call into question some of the mendacious interpretations . Israel, village in the jungle. No, no not at all. In the jungle where human beings had their own rich civilizations, just like when we arrived in the states and acted as if there were just buffaloes and indians, but no people. A lie. Where is our commitment to the truth, and the condition of truth is always, as brother Martin Luther king jr. Reminded us, the condition of truth is always to allow suffering to speak across race, class, gender, and sexual orientation. Again, i want to think my dear brother harlan for bringing me back. I want to thank brother alan for allowing us to take off and engage in this intellectual struggle together as we smile but also shed tears. We both are concerned about the suffering on both sides of this very, very delicate and ugly divide. [applause] mr. Dershowitz that was a very stirring and effective presentation. I am so glad to be heard today. It is very hard to have a israelpalestine conflict. It is very hard to have a serious conversation about the israelpalestine conflict. I have been prevented from doing so at several universities by students who have tried to stop any kind of proisrael speakers. I myself have long favored a two state solution, the end of the occupation. Im not a particular fan of israels settlements and policies, but the debate today is about whether bds, singling out israel among all the countries in the world will help ring about peace and my position is that it will hurt the Peace Process. First, i have to correct a few facts that my friend laid out. He called israel a colonial settler state. Well, to be a colonial country, you have to be working on someones behalf. The jews who came to palestine to join their brothers and sisters who had been there for 3000 years, came from russia. Were they there on behalf of russia . Russia was engaged in pogroms, thats why they left. Were they there on behalf of Great Britain . They were fighting against Great Britain and Great British colonialism . Were they there on behalf of poland . Of course not. The word colonial does not fit an Indigenous Movement that started with people who lived in countries around the world, but who had relatives and coreligionists living in spot. When they did a Population Survey of jerusalem in 1840, they found a majority of residents of jerusalem were jewish residents who had lived. Here for centuries then came the holocaust. Jerusalem were jewish residents who live there for centuries and centuries. He was trying to prevent jews from escaping the ovens and coming to what was then palestine. He was named as a war criminal. After the war, he went to egypt where he and other former nazis helped to create the moment to try to destroy israel. This has a history. I think many people around the world thought that the best resolution would to be two states for two people. A jewish state, a nationstate for jewish people, and a nationstate for arab residents of palestine. In 1937, the Commission Proposed that and the jewish people in palestine agreed and accepted it. The palestinians rejected it. The head of the palestinian said, there is no such thing as a Palestinian People, we are just part of the greater arab nation. We do not want a state, we just want their not to be a jewish state. That happened in 1937. In 1948, when the United Nations divided the mandate of palestine into two areas. It wasnt a colonial or settler regime, the majority of the people were jews and the majority of the people on the land allocated to the arab states were arabs. Joined toinians engage in a genocidal war. There were refugees on both sides. Approximately 750,000 jews were forced out of countries they lived in for 3000 years. In babylon, called iraq, in persia, called iran, in aleppo where jews have lived for thousands of years. There was an exchange of population. 750,000 jews left and a move to israel where they were immediately accepted and became part of the population. Approximately the same number of palestinians left where they were not. There were put in refugee camps and made to have festering hatred. Then the israelis, once again, offered a two state solution. They offered it in 1967 after they won a defensive war. They said, land for peace, and the palestinian and arab countries issued the three famous nos. No negotiation, no peace, no recognition. In 2000 and 2001, president barak, aand ehud liberal, offered the palestinians 100 of the gaza, capital in jerusalem, and palestine responded with an intifada where 4000 people were killed. In 2005, the Prime Minister of israel abandon the entire gaza and took out all the settlers and took out all the occupation. A single israel he israeli is left. Offered the president and even better deal but they did not accept that deal either. It really does incentivizes the palestinians from making the kind of negotiated compromises that both israel and the palestinians would have to make. Why should the palestinians give up their right of return, or their claim to all of israel if they are going to win it by the bds movement . The leader of the bds movement does not want a two state solution. He wants there to be only an arab muslim state. He wants one state. He said there is no room for a nationstate for the jewish people. Bds is not directed at the occupation alone, except if you define the occupation to include tel aviv, and all the cities in israel. I think the bds movement makes it much, much harder to make peace. By the way, it is not really a moment. When you think of a moment, it is something that is universal. The feminist movement, the gay rights movement, the civil rights movement. Bds is a tactic. It is designed only against israel. It does not apply to all the other countries in the world which have horrible human rights movements and histories. In fact, it finds its origin in the nazi boycott of jewish in of jewish goods in the 1930s and the arab boycott that started in 1948, which applied to all jews, then it started interestingly enough, the current bds movement started just as israel was offering the palestinians a state. It has nothing to do with occupation. It really took full force as israel was abandoning gaza. When israel does good things and offers the palestinians a state, when it leaves the gaza, the response is to up the ante and have even more boycotts and demonstrations against israel. I dont for a moment doubt my brother cornels good faith. I think he really thinks that the bds movement is about the occupation. It isnt. It is about the right of israel to exist as a nation state for the jewish people. Zionism is a National Liberation movement of the jewish people. There are 40something muslim states. The palestinian state, which i hope gets established, would be a muslim state under sharia law. Israel does not have an official state religion. The jewish nature of the state is nationalistic. Christianity, islam are completely equal under israeli law. I would like to see the occupation end. I am hoping there will be some Movement Towards the ending. You need to sides to negotiate you need two sides to negotiate. I believe very strongly that the bds movement is a strong barrier to peace, a strong barrier to palestinian negotiation. I hope you will vote to reject the bds movement and accept the resolution that will bring about a negotiated two state solution with an end to the occupation and an and to the settlements, two states for two people. Thank you. [applause] eric dr. West, you have four minutes to rebuttal. Dr. West i want to respond to my dear brother first on an analytical level. Liberia with a settler colonial him state created by black him him him people who look like me, went there and subordinated Indigenous People and name the capital after james monroe. They did not do that on behalf of anybody. They did that on behalf of themselves because they, like jews in europe, were being trashed, demeaned and devalued. They exited and tried to find a place. The land that they landed on had some other people there. I would reject my dear brothers claim that every settler colonial enterprise is something on the half of another empire. It is true and our beloved puritans arrived. They were persecuted, but it is also true that there were extensors of the British Empire and we needed Thomas Jefferson and others to engage in revolutionary resistance against that kind of imperial domination. In terms of the claim that the targeting of israel, there is no doubt that there are at least 160 countries that are more vicious than the state of israel. There is no doubt about that. When we engaged in a boycott of south africa, and i was proud to be a part of that, to stand with brother Nelson Mandela, to stand him with other revolutionaries, we did not need to target every other repressive regime. We targeted south africa because it was wrong. We understood. Of course they have democratic practices in south africa, it was for vanilla brothers and sisters only. This notion that somehow those in the bds movement ought to be concerned about the vicious treatment of kurds and turkey, that is wrong. Concerned about kashmir under indian occupation, concerned about tibet under chinese occupation, we need to take stances on