Ayes and 17 nos. With the House Judiciary Committee approving two articles of impeachment against President Trump, abuse of power and obstruction of congress, the House Rules Committee will meet to consider the guidelines. Watch live coverage of house rules, tuesday at 11 00 a. M. Eastern on cspan3. Watch online at cspan. Org or listen live with the free cspan radio app. Joining us on capitol hill is congressman mac thornberry, republican of texas. Thank you for joining us on newsmakers. Joe gould covers congress for defense news. With your first question is john donnelly. John first question i want to ask about is the National Defense authorization act, the ndaa, which is expected to become law very soon. A marquee element of that legislation is the creation of a 6th branch of the u. S. Military to be called space force, part of the air force like the marine corps is part of the navy. China and russia are endangering military satellites in space. We know the importance of space as a war fighting realm, but talk to us why its important to have a separate organization created, why the air force doesnt have the resources or commitment to get it done. Rep. Thornberry i think the place to start is the importance of space for our daily lives as americans. One of the examples i use is every time you fill up your car to pay at the pump, the pump connects to a satellite to verify your credit card before it will let you put gas into the car. Every transaction on the New York Stock Exchange is timed to the gps satellites. You go through example after example of how our economy and our daily life is dependent upon space. As you point out, adversaries such as russia and china have made incredible progress, partly because they know we are dependent upon space, they want to have the means to deny us the use of space. Thats what makes space now a war fighting domain. A lot of folks, even in the government, are getting used to that sort of idea. If you think about it, air and space are very different sorts of operating domains with different characteristics, different war fighting planning is required. Two years ago, the house of representatives voted to create the space corps. Part of our reasoning was we believed you really needed to have a group of folks dedicated to thinking about space, fighting, winning, and defending the u. S. In space fulltime. Having Fighter Pilots do it parttime was not going to get the job done. I think the reasons for us doing that two years ago have only grown as we have seen developments. Its also being better about the acquisition of satellites and space assets. Developing everything you need in this domain like we have in air, land, sea, and increasingly in cyberspace. It is an idea thats time has come. It will walk before it runs. We will take it step by step to graduate up into a full war fighting domain. This is a good and important start. Do you have any concerns that once youve established the organization, do you have anything that will not only grow in clout, but it will grow in budget and begin to how bureaucracies tend to flourish . Rep. Thornberry you do worry about that. One of the things we have this year is the strict limit on how much money can be spent to set up the new space force. Just to guard against the sort of bureaucratic bloat that has been plagued some other organizations. Its up to us to keep on top of that and not let that happen. What we need is more war fighting and defending capabilities. We dont need more bureaucracy. Is that a limit that will stay in place over a period of time, or just this congress . Rep. Thornberry this limit applies only to this coming fiscal year. You are right, we will have to look at next year and i suspect we may want to have a limit next year and the year after. As they come to us with the budget request, how many people they need, what they will do, thats part of our job. Joe with impeachment proceedings in the news, i wanted to ask about military aid to ukraine that the white house froze and later released. Do you know why the aide was released in september . Did the administration to your knowledge conduct any sort of review to the corruption it claims to have been concerned about . If so, who conducted that review . The pentagon did clear that aid at some point prior to the administration putting on hold. Rep. Thornberry the short answer to your question is i dont know. As you recall, there have been tremendous disagreements during the Obama Administration about providing aid and especially aid that can be lethal assistance to the folks in ukraine fighting against this incursion coming from russia. With the Trump Administration, we finally got the aid approved. As you point out, i believe it was may or june that the pentagon gave the green light this year to provide that aid. Then we hear there was a delay coming from the office of management and budget. Chairman adam smith sent a letter to omb in august asking the meaning of it. Why is this aid being held up . About one month later, it was released on september 11. The short answer, i dont know why it was held up, it was something we fussed about. I think its important to continue to support people who are struggling for their independence in ukraine. To your knowledge, was in this a consistent concern for the administration . Other forms of military aid the u. S. Was providing to other countries. Have you ever heard of the administration being concerned about corruption in other countries and holding up military aid . Rep. Thornberry i can give you an analogous situation. I hope the administration is concerned about corruption to any recipient of aid. Ukraine has been a special case. It was such a bone of contention between members of both parties between congress and the Obama Administration to provide that military assistance to ukraine that i think it got special attention from me and others on the hill when it finally got approved and was held up and finally released. John we want to ask about a few hotspots around the world, starting with afghanistan. Almost 18 years into the war, more than 150,000 people killed, more than 1 trillion spent. This week, the Washington Post came out with a series of articles that contrasted the rosy statements being made in public by senior u. S. Officials with their private concerns that in effect the war is not winnable. An echo of the vietnam situation. We cant change the past, but some of the same arguments are still being made about the war in afghanistan. The mission is to prevent terrorists from ever having a safe haven there and we can lead once the Afghan Security forces are up and running enough to perform the mission. But it seems like we are still on the same hamster wheel. This end and how does this end . Rep. Thornberry i wish i knew the answer. I dont think any of us do. We still have some troop presence in korea decades after the korean war ended. Its to prevent north korea from attacking again the way they did in 1950. We still have some presence in europe and japan. It is not hard for any of us to tally up the costs, lives, and dollars from for what we had been doing in afghanistan since 2001. What is much harder for any of us is to tally up what the effort, those lives, have helped prevent from happening. I have to tell you, on september 12, 2001, i never thought we would go this long without a repeat of the tax of september 1. I could never prove what would have occurred if we have not done what we had done in afghanistan. I think it is important to emphasize, as you pointed out, the reason we have been there over these last 18 years is to prevent another 9 11, to prevent afghanistan from being used as a safe haven from which to launch terrorist attacks against us. And there has not been another terrorist attack launched against us, at least on that scale, from afghanistan. You can talk about some of the inspirational attacks and other things, but our efforts have been largely successful. Have there been disappointments along the way . Absolutely. The very good thing for the military to do this sort of self evaluation, what did we think we were going to accomplish . Did we overestimate the good that would come from it . What are the true measures of success . Thats what a military does. Thats why its a learning, evolving, improving organization. I worry a little bit that these sorts of exposes will make it less likely for people to be candid in these self evaluations in the future. I hope not. Because that is the way we get better. Let me followup. You lived through vietnam. What the Washington Post is reporting is over three administrations, president s bush, obama, and trump, they either lied or misled the American People. Does it concern you . Rep. Thornberry i am always concerned if someone intentionally lies or misleads congress or the American People. Of course i am. I think it is cheap to say this , or to haveart ii some effort to get some journalism prize or something with some big expose. Here is the question for us what , militarily were we trying to achieve . Did we achieve it . If not, why not . And did it matter . We have to look at the more objective sort of disappointments, and you can also say successes, on the ground. I worry that this sort of approach makes that sort of objective analysis harder to do. John President Trump has made no secret on the fact that he would like to see u. S. Troops get out of afghanistan. He was talked out of it a year or so ago. Now they are considering cutting by nearly half, roughly 13,000 troops that are there. Where do you stand . Would it be advisable to reduce the troop numbers . What do you think about the process of troops coming home . It sounds like you support the idea of keeping them there. Rep. Thornberry it depends on the conditions on the ground. To go back to basics, the reason we are there, and the only reason to keep them there is to protect americans here at home. While its not in the news a lot these days, i believe based on good information there is still a significant terrorist threat in afghanistan that threatens our homeland. Before we pull the plug and say ok, nevermind, we are done, we better find a way that terrorist threat against our homeland is going to be addressed. I will also say i have tremendous confidence in the commander in afghanistan, general miller. He has an incredible history that includes the black hawk down incident. He has been in afghanistan and iraq a number of times over the years. I trust his judgment completely. I also worry that if you get in too big of a rush to reach a negotiated agreement, the other side knows that, and all they waitve they have to do is you out and you will give concession. It may be appropriate to reduce our footprint, it would need to be consistent with our mission to protect the u. S. Homeland. And my view is there would need to be some reciprocity on the part of the taliban if we are going to significantly have fewer folks in the country. Joe if i could follow up on that, you mentioned the taliban, what is your assessment of the talks between the u. S. And the taliban . You are in afghanistan within the last several months. One criticism is those talks are undercutting the Afghan Government. Is there reason to be cautious in negotiations with the taliban . Rep. Thornberry there is abundant reasons to be cautious. I know the United States as well as the Afghan Government believe you can only get an agreement when you have afghans talking among themselves. It has been the taliban that has refused to sit down with the Afghan Government whom they consider to be illegitimate. What is going on now is a negotiation to get to a negotiation. Thats really what it amounts to. I dont know if it will work or not. I trust the taliban as far as i can throw them. I think the president , the ambassador, general miller they are some of the best this country can possibly produce for this situation. We will see what happens. Joe turning to syria, you said in april when President Trump moved to withdraw troops that it was a mistake. Subsequently, we know there is a small force of about 500 to protect the oil. Those troops face a complicated situation, with potential conflicts from units from turkey, russia, iran, the syrian government. Action does, what the Trump Administration owe americas kurdish partners in syria, and the American People . Rep. Thornberry the American People is the easiest one, it is clear, consistent explanations for what we are doing and why we are doing it. I think thats what the American People are owed with any sort of deployment. Back to afghanistan for just a second, one of my concerns is, especially during president obama and under President Trump, there has not been this sort of highlevel explanation of the mission and what the mission is designed to achieve that the American People need to hear. If you dont hear that month after month, year after year, then i think that starts to affect the way the American People see the mission. I think they are owed that. It is important that rather than withdraw completely from syria, we decided to leave troops to make sure isis does not reclaim the oil they use to finance many operations. It also provides a bit of a safe haven for our kurdish allies who have worked with us in the past and gives us a platform from which we can conduct antiisis operations in syria. Again, our number one interest in syria is to have the complete, total, and permanent elimination of isis to ensure they cannot continue to attack us and our allies. Syria is very complicated. The russians, iranians, and turks were all there before. Now they are in different positions. It makes it even more complicated. At least we are still there with some ability to influence events, especially those that relate to our National Security directly. We will turn to john donnelly. John lets turn to iran. There has been stepped up aggressive behavior by iran throughout the middle east region, from iraq, syria, yemen, the persian gulf waters, with everything from rockets, missiles, cyber, fast attack boats. Last june, the downing of the global hawk surveillance drone, attacks on commercial shipping, but the president was prepared to launch a counter also the attack on the Saudi Oil Facility the president was prepared to launch a counterattack back in june and he pulled back. Do you believe the decision to not respond emboldened iran . Whether it did or not, what should be done now . Rep. Thornberry i expect iran will take further aggressive, provocative actions in the coming weeks. Its the nature of that regime. They seem to be increasingly desperate with unrest within the country. One way these regimes have of dealing with internal dissent is to lash out and find an external enemy. As you may remember a couple of months ago, there were some iranian ships attacked in the persian gulf they have not yet had retaliation. I expect it is coming. I do think it is important to have a response. I nearly said proportional response and maybe proportional is in the eye of the beholder. Iran, like other revolutionary regimes, follow the old saying in, you probe len with a bayonet if you encounter mush, you proceed, if you encounter steel, you withdraw. Thats how they go about international relations. They will have to encounter some sort of steel, some sort of pushback, or else they will be more aggressive and all the disruptions that come with that, not just in their immediate a neighborhood, but throughout the middle east and the world, are going to ensue. Three American Families buried their sons, three killed at the Naval Air Station in pensacola, florida by a saudi pilot who was training with the u. S. Navy. The president was criticized for being tepid in his response, essentially reading a statement from the saudi king. Did that concern you . Rep. Thornberry i did not see the statement. In all of these cases, the one with pearl harbor a day or two before that, you need to conduct the investigation, see what you can find out about why the attack occurred, and take corrective action. In the case of the saudi, one clear and corrective action is better vetting of those sent here to train. We have some vetting of our own service members, we dont have the information to be able to do that for foreign nationals. Not just the saudis, but some sort of vetting standards for the people from other countries who come here to train would make a lot of sense. It is the key strength of ours that we work with other countries, that a lot of folks come here to train and develop an affinity for the u. S. Thats a good thing. Should the president have been more forceful in his condemnation of the shooting by a saudi pilot . Rep. Thornberry i did not see the statement. You should always condemn an act of violence, especially with tragic consequences for u. S. Service members. Why did this happen . Take steps to correct it, and some of the initial steps are being taken, but we need to know more about why the guy did it, why he was radicalized, if he could have been caught earlier. Those sorts of things. Joe budget question. 2020, itsad to ironic a lot of our conversation has focused on the mideast, when the administrations National Security strategy Defense Strategy is focused on russia and china. The pentagon is increasingly realizing it will have to make budgetary tradeoffs. The projections for the budget looking ahead seeing mostly flat, even though the administration has tried to make a case for increases. Given that the budget may be flat, what sorts of tradeoffs would you like the pentagon to be making to focus more on russia and china . What kind of outdated hardware should it get rid of . What should it be buying more of . How does the committee make that happen . Rep. Thornberry back in the Obama Administration, they were big on the pivot to asia, implying you pivot to asia away from the middle east. It turns out the middle east doesnt let you go. I think you are exactly right. The new National Defense strategy focuses more on the near peer competitors like russia and china, but the challenge of our times is we also have to Pay Attention to iran, north korea, terrorists, and other challenges. What i am hopeful about is the current secretary of defense, and general millie, the current chairman of the joint chiefs, together held what they called night court. They would be at the pentagon night after night going through every program in the army seeking justification on why it would continue and they made a number of decisions and cut programs. I think they are taking that approach to the wider dod and the other services are following along and taking a similar approach. They will be making some tough tradeoffs. They have to come to us and say they will quit buying something, give us the reason, but there may be some in congress who try and overturn it. It will be part of a give and take, depending on the rationale for these decisions. We are not going to cut our way into having all of the capability we need to go up against russia and china. The independent commission that looked at the National Defense strategy says we need 3 to 5 real growth consistently to catch up, especially in areas where we are behind, like hypersonics and counterintelligence. We have a lot of work to do in readiness and developing the capability we need. Absolutely, we are going to have to make tough decisions, but we are not going to cut our way into success. The ranking republican on the House Armed Services committee, retiring at the end of his term. Congressman, thank you. Rep. Thornberry thank you for having me. Lets turn to the issue of ukraine. Did you get a satisfying answer . Joe im not sure we did. Whats interesting about the answer is mac thornberry, the Top Republican on the House Armed Services committee actually hadnt heard the rationale for the hold on ukraine aid and for the release of ukraine aid. I think that says a lot. The lack of an answer said something. Your point about the space force and how the programs continue to escalate over time in the federal government. John its Encouraging Congress set a limit this year and going forward, as well. Everyone knows bureaucracies exist to grow. Maybe it is true the air force couldnt do this job itself because there are so many differences between the domain of air and space, but i dont know if its necessarily true. The concern is once you have this new organization, it is hard to unring the bell once its created. Hes one of a growing list of House Republican members retiring at the end of their term. What is the sentiment among gop lawmakers . Once in the majority, now the minority. That has a lot to do with it. The prospects in the near term for republicans retaking the house seems unlikely. It is not a lot of fun to be in the minority. On this defense bill this year, they did a pretty incredible job of getting their way. Not a single republican voted in favor of the democrat written Defense Authorization bill back in june. They got their way in the conference where the president even tweeted wow, we got everything we wanted in this bill. The progressive groups are outraged. Joe i think democrats at the time, when the House Armed Services committee moved to pass the bill and republicans on the committee wouldnt vote for it, i think they were pretty stunned. It is typically the committee has a long bipartisan tradition. Mac thornberry was chairman for a long time, adam schiff was Ranking Member for a long time. They get along very well. In this case, they were having an unusual partisan division on the bill worked to the advantage of the republicans during negotiations with the democrat house and republican controlled senate. The selfimposed term limits between House Republicans, is it good or bad . John they probably dont like it so much. It depends on which members. The ones that have more seniority tend to be more in favor of it. This is pure speculation, but it may play a role in Mac Thornberrys decision to leave congress, that eventually he will not be in a leadership position. Thanks for being with us on newsmakers. We appreciate it. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2019] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] a busy agenda for the house next week. On tuesday, members are expected to work on a government funding bill. On wednesday, they plan to take up articles of impeachment against President Trump and hold a final vote, which would hold up a trial in the senate. Later in the week, the u. S. Mexicocanada trade agreement
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