Transcripts For CSPAN QA Jeff Guinn The Vagabonds 20240713 :

Susan we want to listen to just a little bit of jeff bixbys music so people can get a sense of what interested ford and edison. Susan just a little bit of the music. Would a lot of americans be listening to music of this type of this era . I would rather drive you get a sense of place. Somewhere along the line in the 30,000 or so miles i drive every year i started wondering how we got to be a country, a culture where we take for granted we can go anywhere we want to. Since i didnt know i thought it would be a good idea to write a book about that. Your book begins and ends with a somewhat minor character. Who was he and why was he interesting to you . Jeff was an elderly country fiddler working out of michigan playing barn dances and so forth, and that was pretty much the height of his musical career. He was listed in local archives as a shoe maker. Henry ford had heard about his sic and unexpectedly in 1923 his wife opens their door in this little tiny isolated town and there stands henry ford asking to meet her husband. Can he play for ford . Ford hating jazz which of course was going to send america into ruin. He loved folk music. He was enthralled with his playing on his fiddle. Thomas edison equally so. Edison promptly offered him a contract recording in his new jersey studios. Business by went and recorded his music, this was covered by all the major papers of the day, and suddenly this little old man, this very traditional american musician, becomes in parts of the country a household name. So much so that when we died a decade later the New York Times ran his obituary. And to the end of his life he said that no one would have known me but for mr. Ford and mr. Edison. I thought that was a great example of how during these trips out in the country away from the big cities they really did touch the lives of ordinary americans and change them in wonderful ways. We want to listen to just a little bit so people can get a sense of what interested ford and edison. Eedsic invented the phone graph which first brought music into american homes. Edison was looked to as one of these people if hes recording it you must be someone special. With jazz which was considered a sort of heavy metal music of its era starting to bother a lot of Older Americans who thought it was sinful and leading young people into criminality and nonvirtue. It simply was refreshing, it was different, endorsed by edison so people listened. What are the parallels and the time were going through and then . The more books i write about history, the more i see its cyclical. We dont learn from things in he past. America 1914 to 1924 is in transition because of invention, because of technology. Things people never would have thought of 20, 30 years earlier are now part of everyday lives. Odern times, lets think about the cell phone. It was something very few people had a phone and it seemed as though everyone did. One of the reasons henry ford becomes so popular is because he seems to represent to the people who dont want america to change the way things have always been and should be. Chose not to run because wilson kept us out of war. Became a wilson supporter because of a league of nations afterwards. Doesnt think about running in 920 but 1923, 1924 hes a very viable candidate. And in a New York Times section of what the coming race may mean they point out president harding has died, theres a Vice President now president most people dont know anything about. Henry ford would have the support, it was believed, of voters in Middle America. Hes maligned in newspapers and all the main media on the coast constantly. Hes an idiot, he doesnt know what hes talking about, he as bumbler. He said himself he wanted to become president so he could throw a wrench in it. He didnt have any particular ideas besides the fact telling everyone theyre all crooks and i had ideas. We need a businessman to go in. And the thought was if henry ford got his partys nomination, either one, he would probably lose the popular vote because the coasts were the most populated but because he he would dominate Middle America in the western states and much of the south he would probably win in the Electoral College and become president. It was that close. Henry ford could have become president and i promise you the things were seeing now, a lot of the same things would have happened then. You write that he was disdainful of people who read books. Very, very much. He didnt like books because he said it kept people from doing things, that they didnt think. He didnt like people who wrote books. He didnt like the media. He sued the Chicago Tribune at one point for 1 million for character defamation. And when reporters would come out to cover the vagbond trips he would lecture them that they had to tell the right news, the right stories that presented america the way it should be. He certainly would have been as ring about fake news loud or louder as the current president. We found a video in the archives. Theyre amazing. Was this something that he started to preserve his legacy . Henry ford always understood the value of publicity and a lot of the trips besides the ideas some friends getting out and having fun was that you get your names in the newspaper every day, your products are bviously going to benefit. We have a video that we found in the ford archives. Jeff yes. Susan we should talk about the ford archives because theyre extensive. Jeff theyre amazing. Susan is this something that henry started to preserve in the legacy or was it a later on addition . Jeff henry ford understood the value of publicity and a lot of the vagabonds trips, besides getting out and having fun, is that you get your way in the newspaper every day and your products are obviously going to benefit. And so he would hire cinematographers to come up on the trips and have news available to be shown in movie theaters. He wanted america to see how much fun you can have traveling in a car, and at the same time, if the names ford and edison made you go buy something, even better. Susan this is a film that the company produced in the 1950s to tell the story, lets watch a little bit of it. The cars began coming off the Assembly Line at the rate of one every 40 seconds. And what henry ford had foreseen happened mass production of the assembly of the model t down to 300 dollars. Now everybody could have one susan some statistics to understand the magnitude of this cheap production of cars. What are some of the things that you found out about america before the model t and after . Jeff 1900, when there is no model t at, just heavy, expensive cars only the rich can afford, 800 passenger cars in all of america. 1908, henry Ford Introduces the model t, in 1910, there are now half 1 million cars on the roads. Half of those are model ts. By 1920, there are 8 million passenger cars in america, 4 million model ts and over half the people who own cars now use them for leisure travel, besides going to and from ork. It happened that quickly, it would not have happened without henry ford. The Assembly Line, turning out cars in 40 seconds, was the work of a mastermind. It took about two hours per car for his competitors. And you know the joke, you can only get the model t in black. There was a reason for that. Ford insisted on black paint because it dried faster. That meant you saved a few cents on every car going through the line; he passed it on to the consumer. Susan he was also responsible for where Steering Wheels are today, i found out. Jeff he was a visionary theres a lot of things about henry ford that are not admirable. But if you get in an american car today, the Steering Wheel on the left, that was ford, he was the first one to perceived that the people in cars, the passengers, were going to change. They were the property of men only for a long time, because it was so hard to drive and the roads were so rough. But ford saw that more women were going to be in cars. Of course, the men would still drive, because thats the role of men, they take control. But the ladies in their nice dresses would be seated nearby, and roads were still dirt and mud and everything else. With americans driving on the righthand side of the road, if the Steering Wheel was on the left, ford believed, that meant you could pull up to the curb, and the lady could step out on the sidewalk and not get their shoes and clothes dirty. And it seems like a very sexist thing, and of course it is, but it still is the reason to this day that the Steering Wheel is on the lefthand side, before that it could be wherever the manufacturer put it. More often, on the right then the left. Susan just to understand how profound the change was in society, you right in the book, prior to the introduction of the automobile, most americans never ventured more than 12 miles from their home. That was a shocking statistic to me. Logical when you think about it, but shocking, how closed and small peoples worlds were. Jeff very much so. And the whole idea of driving anywhere, up until cars became popular, thanks to ford, was difficult, because 90 of american roads were referred to as wish to god roads, as in people would wish to god they could drive over something besides dirt, stone, and mud. Tires blew out every hundred yards or so, and were hard to repair. Rocks tore up cars, and they were so expensive to repair. Ford build hills model t out of a lighter medal, the model t weighed 1200 pounds, compared to twice that much for competitors cars. That meant even when the road was rough, the model t road higher and lighter and could go farther over the roads. So yes, for the first time, you could get into a car, you could go 100 miles to visit grandma for sunday dinner, and you didnt have to worry as much about having to change the tires eight times and getting hundreds of dollars worth of repairs on the car fterwards. 12 miles had been the limit people would travel because thats how far a horse and wagon could go comfortably and back in one day. Henry ford gave us distance. Susan how frequently would people take trained trips before that . Jeff that was how they traveled. There were two problems with that. First, courts at the rails themselves would know where the trains would go. Second was the schedule. The third was the fact that cars took to train somewhere and if you had a car which you purchased for a few hundred dollars, thanks to henry ford, you put in a couple of gallons of gasoline and 20 or 22 cents a gallon in those days, you could actually go on a trip and do it economically and you can go where you wanted and when you wanted to leave and that was impossible with trains with the economy. Susan when you hear henry ford it was outside the window of your story in 1932 and is giving advice to young men. Just so we can see and hear what they sounded like, lets watch. I support this and they greater burden than Abraham Lincoln carried. And its only common sense and i think its hardworking erbert hoover. Susan you write at the time that they turn of the century in the last couple of decades the most famous. Jeff there werent a whole lot of famous people in america. This is before radios, before movies and before television. Mostly, american heroes in the military leaders and politicians. With the advent not just of newspapers but of news wires so something could happen with the america one day and be in the newspapers and other parts of the american the next, we start to see a few more people merge. Mark twain and so forth. But when Thomas Edison brings music into the home and when he brings films that were closer to large audiences and when it comes up with the incandescent bulb so your house and business have electric light. Edison became the most famous man in america. Veryone knew his name. Henry ford not only because of the model t, but the five dollar workday in 1914 when he doubled the salary of his employees and pretty much forced competitors to have to raise the salaries of the eople they employ. He brought more money into the pockets of working americans with his car, with edison and the things he had done, there are things that you could do it that money. You could get out of your house and have some fun and things were unimaginable in a generation earlier. They were the kardashians of their day. And we had the same media at that time and some of them wouldve given them a funny ame. Literally every american knew where they were and were fascinated by whatever they did or said. Susan they were both complex personalities, as you described. One aspect of it which you talk about in your book in great detail is henry ford antisemitism. Jeff we all here things about henry ford if we study history. The extent of his antisemitism came as a shock to me. The way he used the newspaper he had purchased, the dearborn it tondent, he used publicize what he claimed was a jew plot to take over the American Economy and cause war and all kinds of things, dominate business, wall street, the works. It was terrible then and it was unforgivable then as it is now. In the context of the time, remember ford is out of the midwest and the son of a farmer. In the midwest in the late 1800s when hes growing up in the early 1900s, anything thats not white and protestant is looked at with suspicion and catholics were considered exotic. Ford was speaking to prejudice that he felt was widespread around the country. That there were going to be enough people that felt like he did that would support whatever he was saying. The things he said seemed awful now. They were awful then, but he was speaking to a prejudice that was widespread and existed at the time. Susan this was also the time of jim crow laws and the terrible story of Race Relations at this time in American History. Did henry ford or Thomas Edison ever hire African Americans . Jeff ford, definitely. He was ahead of his time in hiring African Americans and not only that, some of them achieved management positions. I dont believe he felt that black americans, as a rule, were black americans, as a rule, were the equal of white americans, but he also believed in workers and quality of work and giving people a chance to come up the ladder, as long as they were not jewish. And yet he contradicted himself in this, in that he was suspicious and loathed jews as a group, but there would be individual members of the jewish faith that he would respect and think of as friends. He couldnt understand why they would be upset with him when his newspaper starts publishing all these outrageous claims. Edison also was in a certain sense antisemitic. He wasnt as overt about it as ford, but we see it in his private correspondence with ford. And some of his other letters to people on the subject. He was very much a racist in terms of African Americans. Some of the recordings of his company were based on racial prejudice. He had records out there he was selling coon ball, or fight at a colored saloon, prejudice has always been part of america, very regrettably. It was very commercial in their times. They were to some extent bigoted themselves and is reflected in their work and words. Susan anyone watching this can go online and find extensive access to henry ford and Ford Motor Company, and also with mr. Edison. How did the particular companies themselves deal with these less savory parts of their main characters . Jeff i would say that, as i was researching the book, the Ford Motor Company was very helpful, though somewhat concerned that the book might just be about some of fords less attractive beliefs and qualities. But if you go to the ford museum in dearborn and you go to the Benson Ford Research center there, they have right there for anyone to see who wants to, every copy of the dearborn independent with all the very unfortunate things that are in it. Their archives contain the materials that demonstrate just what an antisemite henry ford was. Thomas Edison Research park in west orange, new jersey, the same thing. The archives of their lives that had been preserved for us are very objective, and you can find in them what you look for. When im writing a book, im not trying to say one thing or the other, i am trying to give balance in context, which i hope i did. Susan so a little bit more on Thomas Edison. What are the ages of the two men during the ten years that you write about them . Jeff Thomas Edison is about a decade and a half older than henry ford. We have to remember, their relationship began when henry ford is working for one of Thomas Edisons companies in detroit, as a young engineer, whos got this great idea for a gasoline powered car. He worships Thomas Edison. He forces his way almost on to edison, at the company banquet, to say, ive done this wonderful thing, i want to tell you about. Edison, whos used to dealing with young whippersnappers who have got some great mention, he said, youve got, it thats the thing. And he completely forgot it. Ford decided that he had edisons blessing with his project. Some years later, when ford has introduced the model t, which is and is one of the most famous and wealthy americans, he writes asking for an autographed picture of edison and edison says, id really like to meet mr. Ford, he seems interesting. He had forgotten the whole thing. But when they met, it was an instant warm bond for this reason. They are now the two most famous men in america. Theyve accomplished so much, everyone knows their name. But no one else but the two of them can understand the pressure, because once you produce a miracle for the public, then you are expected to keep on doing it, whatever you did yesterday is never enough. There must be more. They understood that in each other and they talk to each other, they could relate in a way that no other two people in the country or in the world could. So, they became fast and close friends. Two men who did not trust most people and did not have many friends. Susan where did the idea come up for the vagabonds and the road trips . Jeff almost by accident. In 1914, New York Times<\/a> ran his obituary. And to the end of his life he said that no one would have known me but for mr. Ford and mr. Edison. I thought that was a great example of how during these trips out in the country away from the big cities they really did touch the lives of ordinary americans and change them in wonderful ways. We want to listen to just a little bit so people can get a sense of what interested ford and edison. Eedsic invented the phone graph which first brought music into american homes. Edison was looked to as one of these people if hes recording it you must be someone special. With jazz which was considered a sort of heavy metal music of its era starting to bother a lot of Older Americans<\/a> who thought it was sinful and leading young people into criminality and nonvirtue. It simply was refreshing, it was different, endorsed by edison so people listened. What are the parallels and the time were going through and then . The more books i write about history, the more i see its cyclical. We dont learn from things in he past. America 1914 to 1924 is in transition because of invention, because of technology. Things people never would have thought of 20, 30 years earlier are now part of everyday lives. Odern times, lets think about the cell phone. It was something very few people had a phone and it seemed as though everyone did. One of the reasons henry ford becomes so popular is because he seems to represent to the people who dont want america to change the way things have always been and should be. Chose not to run because wilson kept us out of war. Became a wilson supporter because of a league of nations afterwards. Doesnt think about running in 920 but 1923, 1924 hes a very viable candidate. And in a New York Times<\/a> section of what the coming race may mean they point out president harding has died, theres a Vice President<\/a> now president most people dont know anything about. Henry ford would have the support, it was believed, of voters in Middle America<\/a>. Hes maligned in newspapers and all the main media on the coast constantly. Hes an idiot, he doesnt know what hes talking about, he as bumbler. He said himself he wanted to become president so he could throw a wrench in it. He didnt have any particular ideas besides the fact telling everyone theyre all crooks and i had ideas. We need a businessman to go in. And the thought was if henry ford got his partys nomination, either one, he would probably lose the popular vote because the coasts were the most populated but because he he would dominate Middle America<\/a> in the western states and much of the south he would probably win in the Electoral College<\/a> and become president. It was that close. Henry ford could have become president and i promise you the things were seeing now, a lot of the same things would have happened then. You write that he was disdainful of people who read books. Very, very much. He didnt like books because he said it kept people from doing things, that they didnt think. He didnt like people who wrote books. He didnt like the media. He sued the Chicago Tribune<\/a> at one point for 1 million for character defamation. And when reporters would come out to cover the vagbond trips he would lecture them that they had to tell the right news, the right stories that presented america the way it should be. He certainly would have been as ring about fake news loud or louder as the current president. We found a video in the archives. Theyre amazing. Was this something that he started to preserve his legacy . Henry ford always understood the value of publicity and a lot of the trips besides the ideas some friends getting out and having fun was that you get your names in the newspaper every day, your products are bviously going to benefit. We have a video that we found in the ford archives. Jeff yes. Susan we should talk about the ford archives because theyre extensive. Jeff theyre amazing. Susan is this something that henry started to preserve in the legacy or was it a later on addition . Jeff henry ford understood the value of publicity and a lot of the vagabonds trips, besides getting out and having fun, is that you get your way in the newspaper every day and your products are obviously going to benefit. And so he would hire cinematographers to come up on the trips and have news available to be shown in movie theaters. He wanted america to see how much fun you can have traveling in a car, and at the same time, if the names ford and edison made you go buy something, even better. Susan this is a film that the company produced in the 1950s to tell the story, lets watch a little bit of it. The cars began coming off the Assembly Line<\/a> at the rate of one every 40 seconds. And what henry ford had foreseen happened mass production of the assembly of the model t down to 300 dollars. Now everybody could have one susan some statistics to understand the magnitude of this cheap production of cars. What are some of the things that you found out about america before the model t and after . Jeff 1900, when there is no model t at, just heavy, expensive cars only the rich can afford, 800 passenger cars in all of america. 1908, henry Ford Introduces<\/a> the model t, in 1910, there are now half 1 million cars on the roads. Half of those are model ts. By 1920, there are 8 million passenger cars in america, 4 million model ts and over half the people who own cars now use them for leisure travel, besides going to and from ork. It happened that quickly, it would not have happened without henry ford. The Assembly Line<\/a>, turning out cars in 40 seconds, was the work of a mastermind. It took about two hours per car for his competitors. And you know the joke, you can only get the model t in black. There was a reason for that. Ford insisted on black paint because it dried faster. That meant you saved a few cents on every car going through the line; he passed it on to the consumer. Susan he was also responsible for where Steering Wheel<\/a>s are today, i found out. Jeff he was a visionary theres a lot of things about henry ford that are not admirable. But if you get in an american car today, the Steering Wheel<\/a> on the left, that was ford, he was the first one to perceived that the people in cars, the passengers, were going to change. They were the property of men only for a long time, because it was so hard to drive and the roads were so rough. But ford saw that more women were going to be in cars. Of course, the men would still drive, because thats the role of men, they take control. But the ladies in their nice dresses would be seated nearby, and roads were still dirt and mud and everything else. With americans driving on the righthand side of the road, if the Steering Wheel<\/a> was on the left, ford believed, that meant you could pull up to the curb, and the lady could step out on the sidewalk and not get their shoes and clothes dirty. And it seems like a very sexist thing, and of course it is, but it still is the reason to this day that the Steering Wheel<\/a> is on the lefthand side, before that it could be wherever the manufacturer put it. More often, on the right then the left. Susan just to understand how profound the change was in society, you right in the book, prior to the introduction of the automobile, most americans never ventured more than 12 miles from their home. That was a shocking statistic to me. Logical when you think about it, but shocking, how closed and small peoples worlds were. Jeff very much so. And the whole idea of driving anywhere, up until cars became popular, thanks to ford, was difficult, because 90 of american roads were referred to as wish to god roads, as in people would wish to god they could drive over something besides dirt, stone, and mud. Tires blew out every hundred yards or so, and were hard to repair. Rocks tore up cars, and they were so expensive to repair. Ford build hills model t out of a lighter medal, the model t weighed 1200 pounds, compared to twice that much for competitors cars. That meant even when the road was rough, the model t road higher and lighter and could go farther over the roads. So yes, for the first time, you could get into a car, you could go 100 miles to visit grandma for sunday dinner, and you didnt have to worry as much about having to change the tires eight times and getting hundreds of dollars worth of repairs on the car fterwards. 12 miles had been the limit people would travel because thats how far a horse and wagon could go comfortably and back in one day. Henry ford gave us distance. Susan how frequently would people take trained trips before that . Jeff that was how they traveled. There were two problems with that. First, courts at the rails themselves would know where the trains would go. Second was the schedule. The third was the fact that cars took to train somewhere and if you had a car which you purchased for a few hundred dollars, thanks to henry ford, you put in a couple of gallons of gasoline and 20 or 22 cents a gallon in those days, you could actually go on a trip and do it economically and you can go where you wanted and when you wanted to leave and that was impossible with trains with the economy. Susan when you hear henry ford it was outside the window of your story in 1932 and is giving advice to young men. Just so we can see and hear what they sounded like, lets watch. I support this and they greater burden than Abraham Lincoln<\/a> carried. And its only common sense and i think its hardworking erbert hoover. Susan you write at the time that they turn of the century in the last couple of decades the most famous. Jeff there werent a whole lot of famous people in america. This is before radios, before movies and before television. Mostly, american heroes in the military leaders and politicians. With the advent not just of newspapers but of news wires so something could happen with the america one day and be in the newspapers and other parts of the american the next, we start to see a few more people merge. Mark twain and so forth. But when Thomas Edison<\/a> brings music into the home and when he brings films that were closer to large audiences and when it comes up with the incandescent bulb so your house and business have electric light. Edison became the most famous man in america. Veryone knew his name. Henry ford not only because of the model t, but the five dollar workday in 1914 when he doubled the salary of his employees and pretty much forced competitors to have to raise the salaries of the eople they employ. He brought more money into the pockets of working americans with his car, with edison and the things he had done, there are things that you could do it that money. You could get out of your house and have some fun and things were unimaginable in a generation earlier. They were the kardashians of their day. And we had the same media at that time and some of them wouldve given them a funny ame. Literally every american knew where they were and were fascinated by whatever they did or said. Susan they were both complex personalities, as you described. One aspect of it which you talk about in your book in great detail is henry ford antisemitism. Jeff we all here things about henry ford if we study history. The extent of his antisemitism came as a shock to me. The way he used the newspaper he had purchased, the dearborn it tondent, he used publicize what he claimed was a jew plot to take over the American Economy<\/a> and cause war and all kinds of things, dominate business, wall street, the works. It was terrible then and it was unforgivable then as it is now. In the context of the time, remember ford is out of the midwest and the son of a farmer. In the midwest in the late 1800s when hes growing up in the early 1900s, anything thats not white and protestant is looked at with suspicion and catholics were considered exotic. Ford was speaking to prejudice that he felt was widespread around the country. That there were going to be enough people that felt like he did that would support whatever he was saying. The things he said seemed awful now. They were awful then, but he was speaking to a prejudice that was widespread and existed at the time. Susan this was also the time of jim crow laws and the terrible story of Race Relations<\/a> at this time in American History<\/a>. Did henry ford or Thomas Edison<\/a> ever hire African Americans<\/a> . Jeff ford, definitely. He was ahead of his time in hiring African Americans<\/a> and not only that, some of them achieved management positions. I dont believe he felt that black americans, as a rule, were black americans, as a rule, were the equal of white americans, but he also believed in workers and quality of work and giving people a chance to come up the ladder, as long as they were not jewish. And yet he contradicted himself in this, in that he was suspicious and loathed jews as a group, but there would be individual members of the jewish faith that he would respect and think of as friends. He couldnt understand why they would be upset with him when his newspaper starts publishing all these outrageous claims. Edison also was in a certain sense antisemitic. He wasnt as overt about it as ford, but we see it in his private correspondence with ford. And some of his other letters to people on the subject. He was very much a racist in terms of African Americans<\/a>. Some of the recordings of his company were based on racial prejudice. He had records out there he was selling coon ball, or fight at a colored saloon, prejudice has always been part of america, very regrettably. It was very commercial in their times. They were to some extent bigoted themselves and is reflected in their work and words. Susan anyone watching this can go online and find extensive access to henry ford and Ford Motor Company<\/a>, and also with mr. Edison. How did the particular companies themselves deal with these less savory parts of their main characters . Jeff i would say that, as i was researching the book, the Ford Motor Company<\/a> was very helpful, though somewhat concerned that the book might just be about some of fords less attractive beliefs and qualities. But if you go to the ford museum in dearborn and you go to the Benson Ford Research<\/a> center there, they have right there for anyone to see who wants to, every copy of the dearborn independent with all the very unfortunate things that are in it. Their archives contain the materials that demonstrate just what an antisemite henry ford was. Thomas Edison Research<\/a> park in west orange, new jersey, the same thing. The archives of their lives that had been preserved for us are very objective, and you can find in them what you look for. When im writing a book, im not trying to say one thing or the other, i am trying to give balance in context, which i hope i did. Susan so a little bit more on Thomas Edison<\/a>. What are the ages of the two men during the ten years that you write about them . Jeff Thomas Edison<\/a> is about a decade and a half older than henry ford. We have to remember, their relationship began when henry ford is working for one of Thomas Edison<\/a>s companies in detroit, as a young engineer, whos got this great idea for a gasoline powered car. He worships Thomas Edison<\/a>. He forces his way almost on to edison, at the company banquet, to say, ive done this wonderful thing, i want to tell you about. Edison, whos used to dealing with young whippersnappers who have got some great mention, he said, youve got, it thats the thing. And he completely forgot it. Ford decided that he had edisons blessing with his project. Some years later, when ford has introduced the model t, which is and is one of the most famous and wealthy americans, he writes asking for an autographed picture of edison and edison says, id really like to meet mr. Ford, he seems interesting. He had forgotten the whole thing. But when they met, it was an instant warm bond for this reason. They are now the two most famous men in america. Theyve accomplished so much, everyone knows their name. But no one else but the two of them can understand the pressure, because once you produce a miracle for the public, then you are expected to keep on doing it, whatever you did yesterday is never enough. There must be more. They understood that in each other and they talk to each other, they could relate in a way that no other two people in the country or in the world could. So, they became fast and close friends. Two men who did not trust most people and did not have many friends. Susan where did the idea come up for the vagabonds and the road trips . Jeff almost by accident. In 1914, Thomas Edison<\/a> and his wife nina invited henry and clara ford and john burrows who was a close friend of henry ford to come visit the at their estate and fort myers during the winter. Sometime in january. A lot of wealthy americans would go south but fort myers was a wild place, not the more sophisticated east coast of florida. Burrows, being a naturalist and edison always want to learn more things. The idea that they would come ahead and take a ride into the everglades and there would be lots of exotic plants and animal life and will have an adventure. It was pointed out to them that there were not really any roads there and its dangerous and there was alligators and people could die, but they knew better. The trip lasted a day and a half and there was a monsoon and there were snakes and there were alligators and they fled. But they liked the idea, and so it came about that they would take a trip once a year if they could, but with a little better planning so disaster would be less looming. Susan heres the inclusion of boroughs, who is a very famous last name of firestone. With burrows than that the naturalist, he was very wellknown to americans and our president ial history study here and there pictures here with theodore roosevelt. Why was he a welcome part of this a very wealthy couple in this very wealthy couple and their families. Jeff john burrows was one of the most famous naturalist and he had this long santa beard and he looked unique and he was a crusty old coot, and when everyone else was talking about Mother Nature<\/a> kind of like a disney film, boroughs talked about nature being competition and only the strongest survived. He loved to ramble and write about things. Theodore roosevelt was his first famous supporter and took a trip with roosevelt to the Yellowstone National<\/a> park. Henry ford had read burrows writings. He did not like to read much, but he liked john burrows. When john burrows he was speaking out against the model t, a demon on wheels, soon its going to pollute every quiet corner of the forest and he sent burrows a model t and said, try it, i think you will like it. He attempted driving, it did not work well, there was an unfortunate incident with the barn. Boroughs and ford became friends and he appreciated fords real interest in nature and he also appreciated the fact that ford farmased outright burrows birthplace that was in danger of being taken by the banks. It was great publicity, but besides that he just liked him. Susan the fourth was Harvey Firestone<\/a> and we know his name from tires like we know today and illogical that would be a business partner. How did he become friends and included in that group. Jeff henry ford had few friends, but if he liked you, particularly if he thought if you kept your word and had a lot of common sense then he would accept you. Harvey firestone was a young man that started out peddling snake oil and from there carriage wheels and he got the idea that there should be tires for cars which would be the next big thing, but not tires that blew up all the time. He developed a narrower, more firm tire that did not explode as much. He needed to find some big manufacturer who would use those tires to bring them out into the minds of consumers. He talked ford into trying firestone tires, and ford thought it was the duty of the manufacturer to give the something not only something not only dependable but that would last a long time. He was impressed with firestone tires and bought 2000 originally and they delivered the quality that had been promised. So he started using firestone tires on his cars. Clearly that meant Harvey Firestone<\/a> went from nowhere to being one of the tire magnets of the industry. So it would have served him well to be friends with henry ford, but one of the things i really like about firestone is, here you have a man who has done so much on his own. Now hes going out as part of the vagabonds with ford and and they treat him like a punky kid brother, and he has to run the errands and do all the things. And hes happy to do it. Not just because he owes so much to ford, but because he really respects them. And he enjoys being around them and listening to them, of the four travelers in the vagabonds, i think most of us would like to go on a trip with Harvey Firestone<\/a>. Susan the first vagabond adventure of fort myers was 1914. What were the years of ensuing vagabond trips . Jeff it picks up in 1915, out in california, when part of the trip is made from los angeles to san diego by car. And from there, 1916 on, except with one interruption in 1917 for the war, then theres another interruption in 1922, because of certain economic financial problems going on, they kept doing these trips through 1924. They stopped after 1924, according to them, because too many people were crowding around and there was too much attention paid and they couldnt relax. The opposite was true. Susan in 1915, there was one sentence in your book that struck me. Despite the european war, 1915 remained a time of wonder in the United States<\/a>. Why . Jeff lets think about it for a minute. In 1915, yes, all these terrible things are happening overseas. But for the first time, technologically, industrially, america is the shining a light in the world. Thanks to the five dollar day introduced by ford, its not just because of ford and edison, but youve got the telephone, with Alexander Graham<\/a> bell, youve got these other things. For the first time, americans dont have to think, go to work, make a subsistence living, come home to candle light and basically when it gets dark you go to bed. In work, in leisure, in all the amenities that suddenly were there, its such a huge change, in one generation, the parents of working class americans in 1915 would never have imagined these wonders could be possible. And all of a sudden, life has changed, and leisure, and the extra things you can do, become just about as important as the work you do to support yourself. It was an entirely different culture, and it happened in a generation. Susan we have some video to show what these trips were like. Today, i think the word is glamping. It was not really four men roughing it. They had an entourage. Lets show a bit of what these trips look like and what their times of camping on the road were. Weve got photographs and video of these folks, with cooks. How many people would go on them . Jeff you might have as many as 20 Staff Members<\/a> coming along. The idea was that they want to go out and have fun. They wanted to demonstrate, hey, guess what . If you get in your car, you can go out and do these things as well. But they were not going to have to light their own campfires. They were not going to coal going to eat beans out of cans. They were not just going to put a blanket on the ground. They had all these different amenities, they have a refrigerated car powered by edison batteries, so they could have fresh dairy. They had chefs who would prepare gourmet meals, in the morning they would dress in freshly ironed clothes. But you see, they were so famous, and america was so grateful to them, that that didnt matter. The point was, hey, we are out in cars, traveling and seeing these things. You can do it too, and they didnt go to big cities. They went out into the boonies, where lots of people havent even seen a car. So for ordinary americans, they are saying, we are not exactly like you are, but the basic parts of this are the same. Try it for yourself susan how did ordinary americans follow their exploits . Jeff through the newspapers, and i promise you, you look back, every newspaper in america, every day on these trips, would have reports on where they were, what the camp looked like, if they stopped to eat at a cafe, what did they have for lunch. Now, for the big media, and by that, we mean big city newspapers in those days, they regularly mocked ford for his political beliefs and some of the really crazy things he had to say about history and so forth, he got so much wrong. At the same time, while they are convincing their readers editorially, this guy is a nut. He is not worth your attention, do not listen to him. Working class americans loved him so much that the papers had no choice. They had to constantly write is howim because that people got subscriptions. What is and we for up to today . If you worship henry ford and you think the big cities are suspicious anyway you dont care what the New York Times<\/a> says in the editorial or the Chicago Tribune<\/a>. When youre local paper carries a New York Times<\/a> wire Service Story<\/a> about where the vagabonds camped last night and this wonderful thing that happened was amazing that you just have to read about, they had to run those stories, too. The big media in many ways looked down on them, but they had no choice. They still had to cover them. Susan heres another bit of film in this one is a combination of henry ford and naturalists boroughs and look like they were having a tree chopping contest. [laughter] you can talk over this because it is silent of course. Jeff this is 1920, john burrows was very sick and there was a business slump so the vagabonds were not going to go out on the trip at all. Then they decided they needed to show we have faith in the business community. They actually went to farms in upstate new york, a spectacular place only rich people went. This is the only time they did that. They needed to get attention. Something newsworthy had to happen so the newspaper would cover it. Burrows, 80 years old, is supposedly challenged by henry ford to a tree chopping contest with Thomas Edison<\/a> as the timekeeper. It was a fix. Burrows has this little slender tree. Ford takes on a much thicker tree. , but everyone in america reads about how burrows bested ford. They were masters of publicity. Susan in your notes of mr. Burrows he right he was a world class griper and whined about everything. Why did they continue to include him . [laughter] jeff we all have a grumpy old grandfather, uncle thats part of the family and you just accept the fact that he is going to be complaining about everything. And edison admired expertise in others and burrows was a fabulous naturalist and on these trips they would learn things from him. Besides that, he became part of their image. There were vaudeville jokes about people who are stumbling upon these four men, you claim your henry ford, you claim your are Thomas Edison<\/a> and you claim , you are Harvey Firestone<\/a> and the guy with a white beard is santa claus. Burrows was part of the group and the except it all and there they accepted him warts and all and there were a lot of warts. It was a lot of fun to read about these days. Susan you go through the vagabonds trip and in 1916 you mentioned that henry ford was contemplating his first of truth possible under the presidency. Talk about his politics. Where would you put them today on the liberal and conservative and republican side . Jeff if henry ford were alive today and active in politics, he would be on fox and friends every other week. He would certainly support the most conservative political spokespeople. He would believe greatly in conspiracies, he would buy into that. That the government basically exists to dupe the taxpayer and take advantage of honest people. , he would not consider himself a bigot or a racist or anything else. He would just think he was a good commonsense man who was brave enough to say what he thought. Remember, his whole political philosophy was if i am president , i am going to throw a wrench in it. He had no programs to offer that might change things in any way. He was appealing in the broadest sense to other people who were as alienated as he was. Susan did he align with one party or the other . Jeff he did not align because he felt he was above that and if and when he ran for the senate, which was his only official race getting on the ballot in michigan, he ran on the democratic and republican tickets. On theened to win democratic ticket. He was nipped on the republican ticket by a former businessman and Administration Officials<\/a> that was very much against the five dollar workday and socialism. But in his heart, he was really a republican, and was very right wing republican. He was a pacifist, but remember there were certain elected who were veryy much against america getting involved in the middle east. Then you get into office and you think differently. We can assume if he had been elected president the chaos he promised would have ensued. Hean can you talk about how promoted his antiwar views in the years leading up to americas decision to enter world war i . Jeff he was very outspoken and prior to getting involved in world war i, preparedness was a popular word that we have to be ready in case you have to go to war. Thomas edison very much supported preparedness. Ford said he would spend 1 million if he had to to keep america out of wars. America did not wanted. The Business People<\/a> needed it for their products, the politicians wanted it. 1915, he decided he would rent a steamship and he would invite on the steamship all of the best minds in america. Political leaders, religious leaders, business leaders, to get on the peace ship and they would go over to scandinavia, to a neutral country, and then they would invite the heads of the powers in europe to come together and would convince them that fighting is not the way to resolve the problems. We will talk through it. The peace ship got a lot of publicity. Much of it in the eastern seaboard newspapers mocking ford, which he didnt like. He cannot believe americas leading lights do not want to get in on this, they thought it was a terrible idea. Edison and burrows turned him down. He ends up on the ship with a lot of people who dont have much heft in terms of being able to make things happen but have loudly expressed opinions. The peace ship is a disaster. By the second day, the reporters who were writing about all of the chaos and confusion, ford says he has a cold, and and closes himself in his state room and as soon as the peace ship lands on the other side of the break land to, he heads home, claiming illness. It was an embarrassing thing for henry ford, but finally decided it was worth the half 1 Million Dollars<\/a> it cost him because he got people talking about the senselessness of war. I will say this. He put his money where his mouth was and his mouth was everywhere. Susan you write that once america decided to get into the war, that in fact he was all in and turned his factories into war production. How did tsquare that intellectually, or was it purely how did he square that intellectually, or was it an economic decision . Jeff he was a patriotic american and loved this country. Once they were in the war, he decided that the only thing to do was to try to support your country as best you could. But he promised that he would not profit one cent. Whenever the war was over, they would figure out how much the United States<\/a> government spends for war materials, and would calculate what his profit was and then he would return the money. When the war was over, and someone from the u. S. Treasury figured it out for him. He had made 900,000 profit. He never gave that back to the government. Somehow that never came to light in any way that wouldve been a public scandal, but i think it was fords way of saying you know what, you screwed up and i made some money and ok. Susan you referenced earlier about how he was angry about fake News Coverage<\/a> and one of his ways to combat this was the purchase of the dearborn independent. Tell me that story. Jeff it was a very nondescript weekly newspaper in fords hometown. Ford, of course, fake news, did not like the press. He wanted his own newspaper and so he purchased it for very little money and lets face it, who wanted to own the dearborn independent except henry ford . He tried to turn it into a tool for his own political views. He hired a lot of experience journalist and sunk a lot of money into it. He had a column, mr. Fords views, that was ghostwritten, but his audiences Middle America<\/a> workingclass popes. If they see mr. Fords views, they will assume henry ford wrote it. The problem was the paper did not become arrival of the New York Times<\/a> or the Chicago Tribune<\/a>. Most of the people who had it got it because subscriptions were built into the price of a model t. Ford basically made it clear to the people who were getting good salaries to work for the independent, what we do to make sure people read this, and one of them said sensationalism. Lets have some sensationalism. What was there . Ford bought into legends that jews were trying to take over the World Economy<\/a> and everything else. For 91 straight weeks, his newspaper, the dearborn independent ran suppose it exposes. Susan we have an example of one of those of you put on screen. One of those we can put on screen. For 91 weeks the dearborn independent had some major headlines and exposing what he saw as the problem. Jeff the international jew. Susan how did people react to this . Did his own Editorial Staff<\/a> continue to support . Jeff there were people working on staff who quit, but it was simply understood that this is what mr. Ford wants his writing about and if you accept that and they did and they did it. Executives at the ford motor co. Tried to convince him you are making a terrible mistake only because jewish people buy cars and would boycott the model t. Fords response was if it is a good enough product, people will buy it, no matter what. He only ordered the independent to stop running these weekly articles when he is preparing himself to run for president in 1924. He calls them off. He ends up not running for president. The article start again, and he only stops doing it when the lawsuit is brought against him. He loses the suit and not only loses money but has to publicly in some way, apologize, apologize that he had no idea these things were being written. That simply was not true. Susan when he was considering running for president there was a republican president , he managed to convince president harding to come with the vagabonds for one of their trips. We have some film from that experience. Tell me the story of how the president came, why he state, and what the reaction was. In 1921, warren g. Harding had yet to accomplish anything in office. Historians will say that he was elected president because he looked like one. He ran on a platform with the america first, we will only think of american and that is true patriotism. And he was invited to join the vagabonds for a week or more out on the road at a camp in maryland. Harding came but outfoxed the vagabonds. They expected they would have time to talk to him about the ir concerns. Edison wants to talk to him about American Rubber<\/a> production and ford wanted to purchase some some Government Owned Properties<\/a> in alabama. Never had a chance. Harding, who understood the newspaper business better than anyone, because he owned a newspaper in ohio, dominated the proceedings and ended up only staying in afternoon and part of i think it was partly because his exposure to harding and again, hey wait a minute it was not that smart to me. Ford thought he saw an opening and scandals started to rock the administration in 1922 in 1923. Henry ford pretty much positioned himself to go for the republican nomination against an incumbent president who began with his strength in Middle America<\/a> with the scandals of harding. Then harding once again, doing something inconvenient for henry ford, died. Susan we had a new president , Calvin Coolidge<\/a> which had his thoughts about this. Jeff ford still considered running against coolidge. But a couple of things. First was clara ford did not want her husband to run and the second thing was he really wanted Muscle Shoals<\/a> in alabama and wanted for hydroelectric and could bring to the farmers and part of america and he said that he was doing this ltruistically. The government spent almost 80 million to build the facilities and he offered 5 million to purchase it. If he was voted in as president , it would be a conflict of interest and he could not do it anymore. So based on available evidence, he would support coolidge and coolidge in turn would not speak against the Muscle Shoals<\/a> urchase. Ford was not politically sophisticated enough to notice the language, that he would come out and endorse coolidge. Coolidge would not oppose selling muscle shoales to henry ford and any politician that wouldve told ford, way to mullet think about it. Usan the vagabonds made their way calvinoo it was gfication that you would get together and tell stories and vagabonds with stay overnight. To coolidge, it was taking an hour out of his schedule to get the endorsement of some prominent people and the vagabonds were shocked that mr. And mrs. Coolidge started saying goodbye and they were escorted out. They were outmaneuvered by the president. Susan we have five minutes left of your conversation. How did the vagabonds end . Jeff when burrows died, part of the joy went out because now you do not have someone to go out there and teach you about nature. 1921 was a disappointment to them because harding the incoming line. In 1922, there was no trip. 1923 was supposedly to launch fords president ial campaign and instead it was him saying he was going to run and he would support coolidge. 924, theyre nipped in the bud y coolidge, so to speak. And they said that theres too much attention and they stopped because they werent going to get the daily attention anymore. There are 20 million cars in america; an estimate to 2 million americans go out on trips. Radio is coming in and theres so many more american heroes in sport and the movies are bringing us cinematic idols. Lots of other famous people for the newspaper to write about. They were not getting the attention anymore so they trips dwindled out. A couple of years later when ford tried to revive them, as edison said they werent there anymore. Susan you went on the vagabonds trips. How many years it take you . Jeff about two and a half. Susan how many miles you travel . On the car. I tried to take the roads they took where they still exist it but when they didnt exist i would use whatever roads were closed to them and most of my material for small county historical societys still had eyewitness accounts of what happened when these famous folks appeared. Plus, the ford museum in dearborn and at the park in new jersey or wonderfully helpful. The history in the book where these trips or you can actually go on a trip yourself and its fascinating. Susan in the end, after having worked on this book and told us the story, what do you think the lessons are . Is it a capsule piece of American History<\/a> or is our lesson for today that we can take away . Jeff the thing it will remind us over and over is history is cyclical. It is true if we dont learn from it, we will repeat it. The exact political situation we have today is reflecting in henry ford. His president ial ambitions and the things he wanted to do. Immigration was a huge talking point politically in america at he time. Do we want these mexicans and these latins coming into this country . What should we do if we dont want them . There was a wall built on the u. S. Mexican border at the time and people forget to mention that today. But it didnt work and you could still see part of it today if you wanted to. We have accusations of fake news and the media being accused of deliberately being against someone in certain political philosophies. You read this book, you learn a lot about america then and theres also a great deal about them now. Susan you have written most books looking at characters that talk to us about a period of time. What is first . The chicken or the egg, the idea of the time period of a personalities and you have an ex one in mind . Jeff i always try to find some American History<\/a> year that i want to understand better and i want to find individuals on events that are supporting that. Right now, im in the middle of research in the real history of the u. S. Mexican border. Lets face it, its being talked about all the time and yet everything today has happened in the past and including camps but are oversubscribed as concentration camps, and others are about facilities and treating everyone fairly. We have to start learning from the things that have happened. Because there are lessons there and history is important. This book i am writing, i hope people say, wait a minute, where is this happening today . Susan book number 32 . [laughter] jeff when you cannot write good, write a lot. Susan the name of the current book is the vagabonds. Thank you so much for telling the story. Jeff my pleasure, thank you. Announcer all q a is available on our website and podcast. T cspan. Org. Sunday on q a, ellen alan kraut talks about immigration policies over the last two centuries. See how they have evolved. He chairs the Ellis Island Foundation<\/a> history advisory committee. That is q a next sunday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern and pacific on span. Announcer cspans washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. Coming up this morning, we will discuss the new cspan on Election Security<\/a> and other reform. And we will talk about the obama and trump administrations involvement with ukraine with Foreign Policy<\/a> staff member. Former South Carolina<\/a> governor and u. S. Representative mark san overed joins us to talk about the republican nomination for president. Be sure to watch cspans washington journal live at 7 00 eastern monday morning. Join the discussion. Tonight on the communicators, the former advisor to tom wheeler and patrick howling talk about the recent d. C. Appeals Court Decision<\/a> on net neutrality. The court said the fccs decision to regulate broad band as an Information Service<\/a> as it has been for the last 20 years was permissible. When the fcc deregulated broad band and reclassified it as an Information Service<\/a> rather than Telecommunication Service<\/a> and also another part of the act does not provide authority for regulation, it washed its hands of its authority to oversee the broad band market. Tonight at 8 00 eastern on cspan 2. Today is the state opening of British Parliament<\/a> which marks the formal start of the parliamentary year. Queen elizabeth ii will make a speech shortly. 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