Advance. Everyone needs a chance to prosper. And broadband, the internet, modern communications is to us what pencil and tablet was to my greatgrandparents 100 years ago. Peter lets bring our guest reporter, gopal ratnam, from cq roll call into our conversation. Gopal thank you for having me, peter. And congressman lucas, thank you for taking this time to speak. I want to ask you about the proposal you have, that you put out in january, asking for an increase in spending on federal r d. Among the things that you called for is a boost in spending on Artificial Intelligence, biotech and quantum computing. But given the pandemic we are amidst now, 120,000 plus americans have died, is there anything that you would change in terms of areas of focus, areas of research where such federal spending to be applied . Could be applied . Rep. Lucas i think what we have seen in recent weeks demonstrates not just the need, but the magnitude of the resources that are necessary. When legislation was being put together, my focus was how do we stay ahead of our International Competitors . How do we make sure we are on the front edge on all of these technologies . Now with the pandemic problems we face, there are extra issues. Its been devastating to many of the Research Universities and private Research Foundations and enterprises, this literal shut down for two or three months we have gone through. How do we restart that . I along with members of the committee have had conversations with various entities out there, public and private universities, across landscapes. Whats going to happen to graduate students, Research Projects . Where are the Doctoral Students in their program . How many people will be available when we do restart . How do we define restart . How much of the Research Done will be lost . Are the deadlines on the grants and programs that these highly skilled and technical people, bright individuals, are there limits to stepping back in . We are trying to work through all of that. I dont know we will truly appreciate the damage perhaps for months or years to come. And that is all subject to addressing the fundamental issue of the pandemic. On the science committee, weve we are very focused on the National Science foundation, cdc and all of those entities that develop the skills and research to create the vaccine. Until we have a way to address the root problem i vaccinate i am a farmer by trade. I vaccinate my cattle for a dozen Different Things and im very sensitive about usda and agate departments of working to keep viruses out of this country. But until we can develop an effective vaccine program, when does this end . Is this like polio in the 1940s and 1950s in the United States . That is before my birth, but i have listen to my parents and grandparents talk about the fear every latesummer about the latest outbreak. That was addressed with a vaccine. We have to have a vaccine or an effective antibody treatment to address covid19. But even then, i suspect this is like the flu, it will be with us every year for the rest of human existence. Which explains the enthusiasm by the pharmaceutical companies. Gopal interesting you mentioned as a farmer, the number of vaccines you have to impart to your animals. In that context, i want to ask you a little bit about the overall science and scientific culture in the country. Because in your proposal, for example, you talk about how china is raising ahead the is racing ahead the United States or trying to get ahead of us in a variety of areas and they have increased their r d spending the last decade or so. It seems as if in the United States, there is a sliding back of scientific culture. There is the growing antivaccine movement. The republican party, for example, back in the mid1990s was advocating for an office of Technology Assessment which is part of congress. How do you place the scientific culture in the country . Is there an antiscience mentality that could potentially be contributing to this slowing of federal expenditure, r d in other areas . Rep. Lucas the focus in congress in my time has been more away from science and defense, more away from brickandmortar, towards Immediate Gratification and social programs. Thats been driven not just by republicans, but by democrats. Things that create an Immediate Response back home amongst the constituency. That is part of the problem. I would suggest part of the problem is the unintended consequences of the wonderful concept of the internet and the constant freeflowing information and discussion. Not all the freeflowing information and discussion is factually accurate. In many ways, the internet is more like a gossip chamber than a thoughtful philosophical debate laboratory. Im not sure how we overcome that. In my town meetings, and i did 32 live meetings a year before the pandemic. I want to go back to live town meetings again. You will be surprised the amount of time in recent years i would spend discussing something that has come off the internet. Sometimes reasonable. Sometimes so outlandish that youd have to think about it for a moment before you could answer it in a logical fashion. But all these things together are producing this. Well know when an effective covid19 vaccine develops and is available in mass distribution who really is willing to take a chance. If you are comfortable enough that by not vaccinating yourself or your loved ones that everyone else in the neighborhood is going to do that and you will be safe, thats beyond selfish. But thats the underlying mentality. We have the safest Health Standards in the world. The most regulated pharmaceutical programs in the world. We have an army of trial lawyers waiting to address any fallout. Im confident in where we are. I just want to make sure that the Scientific Community, whether it is Public Research or private research, has the ability, the resources, and the individual to do that. Theyve got us to where we are. Things like the National Science foundation. Just an amazing accomplishment. Even areas like darpa, the department of defense, their research programs. Sometimes you have to look down the trail, as we say in the Third District of oklahoma, a month or a year or a decade or a century in order to make these investments. This Immediate Gratification, the internet, prioritizing for shortterm spending, it is it has all made it harder. That is why when i became the opportunity to become Ranking Member of the science committee, my focus has been to rebuild the bipartisan nature of the committee. The culture i came from from the agriculture committee. The culture i would like to see on the other committee, financial services. We need to get back to where it is a team effort for the common good. But right now in congress, does not matter who the majority is or who the minority is, that is hard to accomplish. Because Everyone Wants to go to the corner and scream. Well, that guarantees you so much time on television each night with a talking head from the right or the left, but it does not develop a thoughtful policy for the longterm future. Peter that said, how would you describe your relationship with the chair of the science committee, representative Bernice Johnson . Rep. Lucas i have a wonderful relationship with her. Shes oldschool, calm, focused, rational. Willing to work across the line. Now we have some excitable democrats and republicans on the committee. Thats the nature of every committee. The chairwoman and i, i think we have a really Good Relationship and i am comfortable in saying if the roles are reversed someday, and we have reelections every two years, anything can happen, i think i would have just as strong a relationship with her if she were my Ranking Member. Peter gopal ratnam. Gopal one of the things you talk about in your proposal is how china is focused on Artificial Intelligence and has promised to become a Global Leader on that particular front by the end of this decade. Now, what would it take in the United States to keep pace or stay ahead . Is it just more money . Is it attracting more talented people from around the world . Is it sort of improving the scientific culture and the basic k12 . What would it take . Rep. Lucas i think it is a combination of all of those things. As a percentage of gdp, the money we spend on science is not what it once was. That needs to be addressed. That is for the appropriations process. Entities like the National Science foundation. You are entirely correct about stem, recreating the pipeline for the young engineers, those young mathematicians, those young individuals. And making sure in stem programs that we are focused on the brightest with the greatest possible potential, no matter what part of the country you come from, no matter what kind of background you have. If you have the ability, encourage and develop those skills. That is an important part of the process. Also, many of my colleagues on the committee are focused on how do you protect those assets . Protect those assets once they are achieved . Theres a lot of discussion in the committee that are part of a number of competitors efforts around the world not just in developing their own skills, but acquiring as Much Technology as can possibly be acquired through whatever means are available from the rest of us. Property rights matter, intellectual Property Rights matter. How do we balance all those things out . It is a comprehensive package. Unfortunately for most of my lifetime, we have been so successful in this country that the citizens and congress and technically the leadership of many administrations have taken this for granted. Thats not the case anymore. The chinese with their 2025 program. Made in 2025 is the way the reference it. They are bound and determined that the way to jump ahead of us economically and in every other way is to seize the scientific frontier. If you dont have to create the science from scratch, it is cost effective. Those are all issues we have to deal with. Right now, covid19 and the pandemic have the country looking for the scientific enterprise for help, for a response. I think we have to use this opportunity to move us forward. Peter go ahead, gopal. Gopal i was going to ask, one of the strengths of the american scientific enterprise of the last three decades has been the capacity and the ability to attract and retain some of the best talent from around the world. Even today, some of the top Artificial Intelligence experts at stanford are literally firstgeneration immigrants. Now, is the current immigration approach somehow running counter to this idea that the United States will continue to be a scientific leader . Because it seems as if the signals from the United States are sending out is basically saying dont come here. Is that running counter to goals like the ones that you have of increasing more spending on r d and attracting talent . Lucas the attitudes towards immigrants right now across the spectrum makes a variety of things more challenging. I represent 16 native american tribes in my district. 39 different American Indian tribes in oklahoma. I always remind my constituents when we have a discussion about immigration that unless you are an American Indian, you are immigrant or you are the son of an immigrant. That is all the rest of us. We need to be respectable of that. Was the indentured english servants who were the first farmhands on the east coast or my german ancestors or the irish and the chinese who built the railroads, or the italians who built the lines. You have to respectful towards that. I understand the importance of maintaining the integrity of the country with physical and health security, but we have to draw upon the best and brightest possible people. The concept to me is still valid. In Enterprises Like science, or for that matter any form of business, it got us to where we are today. Where we have been without the scientists that fled europe in the 1930s . This would be a different world and it would not be a good world. Gopal would you say maybe the United States needs to keep the door open for some of the brightest to come from around the world to american universities and Research Labs . Rep. Lucas absolutely, but we have to have an orderly process governed by the rule of law. Most of my constituents are excited not so much about people who might come in with scientific skills, but the potential ability to add to the United States the base of knowledge. But they are more concerned about unlimited immigration, on the borders on all directions. Again, the rule of law. There has to be an orderly structure. If you just leave the gates open, i dont know where we would put the extra billion or 2 billion people we would have shortly. And i would not blame them for coming. Again, i am not a native american so i am a descendent of people who came over in some fashion. Peter congressman lucas, we have talked about investments. Were talking to you and you are in rural oklahoma today. What kind of telecommunications availability do you have where you are, and when would you foresee 5g being in your home . Rep. Lucas first off, i am serviced by an independent phone company. They do a really good job considering how far out in the countryside i am. But when i do a little speed check on my equipment, my access is approximately half the speed of my District Office in yukon, oklahoma. That is a percentage of whats available to me when i am in the nations capitol in d. C. I adjust to it, i accommodate it. But clearly, it is not equitable across the countryside and that is what the goal of these various bills are, using things like universal broadband to fund broadband and traditional phone lines. I cant give you an optimistic date. I just know that if the whole of a country has to prosper, we all have to have access. It will be difficult the farther and farther away we get. Right now on broadband development, communities that want to access the money for rural areas, if you take notice, they tend to want to deploy it in the very fringes of the suburbs. The fingers of the rural areas. Again, customers per mile versus miles per customer. I understand that. That is why in the infrastructure bill in a comprehensive package, still we have to continue to push out in the countryside. I promise you the younger generation, for that matter anybody under 40, they are not going to live in an area where they dont have access to modern communications, if they dont have access to broadband with modern ability. That will continue to brain drain rural america. Peter do you think huawei should be part of the development of broadband and 5g in the United States . From the briefing papers i have read and the things i am familiar with and committees i serve on and my colleagues that serve on a variety of other committees, i am still a bit suspicious about huawei. The chinese model is so dramatically different than the western model. They still practice truly political communism. In the bigger resources of the country, they still dominated in a state owned manner. I get inherently suspicious of that. But i depend on my colleagues that have greater access to work on legislation that particularly goes after that point. Peter gopal. Gopal speaking of huawei, one of the things that i think some of the smaller telecom companies, both here in the u. S. And elsewhere have said, the advantage of using the huawei equipment is it is much less expensive. Two, they are providing this 5g bandwidth that is most ideal and can propagate long distances. For example, in rural part of oklahoma, it is probably more costeffective to set up huawei equipment than some of the more pricier ones. Are we doing the right thing here . Are we balancing those two kinds of needs . Or do you think the danger of working with, like you said, a communist partyled company to dangerous to consider that balance . Rep. Lucas if i thought there was going to be dramatic changes in the chinese political model, id probably have a more accommodating attitude. Im old enough to have watched the video clips of tiananmen square. I have a sufficient understanding of the different political models, that i dont see them adopting our western culture in a variety of things. I believe if you simply go with price, ultimately, you may have the greatest for a short period of time. But what happens when you dont have industry anymore to pay for all of those things . You have the cheapest goods if in the most plentiful way. If you dont care how they are made, dont care where they come from, dont care about the net effect on your economy. But at what point do you no longer have anything left in the country to buy those goods and services with . Its a balance. Understand, i am also from the Agricultural Energy area. We sell ag products and Energy Products around the world and in asia in a big way. So i understand the need for a flow of commerce back and forth. I am not a onesided individual. But there are just certain things where you cannot let an entity like the Chinese Government as it now functions to be in total control of critical elements of your society and future. Gopal one of the things that is really, from my reporting, i have seen