Evenings event. A few housekeeping notes, you saw signs on the door when you came in. We are being recorded by cspan. They will be occasionally panning the audience. For those that dont want to be seen on cspan for whatever reason, please go over to the pecan room. You can see and hear the entire program over there. Our contractual agreement with our guests requires that no one record either audio or visual of these debates. Please respect that. And please make sure your cell phones are silent. The debate structure this evening will be as follows. I will have we will have an opening from each of our individual guests. We will then have rebuttal for four minutes. Each of them will then have an opportunity to engage one another in dialogue. We have cards for you in your program. If you have any questions, please prepare them because we always do want the audience to have the opportunity to participate. I would like for you all to start now and tear off the top of your slip and make your determination with regard to your position on the resolution which is the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement will help bring about the resolution of the palestinian conflict. Vote no. You will have another opportunity to vote after youve heard our participants. The winner obviously we are all the winners tonight being enlightened by these two intellectual giants of our time the winner of the debate will be determined by who sways the most votes. The proponent for the proposition is dr. Colnel west. Hes a professor of the practice of public philosophy at harvard university, and he holds the title as Professor Emeritus at princeton university. He has taught everywhere you would want to learn. Hes taught at Union Theological seminary, the yale university, harvard, of course, and the university of paris. He received his p. M. A. And ph. D. In philosophy from princeton. He graduated from Harvard College magna cum laude in three years. Hes extensive author. Sizz seminole books, one of the greatest books i have ever written ever read forgive me and i am privileged to have a copy, race matters. He lectures regularly in a vast variety of subjects. Were delighted to have dr. West here with us. We also have Professor Emeritus alan dershowitz, born in brooklyn, new york, the preeminent civil rights lawyer of our time. Hes a felix frankfurt professor of law at harvard law school. In addition to numerous books, hes written one recently. He would like all of you to read and digest called trumped up. How criminalization of political differences endangers our democracy. Ladies and gentlemen, please, a warm welcome for our guests today. [applause] it will be my job to keep time. I will do so carefully when you hear the chirp, it will be time for you to finish, not your thought, but your sentence. And then to yield the microphone. The topic to be discussed, be it resolved, the boycott and divestment and sanctions movement will help bring about the resolution of the israelipalestinian conflict. The proponent for eight minutes will be dr. West. Dr. West thank you so very uch. Thank you so very much. Let me say i am blessed to be here. I want to thank my brother who has created a salute to the moral dimension of the u. S. Republic. Why is that important . Its important precisely because of the ever graph of david, the first Prime Minister state of israel, march, 1949. June, 1963. He said, the state of israel proves itself not by its material wealth, not by its military might or its technical achievement but by its moral character and human values. One of the great contributions we have seen when our precious jewish brothers and sisters dealing with indescribable evil generated by hitler and others jumped out of the burning buildings of europe and landed in the middle east where there were both jews and arabs. Some of those arabs later called themselves palestinians. And the question would be, would they go with Albert Einstein and say let us coexist or would they go with others saying let us dominate . Very much like the founding of the United States and canada and new zealand and australia, all of them with democratic visions but also settler societies concerned with expanding and ending up dominating and subordinating people who were already there. So it is with this very, very fragile and precious experiment called the state of israel, on the one hand, how do we avoid any ugly antijewish prejudice, contempt, hate red and hatred, and at the same time how do we stay in contact with the humanity of our arab brothers and sisters . My question to you is do we really believe that our response to the occupation and colonization that the movement is concerned about, if it were a palestinian occupation of our precious jewish brothers and sisters, would we have the same response as opposed to the Israeli Occupation of palestinian brothers and sisters . What i love about this place is , thomas he words jefferson, but i saw a picture of Martin Luther king on the wall that brother harlan put there and his concern is what . That a palestinian baby has precisely the same significance and value as an israeli baby. Just like a white baby, a brown baby, a yellow baby, whatever. No Matter National identity, no matter sexual orientation, no matter what skin pigmentation, the moral and the spiritual challenge, my argument is b. D. S. In way perfect, having its own internal tensions, variety of different voices, the reason why i joined that movement is not because i dont have criticism of the movement. Of course i do. And my dear brother, omar, knows that. Hes the founder of the movement. He lives in ramallah. Its the last nonviolent effort to try to ensure that the moral character and the human values of a settler colonial enterprise that has involved leading expansion and toward in the language of our dear brother jimmy carter, a full fledge apart tied. Not because apartheid. Not because israel is in any way to be compared with the south african apar thide regime in all of its reforms, those palestinians Apartheid Regime in all of its reforms, but those palestinians are but those precious brothers and sisters in the west bank, in gaza. Bishop tutu says its worse than apartheid. Thats a moral issue. Brother alan and i goes back many years, he allows me to lecture on the source of law. We had some good times together at harvard law. We shall continue to have good times even though we have deep disagreements on this issue. Thats precisely what this temple of learning is all about based on brother harlans vision. But most importantly it has to deal with the future of not just the middle east but also the future of the United States given our intimate relations with the state of israel. What kind of moral character, what kind of human values are are we ng to promote, going to forget the very ugly realities in gaza and west bank . Always forget the second class citizenship of palestinians inside of the state of israel. And are we to forget that almost half a million refugees still labor outside of israel and outside of the occupied territories . Its very difficult in the United States to have a candid, robust, honest conversation about our relation to israel and about the complexity of our precious jewish brothers and sisters in israel and our precious palestinian brothers and sisters under those occupied territories, but it is a new day. One of the great taking place is especially among the young jewish brothers and sisters in the United States who have been critical of their elders. You have not told us the truth about 1948 or the 750,000 who are pushed out. You did not tell us about the killing of the villages were Young Abraham joshua. In april 1940 when he heard about the attack on innocent arab peoples and children. We come from the jewish people of ames and isaiah. With thes a christian love of any Palestinian Jew named jesus for years and. And the claim was what . Are you willing to treat the wirfin, the widow the wirfin, widow orphan, widow, black, white under Israeli Occupation in the same way . Do we have moral caliber . Do we have as this symbol is knowledge is fortitude . What is fortitude in the Classical Tradition . Courage and magna minute he. Gangsters can be courageous. Some of those not the soldiers were courageous. When you fuse courage and magnanimity, that is what we are talking about. Debate isat this about. One minute. I appreciate that. It will be a long minute. [laughter] dr. West i am just kidding. I simply asked you to a knowledge that we are approaching a new day, a new framework and a new paradigm in understanding the Israeli Palestinian challenge. For me, the most important issue will be, do we have this a socratic fortitude . The courage to question ourselves . To call into question some of the mendacious interpretations . Israel village in the jungle. No, no not at all. In the jungle where human beings had their own rich civilizations, just like when we arrived in the states and acted as if there was just awfuls and indians but no people. A lie. Where is our commitment to the truth, and the condition of truth is always, as brother Martin Luther king jr. Reminded us, the condition of truth is always to allow suffering to speak across race, class, gender and sexual orientation. Again, i want to think my dear brother harlan for bringing me back. I want to thank brother alan for allowing us to take off and engage in this intellectual struggle together as we smile and shed tears. We are both concerned about the suffering on both sides of this very, very delicate and ugly divide. [applause] dr. Dershowitz that was a very stirring and effective presentation. I am so glad to be heard today. It is very hard to have a serious conversation about the israel palestine conflict. I have been prevented from doing so at several universities by students who have tried to stop any kind of proisrael speakers. I myself have long favored a two state solution, i am not a particular fan of israels settlement of policies, but the debate today is whether or not bds, boycotting only israel and singling out for sanction will help bring about peace. My position is it will hurt the peace process. But i have to correct a few first, facts that my friend laid out. He called israel a colonial settler state. Well, to be a colonial country, you have to be working on someones behalf. The jews who came to palestine to join their brothers and sisters who had been there for 3000 years, came from russia. Were they there on behalf of russia . Were they there on behalf of Great Britain . They were fighting against Great Britain. Were they there on behalf of poland . Of course not. The word colonial does not fit an Indigenous Movement that started with people who lived in countries around the world, but who had relatives and coreligionists living in spot. When they did a Population Survey in 1840, they found a majority of residents in jerusalem were jewish residents who live there for centuries and centuries. Then came the holocaust and, of course, the holocaust was a bedded, tragically, by some of the leaders of the palestinian movement. They saying jerusalem collaborated with hitlers and was named as a war criminal. He tried to prevent jews from escaping the ovens and coming to what was then palestine. He was named as a war criminal. After the war he went to egypt where he and other former nazis helped to create the moment to try to destroy israel. This has a history. I think many people around the rooftop thought that the best resolution would to be two states for two people. A jewish state, a nationstate for jewish people, and a nationstate for arab residents of palestine. In 1937, the Commission Proposed that and the jewish people in palestine agreed and accepted it. The palestinians rejected it. The head of the palestinian s said, there is no such thing as a Palestinian People, we are just part of the greater arab nation. We do not want a state, we just want their not to be a jewish state. That happened in 1937. In 1948 when the United Nations divided the mandate of palestine into two areas, the jewish area had a majority of jews sought it was not a colonialist are settler regime. Those were allocated were jews in the majority allocated to the arab state or arrows. Arabs. Israel is accepted it, the palestinians joined by every other arab nation engaged in a genocidal war. There were refugees on both sides. Approximately 750,000 jews were forced out of countries they lived in for 3000 years. In babylon called iraq, in persia called iran, in a aleppo where jews have lived for thousands of years. There was an exchange of population. 750,000 jews left and a move to to israel, where they were immediately accepted and became part of the population. Approximately the same number of palestinians left for they were not. There were put in refugee camps and made to have festering hatred. Then the israelis, once again, offered a two state solution. They offered it in 1967 after they won a defensive war. They said land for peace and the palestinians and arab countries went there too. No negotiation, no peace, no recognition. In 2000 and 2001, president clinton offered the palestinians 100 of the gaza, capital in jerusalem and 4000 people were killed. In 2005, the Prime Minister of israel abandon the entire gaza and took out all the settlers and took all the occupation. Not a single is really was left. Not a single israeli was left. What happened . Gaza was used as a launching pad for rockets aimed at is really israeli schoolchildren on the way to school. In 2008, the Prime Minister offered the palestinians a better deal. Even more land in the western bank. The palestinians did not accept that deal. The idea of boycotting israel and casting all of the blame on israel really diss incentivizes disincentivizes the palestinians from making the kind of negotiated compromises that both israel and the palestinians while have to make. Why should the palestinians give up their right of return, or their claim to all of israel if they are going to win it by the bds movement. The leader of the bds movement twostateant a solution. He wants or to be only an arab muslim state. He wants only one state. He said there is no room for a nationstate for the jewish people. Bds is not directed at the occupation alone, except if you define the occupation to include tel aviv, and all the cities in israel. I think the bds movement makes it much, much harder to make peace. By the way, it is not really a moment. When you think of a moment, it is something that is universal. The feminist movement, the gay rights movement, the civil rights movement. Bds is a tactic. It is designed only against israel. It does not apply to all the other countries in the world, which have horrible human rights movements and histories. In fact, it finds its origin in the nazi boycott of jewish in the 1930s and the arab boycott 1948, which apply to all jews. Then it started interestingly enough, the current bds started as israel was starting as a state. It has nothing to do with occupation. It really took full force as israel was abandoning gaza. When israel does good thing and good things and offers the palestinians a state. When it leaves the gaza, the responses to up the ante and had even more boycotts and demonstrations against israel. I know for a wall man planet out of my brothers good faith. I think he really thinks that the bds moment is about the occupation. It is not. It is about them existing as the nationstate of the people. The zionism is a National Liberation movement of the jewish people. There are 40 something muslim states. The palestinian state, which i hope gets established, would be a muslim state under sharia law. Israel does not have a official state religion. The jewish nature of the state is naturalistic. Christianity, islam are completely a equal under israeli law. I would like to see the occupation end. I am hoping there will be some Movement Towards the ending. I believe very strongly that the bds movement is a strong barrier to peace. A strong barrier to palestinian negotiation. I hope you will vote to reject the bds movement and accept the resolution that will bring about a negotiated two state solution with an and to the occupation and an and to the settlements, two states for two people. Thank you, very much. [applause] eric dr. West you have four minutes to rebuttal. Dr. West i want to respond to my dear brother first on an analytical level. Liberia with a settler colonial state created by black people who look like me, went there and subordinated Indigenous People and name the capital after james monroe. They did not do that on behalf of anybody. They did that on behalf of themselves because they, like jews in europe, were being trashed, demeaned and devalued. They exited and tried to find a place. The land that they landed on had some other people there. I would reject my dear brothers s claim that every settlor colonial enterprise is something on the half of another empire. It is true and our beloved puritans arrived. They were persecuted, but it is also true that there were extensors of the British Empire and we needed Thomas Jefferson and others to engage in revolutionary resistance against that kind of imperial domination. In terms of the claim that the targeting of israel, there is no doubt that there are at least 160 countries that are more vicious than the state of israel. There is no doubt about that. But when we engaged in a boycott of south africa, and i was proud to be a part of that, to stand with brother Nelson Mandela, to stand with them we did not need to target every other repressive regime. We targeted south africa because it was wrong. We understood. Of course they have democratic practices in south africa, it was for vanilla brothers and sisters only. This notion that somehow those in the bds movement ought to be concerned about the vicious treatment of kurds and turkey, that is wrong. Concerned about kashmir under indian occupation, concerned about tibet under chinese occupation, we need to take stances on each and every one of those, no doubt. I actually support boycotts in places. Just recently we had boycotts and sanctions against faith that were mistreating our gays, lesbians and trans fellow citizens. We do not need to target every state. Particular states are doing such actions. One, settler Colonial Enterprises are always on the half of somebody else. Two, it is quite possible to maintain our moral and spiritual integrity as still tied to a particular state. I think for the United States, it and this is a point that brother johnson makes with quite power, that there is the moral character of the state of israel can be affected by courageous and loving american citizens. Not just our precious jewish citizens in america, all american citizens, given the 3 billion or more that go directly to aid for israel. We do have something at stake, morally, spiritually, as well as financially. That is not the case. 30 seconds. That is not the case for other states at all. I would want you to think very seriously about the words of my dear brother alan dershowitz. If i could feel the moral passion that he has for the plight of the jewish people that were there for 2000 years under levels of tax and persecution. There are many ways unprecedented that it is thrilled. It is possible to stay in contact with those realities and still support the last nonviolent attempt to ensure that palestinians, that arabs time. [applause] dr. Dershowitz so we have a major point of agreement, that there are least 160 countries in the world with human right records far more worse than israel. The question arises, why would you support a moment, or a it that singles out only a nationstate of the jewish people . A nationstate of people who have always been singled out to special persecution and special attacks. What message does it send when you acknowledge that there are 160 violators of human rights and you are going after only one country, and that country happened to be the nationstate of the jewish people, which is often the palestinian state on five different stages. Let me tell you a story. A story that i think cornell and i will agree with. He did not like blacks, jews, gays, catholics. One day he issued a proclamation saying we have to cut down the number of jews because jews cheat. The great judge wrote him a letter and said nonjews cheat too. He said you are changing the subject now, we are talking only about jews. You cannot top only about jews when you are dealing with human rights violations, and you cannot talk only about the nationstate of the jewish people. If we were debating a different subject, a real bds movement, which is listed every country in the world, worst human rights record and least victims to seek address in the courts or in the media, israel would be about 198 on a list of 212 countries. Israel has a far better human rights record than any country in the middle east, any country in asia and almost in any country in the world. In fact, i challenge i want to give them time to challenge him to name any country in the world in history faced with threats similar to those faced by israel, external and internal that has had a better record of human rights, a higher compliance with the rule of law and more concerned with the rights of civilians who are being used as human shields by people on the other side. Colonel richard is the head of native forces. He said no country in the world takes more concerned to protect civilian enemies, and has fewer civilian casualties in proportion to the number of terrorists. When you target one of the best countries in the world for the worst of sanctions, what you are doing is not only applying a double standard, but you are saying to be other countries in the world, we do not care about you. We will focus on israel so that you can have the genocide in rwanda, cambodia because the world is not focused on those countries. You cannot get today a demonstration on a campus against syria. You cannot get a demonstration against the use of poison gas against every demonstration is against the nationstate of the jewish people. There is a word for that. When you single out only the nationstate of the jewish people for a sanction, there is a word for that and is called antisemitism. [applause] eric we will now have an opportunity for each of you to cross examine the other. Dr. West, i will invite you to start with a distinct question that will be followed by the commenced release answer. You may follow up with questions through your four minutes. Would you take the microphone, please . Dr. West absolutely. My dear brother alan you agree that anytime we see crime in any country about a be resisted, is that right . Dr. Dershowitz yes. Dr. West so when United States was founded it had a magnificent record on human rights except when it came to black people. Dr. Dershowitz and indians. Dr. West those were crimes against humanity. I consider is really occupation a crime against humanity. Not a matter of comparison. My question is this. Do you think that you somehow are providing a rationalization for a crime against humanity by accenting other crimes in other places and other countries in the same way the abolitionists were told, how come you are targeting the United States, it is a great beacon of liberty, it is the great city on the hill. You treat black people like they got roaches. You treat Indigenous People like they do not exist. Why not talk about other nations . How do you deal with that question . Dr. Dershowitz there is one of the enormous dispositive difference. Is really offered to an occupation of four separate occasions. The palestinian leadership has never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. A have had so many opportunities. I thought in the antiapartheid struggle. I represented Nelson Mandela. Was Nelson Mandela ever offered an opportunity to end apartheid . No, not until heat obviously not until he obviously got out of prison. The palestinians over and over again have been offered to states for two people. End of the occupation, the settlement, that is not a crime against humanity when there is an opportunity to end it. The reason israel has a military operation is because it saw what happened in gaza. When and in the military operation in gaza, and the response was the children are stay wrote. Where president obama went and said, if my children were exposed to rockets, i would hope that i could do everything in my power to stop that and i hope and expect israel will do everything to stop that. No, i think that israel is not committing crimes against humanity, it is defending itself and protecting itself. And, by focusing only on israel, and giving a pass to all of the crimes that are committed against humanity essentially we are facilitating those crimes. [applause] eric followup question. Dr. West i think you wedding acknowledge that the particular plans that were rejected by palestinian leadership had little to do with the fullscale ending of occupational colonization. Why, because the settlements continued anyway. If you go back to the 1980s, how many now, a halfmillion precious israelis engaged in settlements on the land of somebody else. A lot of that has to do with because the United States turned its back. Had a lot to do with aipac. It had a lot to do with organized conservative jewish brothers and sisters bringing tremendous pressure to bear on the u. S. Government. The settlement did not stop, even given the offer. We talk about the rejectionism of the palestinian leadership you know i am a radical democrat deep. I will not offer authoritarian leadership. I do not care what color they are very when it comes to acknowledging the facts you cannot say that israel has ever offered palestinians full scale ending of occupation without military control of the hair, without control of what goes in and out of those borders. You do not have a state or a palestinian state if you have no control over your air and over what comes in and out of your borders. Nelson mandela rejected that option of the apartheid deletes. Elites. In that sense, we have deep factual disagreements. Eric pose a question. Dr. West what do you think about that . [laughter] dr. Dershowitz let me tell you what i think about it. So, um, i will do name dropping. I was at a dinner recently with a president who i am a friend of and he liked me and i like him. We have a very good relationship. Obviously the discussion was how to come up with a compromise resolution. He acknowledged, in front of me and other people and said it publicly that of course for the first two years palestinians have to be a demilitarized state because right now there are so many terrorist groups. Operating the only within gaza, gaza, but theonly west bank as well. You cannot immediately give a palestinian state an air force, a navy, total control overtakes space. Air it takes time. When the United States defeated the germans on the japanese at the end of world war ii, the germans and japanese were not allowed to have an army. There were allowed at the end of first world war, that was a great lesson after the versailles tree. France and england allowed germany to rearm. By 1935 germany was the most powerful nation in the history of the world up to that point. We saw what they did with that power. So, compromises are necessary. If there were to be a peaceful resolution, and i work hard with a boss to try to bring about that peaceful resolution, if there were to be a peaceful resolution there would be agreements. There would be land swaps so that israel would maintain control over cities like which are right on the outskirts of jerusalem. In exchange for that, they would give acre for acre land in what is called the triangle, which is predominately arab in population. That would be a winwin for everybody. You need negotiations. You need compromise. You need to sit down and not for an and extort, which is what the bds tactic does. You certainly do not need having a system that simply singles out one country of the universal condemnation. If you look at the you and today, there is one place in the world that is the focus of you and resolutions. That is israel. Most recently the u. N. Voted that the western wall was illegally occupied territory. At the hebrew university, the jewish quarter, were jews have where jews have lived continuously since 3000 years ago are illegally occupied territory. We simply have to have a single standard of human rights, a single standard of morality. You cannot have a double standard, particularly against a nation state of the jewish people. You mention the United States does help israel and israel helps the United States. They make exchanges. That would never justify why somebody from Great Britain would support the bds movement, why somebody from france would. Those countries do not support israel. The bds movement transcends america and applies all through europe and applies the application of a double standard to israel. That is very wrong and will never be the basis for a peaceful resolution. Eric i am going to invite you now to make a couple of inquire s of dr. West. I will yield my time to you gentlemen. [laughter] dr. Dershowitz no, i want to hear your question. I love answering questions by judges. [audience ahhh] dr. Dershowitz can you face the name a country faced with the one ascomparable to rockets from gaza, terror tunnels, the use of human shields, 100,000 rockets aimed at israel, a Nuclear Power in iran . The president of iran said if we develop a nuclear bomb and bomb tel aviv, that is the end of the jewish state. Even if they bomb tehran and killed 20 million muslims that will have impact on iran. It will be a tradeoff. When you are facing those threats comment name a country in the world that has had a better commitment to the rule of the, higher concern for enemy, civilians, and a better record of human rights. I do not defend israel on everything it does. Israel gets a b on human rights. Name a country faced with threats to have a better record. Dr. West i think one of the lowest moments in the history of this country was when over 500 palestinian babies were killed and not one major voice of spoke on theficial half of the suffering of those families. Dr. Dershowitz i did. Dr. West i did not hear it, brother. I wasnt listening enough. I was talking about elected officials. I dont know what you have been elected to lately, but that is good. I wish you were stronger. My voice was strong too, i am not elected in that sense. Dr. Dershowitz i complain not only about the is really complaints, but the use of the palestinians and using children as human shields. Dr. West but the thing is, israel has the sixth biggest military, it is a Major Military power with nuclear arms. Dr. Dershowitz because it needs it. Dr. West we can argue if it needs it or not, the question is, it has that kind of status and power. To bring it to bear on those babies and we cannot muster a major wave of righteous indignation. Dr. Dershowitz deepika killed do you think it killed babies deliberately . Dr. West they knew babies were being killed in a continued and they kept doing it. In the last 14 years, two palestinian children have been killed every week. Dr. Dershowitz what would you do if you are the head of the Israeli Government and rockets were being sent out your schools . There are three options. One, you let the rockets continue. Two, you try to destroy the rockets from the air. Three, you have a ground invasion. What would you do if you were the head of the government and the rockets were being sent in killing your children and aimed at your schools and terrorist attacks were being directed at cafeterias in schools, pizza parlors and other places . You dont talk about the israeli children. They are targeted as civilians, which israel never targeted civilian. Dr. West they may not target, but they sure end up killing a lot of them. Dr. Dershowitz fewer than the United States, fewer than Great Britain. Dr. West we can have a debate on that. Barack obama would be my major object of criticism. Barak had over 500 drone strikes. They called george bush a war criminal, they never called obama did. I did, but nobody else did. I try to be morally consistent. We were killing innocent people to. Im concerned about people in tel aviv, jewish people in tel aviv. If i was netanyahu i would be , suicidal. [laughter] dr. Dershowitz that is not an option. Dr. West if i can reach that point and still build on Martin Luther king jr. I would engage in a whole different way of conceiving of a process that we would be concerned with the decolonization. We would be concerned with ending occupation. We would be concerned with ensuring that we want palestinian brothers and sisters to note that we do care and we better quit telling innocent folks. Dr. Dershowitz what would you do in the meantime, while the process was going on and rockets were hitting school buses and hospitals and cafeterias . Would you simply sit back and take gandhi stance . We will die, or would you fight back . And if you fall back, how would you do it when the terrorists use children as human shields . I put a great cartoon on the cover of one of my books. It had an israeli soldier standing in front of a they be carriage, protecting the baby carriage with his life, then it had a Palestinian Terrorist to any behind the baby carriage, allowing the baby carriage to protect his life. How do you respond to that . Dr. West that was not the case for over 500,000 babies. Not at all. Lets look at it this way. We know the history of Jewish Resistance against the british. There is variety of different forms of resistance of all people against forms of oppression. If we are concerned about calling into questions are very conditions under which these people come to such desperate conclusions, that is where we have to get when it comes to the piece prospect. You cannot get partitioning slices of x and y and not come to terms with the fundamental roots of it. When you ask me what i would do if i was mason yahoo , that is like asking what i would do a five donald trump. Im not them, i am my moms child. If i am donald trump. Im not them, i am my moms child. Im concerned with the moral and spiritual dimensions of whatever life, nation, civilization that i am a part of. Dr. Dershowitz i do not accept that. Eric it is professor dershowitz questions. Dr. Dershowitz lets take it on your terms. You want to end the socalled settler regime. Dr. West it is not socalled, it is a fact. Dr. Dershowitz how would you do it, would you make israel commit politicized, give up its status as a nationstate. The only nation state of the jewish people and create yet another arab muslim state under sharia law . That was the palestinian constitution. Said sharia law will dominate in palestine. Tell me what you would do to bring about a peaceful resolution that, so far, nobody else has thought of . Dr. West i would say that im not god, i am not messiah, i have one voice, one life to live. I would say, going back to 1948, lets first told the truth about how israel as a state came into existence. The sensitivity of coming out of europe, looking at uganda, not going there, looking at the middle east, going there and having to come to terms with all of these people already there. The trajectory of the voices. Dr. Dershowitz i dont get it, tell me what you would do. Dr. West i tell you good place to start is here. Turn the commentary magazine to may 1, 1940 eight when she wrote her powerful essay to save the jewish homeland. She said if israel does not watch out, it is going to lose its moral and spiritual character. He was a powerful speaker who is right about something and wrong about public. What she did with her personal life. I and not going to allow him to put her down like that. That is my sister. Dr. Dershowitz i want to hear also. I will talk about Gertrude Stein that way. A number of people. Eric let me turn your question. Dr. West i got a be true to clifton and irene. Eric let me turn the question back to professor dershowitz. And then we will take an audience question. Assuming that there is a continued rejection by the palestinians of the twostate e solution and you reject the notion of the boycott, what is the systemic project that you would advocate would lead to the revolution of the israeli . Dr. Dershowitz name dropping. I was with the Prime Minister a month before he had his stroke, which led to his death. At that point he was advocating and i supported it. Unilateral withdraw by israel. By the way, there was no control over the entry exhibit until the rocket started. It couldve been on the mediterranean if they had accepted european offers to build institutions and build schools. Instead they took all the money and build tunnels and rockets. Built terror tunnels and rockets. So, he wanted to unilaterally leave the west bank, at least major portions of the west bank. That is no longer feasible in light of what happened in gaza. The last thing the palestinians want is for israel simply to leave because it would take over from the Palestinian Authority the way they took over from gaza. It is very, very complicated. It requires a very detailed negotiated peace it requires assistance of the United States and a Marshall Plan from the air countries, the emirates on the gulf states to build palestine into west germany. When i send my students to israel i send them to ramallah because it is a vehicle city without a single israeli soldier or policeman. It shows what could be done if there were a will to have a two state solution. I am part of an Investment Fund that invests money only in startups that have palestinian and is really investors. It is headquartered in ramallah. There are things going on that are wonderful. The life of the typical palestinian in ramallah is excellent. The life of a palestinian in gaza is horrible, but it is a selfinflicted wound. The took the money and used it for rockets and rocket tunnels. I was in the tunnel. Could you imagine living one hundred yards away and having your school 100 yards away from a terror tunnel with 25 terrorist coming up in the middle of the night and killed the students of the school. That is what israel has to cope with. It is more complicated than my brother suggests. Einstein will not solve this problem. None of this brilliant irritations will solve these problems. Problems will be solved by compromised negotiations and a will to peace. Palestinians couldve had a stay had a state in 1937, 1948 and 1968. 2001, 2005, 2008 they said no. It is time for the palestinians to come to the table. You talked about my mother so i will end with my mothers favorite story. [laughter] dr. Dershowitz my mothers favorite story was about an old jewish man who was 79 years old. Every day until his 80th birthday he prayed to god and said he has prayed all his life. He said before he turned 80 a want to win the new york lottery. He prays any praise any praised and on his 80th birthday it does not happen. He turns to god and said god, why, i tried so hard, i prayed all the time. A voice from heaven says, help me out a little, buy a ticket. [laughter] dr. Dershowitz the palestinian leadership has not bought a ticket. They have not done what they need to do to get a state they have to compromise. The bds tactic disincentive eyes is them from compromising. That is why am strongly opposed to its. [applause] eric let me pose the same question to dr. West, assuming that without a huge influx, a huge emphasis on the boycott of israel, i would suggest also a secondary boycott. Assuming that as not succeeded, and is not going to succeed, what should the next that the . Step be . Dr. West i think a lot of the palestinians have not bought a ticket because they think the lottery is owned by the government. It is very different in the new york lottery. A lot of corruption in new york but that lottery is fairness. That has not been the case. Dr. Dershowitz Whitey Bulger won the boston lottery. [laughter] eric we have all these injections here, brother. Dr. West i think the crucial thing is, is that this was in 2016 there was a poll taken , among Jewish High School students in israel and 60 said 50 said they did not believe their fellow arabs in israel had the right to vote. That is a rightwing sensibility led by a host of others that is reinforcing ugly forms of tribalism. The effect opposite is the case in the United States. You get young jewish brothers and sisters saying their concern about the dimensions of israel. Youre getting not just divisions and separation, you are getting in and delays escalating reactionary tribalism that has taken over more and more in the state of israel, which means what . If you are concerned about peace, it is not going to come within israel, just like in south africa. If you are concerned about peace it would not come within south africa. There has to be International Forces. I agree with my dear brother allen. The International Forces must be forces that do have a very intense sensitivity in terms of anti, antijewish hatred, but the antisemitism must never be an excuse to rationalize jewish domination of the jews, jewish marginalization, jewish intellectuals. Trump has been called an antisemitic. He is not antisemitic, he just disagrees with alan. Dr. Dershowitz he was my Camp Counselor in 1948. Dr. West you just had a disagreement. You have to keep track of the antisemitic elements, but you cannot use that as a way of trumping. I cannot use that anymore. [laughter] dr. West foreclosing dialogue. That is a very delicate tightrope to watch. If your concern about the legacy of amos and isaiah and Martin Luther king and dorothy day, and i am an arab. If we are really concerned about that, we will have to take knowledge it is a new day. I believe that my dear brother alan is still caught within the old framework. That framework is coming to an end. That is one in which we hope we have a love affair with the jewish people, a love affair with the Palestinian People and fundamentally believe that both people, myself as a christian made in the image of god to serve as much attention and sensitivity in their plight. Eric we have got a little bit longer than i planned. My thought and interaction between these two titans was worth not having more audience participation. I hope you all agree. We have time now for two closing arguments and they will be six minutes a piece. Dr. West, the floor is yours. Dr. West im willing to give my time to the audience, i am a democrat. Ill give my time to these magnificent and intelligent folk. I come from the people that say lift every voice. Is that fair enough, alan . Is that all right, judge . Eric the first question, as long as the landgrab continues throughout settlements, will bds have any effect whatsoever . Dr. West i think, indeed. One of the reasons why bds has been able to escalate around the world to the degree that it has is that the deeply rightwing government in israel reinforces their power because of their refusal to end its settlements. This is true for the u. S. Government, barack obama had to wrestle with this in so many ways. I do believe it will escalate. The question will be ensuring that bds has more than spiritual character. Dr. Dershowitz there are two reasons why it has moved to the right. One, it is when he turned on the peace offer, it really damage the Peace Movement in israel. It ended up hurting palestinians. Bill clinton called it a crime. The prince of saudi arabia called it a crime against the Palestinian People turning down the generous offer. That hurt the Peace Movement. The other thing that moved israel slightly to the left was bringing one Million People from the forever former soviet union. When you bring them in, do not expect them to become radical leftists overnight. They will be conservatives. That is changing. Their children are becoming much more progressive and much more willing to take chances for peace. I agree with you. I think we need movement on both sides, and i am part of that. I go to israel every year. I talked to the people there i tried very hard to push them toward resolution. Right now, israel has put on the table for many years these kinds of peace offers with land swaps that would end, essentially, the settlements and would allow the palestinians to have enormous amounts of land. That is a basis for a twostate solution. Do we agree that a twostate solution is the right result . Dr. West wonderful question. This is a situation that, in innciple, i do not believe any state that gives a religion, group, or race an advantage. I am committed as a christian to a Secular Society and secular state where there are equal rights across the board. Dr. Dershowitz why start with israel . Dr. West it starts with any state. Dr. Dershowitz why not palestine . Dr. West if a jewish sister once to marry a nonjewish brother, she cannot marry him. Dr. Dershowitz and we fight against that. Dr. West the secular state doesnt allow that. Black and white folk get married with legal rights in 1967 because of our white supremacist tradition. Dr. Dershowitz and now any marriage that is valid anywhere in the world is now valid. Dr. West im talking within israel. Dr. Dershowitz there was a terrible mistake in 1948 by handing over to many of the too many of the personal functions. We, who are secular jews, are fighting hard against that. Frankly, that is nobodys business but the israelis and the jews. We are fighting our own battle there. It is much worse in the Palestinian Authority. You get killed if you marry someone who is a nonmuslim. In israel, you have to go to cyprus, your marriage is valid and it is a pain in the neck but you do not get murdered or thrown off a roof if you are a gay in israel. You become a general in the army. Gay rights in israel is validated. Yet, we have this concept. Where people argue dr. West my question about the one state solution was asked. We do not want to go on and on about the system. Dr. Dershowitz you want to end the nationstate of the jewish dershowitz no, in principle, i support secular state in this instance. But you are a man of principle. Dr. West yes i am. That is exactly right. No, because i do not believe any naive challenge from principle isnt to practice them and i understand history. What are the live options now . The live options now are a twostate solution, but one that has nothing to do with the smaller partitions. When you think of 82state solution in which there is free full freedom for both people and both respecting the rights and liberties under that. Given the principles of it, i am highly suspicious of any state that tips and one direction in relation to a race or religion. Eric like arab states . Dr. West all of them in question. Eric we will get to israel. Dr. West you are rationalizing again. Go to minneapolis, they allowed you to get married in minneapolis and then come back to dallas and live on the down low. We are talking about principle across the board. [indiscernible] eric we will now have our closing arguments. Dr. West, you have four minutes. Dr. West i am so glad that my dear brother was able to move on the terrain of moral because as a lawyer, from brooklyn, yale law, harvard law professor said, he likes toship, keep it legalistic. If you keep it legalistic, you can talk about the rejection, leadership from x to y but when we elevate through the moral terrain, and that is very important because you know there has been a whole host of laws around the world, that were as a moral us could be. Slavery was legal. Jim crow was legal, a home host whole host of laws that need to be called into question. The fact we get engaged at this moral level is important. Whichever way you vote, i simply want to say that i am so glad that we were allowed to have this public dialogue and cspan could hear it around the country and world to let them know there are voices in the midst of this country that have a moral concern with palestinians, israelis, jewish and palestinians, but also africans, asians, so that at least we are making some effort to keep alive the best of the voices that you see on these walls because they were courageous. They were not scared from various institutions when they tried to bring pressure to bear. They stood based on something grander than themselves. That is one way of paying to ribute to them. Eric thank you, very much. Thank you. [applause] dr. Dershowitz my opposition is moral, practical, and legal. A, it is completely illegal, refusing to sell or buy a product from israeli is no different than a baker who will not sell a cake to a gay couple who wants to get married or big ot who will not rent an apartment to an africanamerican. There is no difference between boycotting by the way, the tactic is not only apply to israelis but me. Just yesterday, i was invited to debate barghouti im sorry, to debate roger waters and he backed out. Barghouti backed out. We were both invited to debate at the oxford union. They will not debate me because i am a jew who supports israel. I am subject, therefore, to the Boycott Movement. Who suffers from the Boycott Movement . You all do. If they are boycotted, they will not be able to contribute to the world what they have, in terms of curing diseases, high technology, no country in 70 years has contributed more to the world per capita than israel. The Boycott Movement to it and and end all that. It would end dialogue and bringing palestinian and israeli children together. It is so deeply immoral. It is so deeply illegal. Most of all, it will destroy any realistic effort at peace. I want to quote the new york times, who is strongly critical of israel, saying criticizing israel is not. Antisemitic and saying so is vile. I agree with that. It is important to criticize israel and america and every country. Singling out israel for a program in International Sections is antisemitic and not saying so is dishonest. It does not mean that whatever israel does is right or just. We have to continue to have paid nuanced debate. Bds is not new ones it is a it is not nuanced. It is a sledgehammer. It punishes the wrong people. It punishes arabs who work. It punishes israeli leftists, who work day and night to bring peace. It is collective punishment. The brands all israelis and jews, like me, as arius and is as subject to dissemination. I am glad we elevated this to a moral level as i rest my case on the moral opposition to an immoral tactic. Thank you. [applause] [laughter] very good. Eric i think i speak or all of us when i thank you both for an enlightened and magnificent discussion of a very complex issue. It is now your time. We will hear your voice. You have an opportunity to vote one more time. Your ballotspass to the end and we will tally them and determine who swayed more. I would like another round of applause for professor dershowitz and dr. West and our benefactor. Thank you very much. [applause] here ontime tonight cspan. A debate on campus free speech with First Amendment scholars and authors from around the country. A university of chicago law professor outlines the issues in tonights event. Traditional liberals are divided now on this question about free speech on campus. There are those liberals who see themselves to seek issues of equality and justice. They feel that that should override the liberal tradition of free speech. In the other hand you have liberals who see the tradition of free speech and the commitment to free speech as an essential importance, given our history. It is restricted historically by people in power and who do not trust anyone who have the power to tell you what point you to be expels. On the conservative side, on almost every episode in american history, efforts of suppression been driven by political observers. Whether in the academic realm, early whether the early 19th century about religious moralism and josh or darwinism, for the 20th century with punishing factory members and students. Were anyone who criticize the war criticized the draft could be thrown out. It has always been conservatives who have been on the side of restricting free speech. Even on the Larger National community, with the exceptings speech, i find it a bit annoying, to be honest, that all these republican legislators are sudden suddenly champing speech championing free and the people not being silence are ann coulter and milo. It is not so much the freedom of free speech but what is being born. That is what bothers me. Is there a principal in terms of what this is all about. Event was cohosted by the National Constitution center, the Federalist Society and the american constitution society. See the entire debate on campus free speech with First Amendment scholars and authors from around tonight, 8 00 eastern here on cspan. This week on q a, sciencer of political at Military College in vermont. She talks about reaction of middlebury students. Dr. Murray
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