Transcripts For CSPAN Brookings Institution Discussion On Th

Thank you for joining us both here in washington and on cspan. Of middle eastr policy here at the brookings institution. On behalf of the center of the brookings institution, i want to welcome you. We have a special event. We have a full house. This is not the first event in washington on this general topic. I think its a fair question to ask why. Why are we still on the murder of one individual . Thats a topic that will come up in our discussion today, of course. Two points are worth pointing out. First, brookings has a quaint notion that facts matter. We still believe that. Its controversial, but we do. We also think norms might matter or should matter. That is more open for debate on which norms and when. In that sense, i couldnt think of a better event to shed light on some of the facts of what became a very large, very important event. Jamal khashoggi was known to many people in washington and was, in this building many times and was in this building many times. He was known to people here and abroad. His murder, in that sense, drew more attention than others attending. His murder also had implications for International Law, for interNational Norms, and for residents of the United States for American Foreign policy. With that, im delighted we can host this event today. And, on short notice, im grateful for the full house. This is particularly important because we have a special guest and we are honored to have her here with us. Dr. Agnes callamard who is the u. N. Special reppo tour on exit extrajudicial summary. Thank you so much for joining us, doctor. Shes a citizen of france and has a distinguished career in human rights, in the United Nations, and in academia. Shes is the director of the Columbia University Global Freedom of expression, an initiative seeking international and National Norms and to define and protect freedom of expressio and interconnected global community. She worked as advisor to the president of the university. She previously had many years and civil organizations dealing with civil rights and freedom of expression. She was director of article 19, a National Human Rights Organization promoting human expression. She found an led humanitarian accountability partnership. And she formally works in Amnesty International as well, very Important Roles. In her role as special reppo tour, we discuss what is happening. We are delighted to have her and look forward to her comments. Im also joined by 2 friends and colleagues. Discussion will be jamar clark this. Shes done a lot of work on democracy promotion. Shes alsoary written on this topic exactly on the question of u. S. Army relations and u. S. Relations with middle east powers broadly. We are also joined by my former boss, a nonresident senior fellow with us and formally the Foreign Policy program and formally the acting Vice President of our program. Hes the chief engagement officer at world justice projects in washington. From april 2008 to 19, he was a senior fellow with us, and the inaugural fellow of our robert Dos Foundation fellowship in berlin. He previously worked in the white house and pentagon. Brookings worked on a wide variety of issues relating to human rights, diplomacy, and rise of democracy. Hes the author of five rising democracies in the state of international liberal order, which i highly recommend as well. Without further ado, i would like to invite dr. Agnes callamard to the stage. [applause] dr. Callamard good afternoon. Thank you for the kind words and introduction. Its a pleasure for me to be here today. And, to share with you, quickly, some of the findings and conclusions related to my investigation, and then i hope we can have a conversation. I think you have, over the last week, been bombarded with information about the killing of mr. Khashoggi and what have pursued and i think its important to highlight a few dimensions of it. The killing of mr. Khashoggi was an extraordinary event. Unfortunately, a fairly common event. Its common because many journalists and human rights defenders around the world are the object of targets of killings, intentional killings. Indeed theres enough evidence to highlight the fact that those killings are not decreasing, but are increasing, in spite of many efforts to stop them. There is also evidence that those killings are usually met with impunity. It is also an extraordinary killing because of the nature and circumstances of the execution of mr. Khashoggi. Its a brazen act and an active state. My investigation sought to determine whether or not ash to to determine whether or not they are aware of states or sponsor before the killing. To determine whether or not they were aware of states or sponsor before the killing. As you know, the state of saudi arabia, as put forward, the theory that the killing was conducted by rogue officials, and therefore, they have done everything they had to do to respond to the killing. I took their theory seriously, and to heart. I looked at the evidence at my disposal in terms of the commission of the crime, in terms of the investigation of the crime, and in terms of the prosecution of the crime. My only the only conclusion i could reach with the evidence is that the state of saudi arabia is responsible for the killing. Theres a great deal of International Standard and prudence on what it means for a state to be responsible for a violation, including a killing. I did not come up with my own theory in terms of distinguishing between a rogue act and a state act. I relied extensively on what had been done and written, including by the International Law commission. Basically, the definition of a state act is an act conducted by state officials using states means and resources. The killing of mr. Khashoggi met all of the characteristics of a state killing. It was done by 15 representatives of the state, all of whom, with one exception, worked for the state security agencies. It was planned, at least 48 hours, and probably earlier than that. It was planned from riyadh. The killing itself was premeditated at least 24 hours before the killing, according to various information i was able to gather. The state representatives, state agents that conducted the execution, 15 of them did that by doing means of states means. Eight of them traveled using a private jet with diplomatic clearance. Two of them used a diplomatic passport. The killing took place in a consulate. The consulate itself used its power to ensure there were no witnesses on the floor where the killing took place. After the killing, someone had planned to behave as if it was also d show the that mr. Show be that also required identification. All of the dimensions of the execution of the crime meet the definition of a state killing. State agents, state means, state resources. There was nothing private. There was nothing personal about the execution of the crime. That is for the execution. In addition to that, i also looked at the investigation and prosecution. Under interNational Human rights law, failure to investigate effectively and promptly in good faith, there are number of other standards, a killing amounts to a violation of the right to life. I did consider the steps taken by saudi arabia to investigate the killing of mr. Khashoggi. I found out that they had a team of 17 people that arrived in turkey on the sixth of october and remained in turkey until past the 15th. During that period, they were in the crime scene on their own, without any witnesses and without the turkish investigators. Theres enough evidence to conclude that, while they may have investigated what happened there, they also took the opportunity of their presence in the crime scene, to clean it. Making it impossible for the turkish investigators finally granted access on the 15th and on the 17th together any kind of material evidence related to the killing. In addition to that, the turkish investigators were only granted six hours in the crime scene itself, which was the consulate. And, a few more hours in the residence two days later. They also had to investigate all of the cause. The investigation, in my opinion, and based on International Standards related to what an investigation should look like, based on those standards, there is no way i can conclude the investigation conducted by saudi arabia was done effectively, done good faith, and allowed for international cooperation. That investigation could only have been the type of investigation could only have been conducted and given the public statements made at the time. That investigation was done with the saudi Government Authority behind it. They are the link between the investigation and state is direct. Therefore, reinforcing the notion the execution of the killing and what happened afterwards is a state act. When i looked at the prosecution of the crimes, what i did find was, also, iran shows weakness of limitations and abuses as for interNational Human rights law. Just to give you a few examples, the prosecutor identified, and one of his statements, a range of people responsible for the killing. He even named one of them as having incited the team before he left, having told them bring back mr. Khashoggi, a national threat. That individual has not been charged and is not part of the 11 people on trial. As you know, the trial is held behind closed doors. The saudi authorities are continuing to hide behind the charades that this is a domestic matter, even though everything about the killing of mr. Khashoggi makes it an International Crime. The killing itself is a violation of interNational Human rights law and the circumstances of the killings mean saudi arabia violated the Vienna Convention on consumer relations, and the u. N. Charter related to the use of force extraterritorially for peace. At times of peace. This also amounted to an active act of torture, which is granted on the treaty and constituted and enforced his thatrance to the extent the remains of his body have not been located. Everything about the killing of mr. Khashoggi makes it an International Crime, which should attract international attention, scrutiny, and in my international and investigation and universal jurisdiction. These are the findings of the trial of the killing of mr. Khashoggi. An International Crime, a brazen act, a state crime for which the state is responsible. Once we have determined state responsibilities, the next step should be, what does that mean . Who is responsible for the killing . As i put in my reports, my inquiry is on interNational Human rights law, which means focusing quite largely on the responsibilities of the state. However, i did look at the evidence to determine what should be the logical next step. The logical next step for me is to identify individual liability in relationship to the killing, particularly within the chain of command. The 11 people on trial at the moment are at the lowest level. Yes, five of them were in the room at the time of the killing, so they are responsible for the killing, but the trial has failed, and is failing so far, to tackle the chain of command, which, in a very centralized state as that of saudi arabia, does require to look at the fairly high level, in my opinion. In the report, i highlight some of the evidence at my disposal, which indicates more work needs to be done to investigate the liability of the crown prince and of his advisor. It is a case of the advisor, the prosecutor himself has already admitted his responsibility for the crime. It is a crime under International Law, yet he is not being charged. There is much more that can be done, with regard to individual liability and the criminal process. I concluded im not convinced that judicial accountability will be easy to find. Particularly in saudi arabia. I dont believe this can be done without turkey either. Im hoping there are some steps taken in the United States, and a range of difficulties, in terms of asserting jurisdiction. I will not want the search for justice for Jamal Khashoggi to be held hostage of the boundaries of legal processes in saudi arabia. I think its important to identify other options for judicial accountability and prosecution, but as well for different forms of accountability, political, diplomatic, strategy, a number of them. These have been the object of the recommendations in my report, along with some of the analysis. In conclusion, i think one political issue that is clear to me is that the response to the killing of mr. Khashoggi cannot be to hide behind a process in saudi arabia that is so imperfect. That is the first thing. Second, we cannot hide behind the notion that this is a domestic issue in saudi arabia. Absolutely not. Its a crime that calls on the International Community to denounce, but also act. Its a crime for which the United States, in particular, should have a particular interest in solving and of a particular interest in the accountability process. One of the reasons im coming to washington is to hope to speak and identify with various factors how far the United States can go, what it should do to ensure the killing of mr. Khashoggi, a u. S. Resident and employee, journalist for the inhington post, therefore many ways, the symbol for a very deep seated value in the u. S. That that killing doesnt go unpunished. Thank you very much. [applause] thank you all for being here. As you heard, it is senior fellow in the policy program. Thank you so much for those specific and comprehensive opening remarks and for the painstaking and thoughtful work that went into this report, which is generating conversation not only around the specifics of this case, but also, as you noted, what this case means for state responsibility, for human rights violations, the balance or tension between individual accountability and state accountability, and what responsibility other actors in the International System have to ensure accountability and, importantly, as you said in your report, the responsibility to prevent a recurrence. As you noted at the outset of your remarks, the targeting of journalists, political dissidents, is all too common. I have to begin by asking whether you have discussed your report and recommendations with the secretarygeneral at all. Dr. Callamard no. I actually tried it was in geneva when i was there last week. It was very difficult to have a conversation. I am planning to do so, however. Wonderful. Have you spoken with the high commissioner for human rights . Dr. Callamard yes. In that conversation, understanding your role is under the u. N. Human rights council, a subject we will come to in this discussion, the high commissioner also has an essential role to play. What do you and she see as the next steps within the u. N. . Dr. Callamard you mean the high commissioner . I think you will have to ask her. I wouldnt want to put words in her mouth. She did express support for the findings and for the followup on accountability, so yeah. Tamara thank you. Do you think you have allies within the u. N. System to pursue additional steps at the u. N. , which is of course one channel for pursuing International Accountability . Dr. Callamard that is an interesting question. [laughter] dr. Callamard look, i think the u. N. Has been paralyzed a bit in terms of how to tackle such an issue. I think the secretarygeneral, the security counsel, the human rights counsel have been have had some difficulty attacking a crime that is linked to such influential actors as saudi arabia, that has been at the eve as i was presenting my report, there were words of war with iran. It is all extraordinarily difficult. I think that is not helping solving truth and justice for the killing of mr. Khashoggi. I think there are allies within the Member States and allies within the individuals working for the United Nations. When it comes to decisionmaking bodies, we have to keep pushing. Tamara thank you. I think as i reflect on the weeks and months since jamaals murder jamals murder, one of the features that has made it so tricky for investigators, but for all of us, to understand what happened and to understand the role played by Different Actors is the context of regional politics. This murder took place in the midst of rivalries and disagreements within the region, including between turkey and saudi arabia. In the immediate aftermath of jamals disappearance, we saw leaking to the media, selective release of information, particularly by the turkish government, you know, and those are there are those that would argue that that muddy the waters for an investigation like yours. My understanding is that, as you went about this work, you had some cooperation from both governments, the turkish and saudi government. I will let you describe precisely. But also, that the turks did not provide you with all of the audiotapes they had available. They didnt provide you with all of the evidence they had available. Would you talk about how you navigated those relationships . Dr. Callamard the investigation into the killing of mr. Khashoggi was a complex one because of the political environment, because of the geo strategic upheaval taking place as i was proceeding with my inquiry, but also because of the nature of the evidence since that was available. All of which was based on intelligence, rather than on what you would expect to find, in terms of evidence. Intelligence is very distinct from criminal evidence. It is like water. You seem to hold it, and then it goes away. Its not as tangible, and it is difficult to challenge it properly, so i am highlighting those limitations in my report. A great deal of the informations available regarding the execution of the killing itself, those very imp