Transcripts For CSPAN Former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis O

Transcripts For CSPAN Former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis Others Discuss Coronavirus Global... 20240713

Thanks, and welcome everyone. When we held our First Virtual Discussion Forum six weeks ago, i dont know if we would have imagined this would become, as it has, such a wonderful ongoing series. We are incredibly fortunate to be able to draw upon a network here at jackson of our senior fellows, faculty, and our friends. One such former senior fellow is sir general graeme lamb. Graeme has taught at jackson for number of years, is a retired army officer who served for 38 years, including as commander of the field army. General lamb is a renowned expert on leadership, on crisis planning, and counterinsurgency. He served in Senior Leadership roles in iraq and afghanistan alongside the u. S. Generals petreus, crystal, and mattis, further cementing that special bond that connects the United States and united kingdom. Graeme is a dear friend and i am grateful he has taken the time, along with your friends over your right shoulder, in the cool helmet, to join us. We are delighted today to be joined by general jim mattis, who served as the United States secretary of defense following a storied career in the United States marine corps. General mattis rose over the course of four decades, was commander of u. S. Central command, and while all of that is probably well known, what ight not be well known is that when graeme was teaching at yale, he ask our students to lay out their strategy for afghanistan, and as a prize, he told the students he would send the best essays to general mattis to grade, which he did. So, general mattis, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your service to our country and hey, thanks for grading those papers. At this time, i would like to hand it back to the person who will run our conversation today. Thanks. Thank you so much, jim, and thank you secretary mattis and general lamb for being with us this afternoon, or this evening, in general lambs case, in the u. K. I want to ask secretary mattis, ask you to reflect for a moment on the significance of the covid19 event. How big a magnitude do you assess this from a perspective . A perspective of global ignificance . What are the key historical parallels that come to mind as you think about your previous career of service, and grappling with all sorts of International Security challenges, large and small . What is it that concerns you most about what we are seeing right now . Are interested in your we are interested in your perspectives to kick off the conversation. Thank you, ted, and to everyone for having me here. We have to be careful, as a Great Western philosopher put it, about making predictions, especially about the future. We are flying to a degree blind right now, as far as many of the specifics. No matter how authoritative some people sound, they are using assumptions to give predictions. Those assumptions will be proven or disproven in the weeks and months ahead as more data about this nasty little bugger of a virus becomes known and we see how people respond in our scientific medical community response. I would say without a doubt, you can make some broad generalizations. One of which would be the impact if we go back in our own histories, of those of us on this screen, including our own students, certainly the impact will be greater than 9 11. I think that can probably be quantified even at this point. The impact will be on the global order, it will be economics, it will be on the social order, and i think that the denial of this by certain government figures anywhere they are in the world s very unwise. I think a recession is very likely, and a depression, global, is a possible outcome. We will have to see on how we do on reopening, but i will also say that the fragilities being exposed to the International Order, to people who thought just in time supply chains with single sources was economically wise, that will be shaken. But more importantly, leadership competence is going to be evaluated differently. I mean, we all enter into some kind of social contract that we will pay taxes and give authority to people who will take care of us, make sure the prosperity and the safety, and security of the country is there, and when you see the social cohesion breaking down under populism, it has gained some strength at this point, gained strength to a breakdown of cohesion. What is underpinning social cohesion, the social contract is being washed away to a degree. Now, that is not true everywhere. One of the things that is happening is the International Order, where we had come to give respect and support, whether it be the united nations, the European Union, the world health organization, they have been tested, and in many cases rejected as part of the solution or even part of the problem. I think the International Bodies were already under a certain amount of stress, but we are going to see now, covid has really given them a tougher test. As we go forward right now, we are going to have to see if the sovereignty of the state and the nationalist tendencies go too far, from sequestering medical supplies, closing borders, turning off sharing of information, or does this drive us towards a hey, we are all in this together, viruses do not Pay Attention to borders, we are all going to have to come out of it . These are questions that will rely heavily on the Political Leadership for answers. Governance effectiveness will be written this time in many peoples conscience. There are going to be people who are scared and scarred by this for years to come. We will have to address it as we go forward. We have seen good Political Leadership in countries in historical times like this, bring them out stronger. We have also seen regimes collapse regimes collapse, political structures, countries collapse, so it will be interesting to see how we respond. In world war ii, the trauma of all that and the Great Depression that preceded it, we did a lot of things together. I think it is to be determined if we are going to become more interrelated, integrated, interdependent, or try to go our own way, which i think would be a horrible outcome. Let me pass it over to sir graeme and see what he thinks. Dont you hate following someone like jim mattis . He has set me up for failure here. It has been my good fortune to have spent time with people like this, but i would reinforce what general mattis said. I think the real danger is we probably individually as nations can deal with the symptoms, the results of this damn virus. We can contain, control it. We can get around it. If you want to deal with the cause, another way sars, mers, keep going back through history, this damn thing is coming around again. The next turn of the wheel, if you do not address the cause of these pandemics, then we will be attacked in a way which could be more of a greater magnitude than the one we are facing right now. An attack is exactly the right term. You know, as a soldier, it is quite simple. Our responsibilities are to rotect our people, our prosperity, and way of life. 9 11 hit all those three. This damn pandemic has most certainly smoked all three in a serious way. I think we havent seen the end of it by any manner or means, and if we are not careful, the outcome of prosperity, the global economy, will affect our children and childrens children. So dealing with the cause whether it is wet markets in asia, whether it is bushmeat markets in africa, whether it is in south america, all of these things can only be addressed as collective, as part of an allied cause to deal with something which will rip our hearts out and take away their future our future and our childrens future if we dont address it. So i think the importance of reaffirming what it is to be an ally it is not the convenience, it is not comfortable, not tangible. An ally requires commitment. It takes time and trust. It does all that, but it is over a huge amount of time. In preparation for this, i came upon what i think is probably the most accurate articulation of what an ally is, and it was the natchez and, secretary of state, dean after send dean atchison, secretary of state, 1949, when they went to sign the nato treaty in ashington. His line was simply this, the reality which is set down here is not created here, the reality is the unity of belief, of spirit, of interests, of the community of nations represented here is the product of many centuries of common thought and the blood of many simple and brave men and women, and it is well that these truths be known. That is what it is to be an ally. That is what it takes to deal with something. Dont throw blame. In the 1930s, the blame was on us to allow germany to rearm, how we the englishspeaking people, through our carelessness and good nature allowed the wicked to be rearmed. The guilt lay with germany, the damn blame lay with us. If we do not recognize that now, and that is across government, thats across all political parties, the social contract, it is in fact the great work being done by commerce and business look at bill gates. What a fantastic effort he has put into trying to grapple with this problem and bring those parts together in an allied cause, no different than the Marshall Plan. If we do that, we might just have a chance as we look forward. If we dont, the answer is the future is going to be challenging. If you think we will be ok alone, you absolutely will not. Thank you so much, general lamb. I want to give general mattis an opportunity to respond to that, who has of course written very passionately about the mportance of allies and allies to United States interests and the world order. Your service in nato and other eadership roles, working closely with allies. General mattis, what would a greater allied approach look like, do you think, in the current covid19 context . It is not, of course, a traditional military threat, but are there military, defense leadership planning lessons you might apply to how you would approach this broader Global Challenge . Just the fact that yale has graeme on right now, i used to remind my american officers that not all the good ideas come from the nation with the most aircraft carriers. Graeme lamb, who has never received public acclaim for it, but he is the one who broke the enemys logic in iraq and led to the shift in our tactics and approach, for which some american generals have been given credit. In fact, it came from allies. The three things i learned about defending america from any threat over 40 odd years of you paying my tuition were allies, allies, allies. I do not know how to construct, whether it be against covid or against fascism or communism or militarism, i do not know how to defend america, because we dont just defend a geographic realm, although i could not defend that without allies either, but the realm of ideas that grew out of the reformation, the enlightenment, and those are passed to us, as George Washington put it, for our safekeeping. We will see if the idea of a republic like this can survive. Like lincoln asked on the gettysburg battlefield, can the nation see a long survival . What with the Lessons Learned from history, to answer your question directly, what would they look like . Clearly you need intelligence. You need to see Something Like this early, or see it coming, so the person you would do is have the first thing you would do is have something, maybe call up the world health organization. We would be all honest in our reporting, and we would be urgent. We would report quickly. It would go into some sort of international group, whether it be in one location or connected by the internet, as we have the capability to do today, and the best minds in the world would be working together to shortstop this thing, and people with warning could use it. Political leaders would be guided by science and medicine, not by narcissism, and quickly decide to start taking action that would be based on a compilation of scientific and medical opinions of what are the most effective ways to stop this, reverse it, save life. This is something that begs the human problemsolving approach of collaboration, of getting together. The ascent of our species has been dependent on this, and it is as if we have lives of long, fat, dumb, happy, we think we dont need allies, things like the Marshall Plan or nato to defend its idea of democracy. When you get to that point, then you have really strayed from what we call the greatest generations view of how you live on this planet. They came back from world war ii and they said, a depression that left 20 of the boys draft into the army had to be fattened up before they could even start training, because the malnutrition in our country was so bad. They came back from a war where hundreds of thousands of their buddies died and said, it is a crummy world and we are part of it whether we like it or not. They were very pragmatic they are called the greatest generation, not just because hey stopped fascism in its tracks, but because as truman put it, if we not only whipped fascism, we welcomed the japanese, german, and italian people back into the community of nations because they recognize that we needed to band together if we werent going to just keep revisiting this. So how did we get to a point today where we are closing borders, shutting off the sharing of information, we are now penalizing people who want to work more broadly in the best interests of humanity, and so i think what you want to do is read your history and understand why did the greatest generation come home and put the imf and the world bank in place . Well, it is so people who lost all economic hope or prosperity and a good life for their children did not have to turn to a shaven head fascist named mussolini for hope. There was a lender of last resort out there. So where is the lender of last resort right now in this world for hope against covid . We are all scrambling to put it ogether, and thank god for the nongovernmental organizations, plus theres some some there is some democracies have done well, taiwan, israel, new zealand, australia, the republic of korea, everyone is stressed by it, but this is not the failure of some of the democracies to deal with this well. It was a choice. It is not a given. It was a choice and when you have bad strategies, whether war r peace, people die. Those would be some of the lessons i would bring up to expand on what graeme brought up about the allies. I dont know how you do this without allies. Call me crazy, but 40 years i served this country and i was privileged to fight many times against enemies i dont know how you fight this enemy without allies, and i never thought fought those fights in an allamerican formation before. It was always alongside allies. Something has gone wrong here. 2014, 70 nations combined to go after isis. That was an international coalition. After 9 11, we had the largest Wartime Coalition in modern history was fighting because new york city had been attacked. Fighting in afghanistan, grew to 50 nations. Look where we are today. The australian ambassador when they told me that america made the single most sacrificial ledge in World History after world war ii. I was thinking, you mean the Marshall Plan . No, not the Marshall Plan. It is when you set up nato. After world war ii you couldve have said europe, that is it, thats twice in 25 years you have dragged us into one of your silly, stupid wars. We are through, turning to latin america, asia, africa, and the middle east. You are on your own with the soviet forces in germany. Instead, he said your nation pledged 100 million dead americans in a nuclear war to protect democracy in europe. I question if we could make the pledge today. Back over to you. I want your reaction to that, general lamb, this question of leadership in the Current Crisis general mattis referenced a number of countries performing reasonably well, allied nations that are performing perhaps better than the United States and the u. K. In confronting covid. Are there any particular leaders that have impressed you, or more generally what are some of the qualities in a crisis like this that leaders need to nationally convey . I think there was an interesting, if anything, my experience is that in a time of crisis, most people think we had a crisis in 2008, and these were serious events, a crisis is defined by unpredictability, uncertainty. Covid is a classic example. We are scrambling even now to understand the nature of this virus. You go back to franklin roosevelt, 1933, the one thing we have to fear is fear itself, so what you do is you get this enormous energy being shot through. Theodore roosevelts great lecture in 1910, later on in that speech when he talks about journalism for being a force for good, you get a great deal of speaking to people, who then say this is not working. It is broken. The impression is it is happening everywhere, but it is not. My entire life has been about that, but getting it right. So when you look at character, character is really exposed in times of great crisis. Inston churchill, he was complicated, complex, but that lovely line, never turn his back, but pressed forward, never [inaudible] a battle to fight. Hurchill spent his entire life falling down and failing, getting up and getting on. When you are in hell, keep going. And so the character defined by nietzsche, that very complicated german, austrian, character is ore often defined by the experiences a person has not ad, then by the experiences he has. And so what we find in our leadership is a lot of people who have been very successful, their life has been pretty easy. It hasnt been presented with, all these people in truly haotic situations, great uncertainty, lifeanddeath have recognized the responsibility and have leaders have grown within that so they are fit for their time, fit for their moment. What you want is to make sure that people look at our leadership and do ask that it, isnt fit for purpose . Are the individuals or collectives leading and demonstrating a level of thoughtfulness in this crisis . Take for instance, i think it was Benjamin Franklin, the first american, he had 13 virtues. These are the things a we look for in many wa

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