With our National Political editor. Good morning, dan. I read your column this morning on the front page of the post. Why not give viewers a [laughter] late night and an early morning. My god, what a horrible mistake. Im so sorry. Front page of the Washington Post, give viewers a thumbnail of what you wrote today. I think that the sum and substance of the debate is that the Vice President , mike pence, came armed with the case he wanted to make against joe biden, the Democratic Party, and Kamala Harris. Time and again it is clear that what undermines the case most significantly is the prison he works for, President Trump. It was obvious really from the getgo when the discussion focused on the coronavirus pandemic and the administration handling of it. The Vice President in essence recycling statements the president has made repeatedly over many months, which he himself has said, touting what they claim is a great record against all the evidence of how this country has a much higher death toll than any major industrialized country in the and, as senator harris and moderator susan page both asked, why is that the case . It was a tough night for him to try to do what he wanted to do. The administration, the campaign, the trump folks would like to make this election a choice, not a referendum. But we were reminded again last night that it is a referendum on the president of the united states. Dan, let me get your thoughts on something. A lot of comments have been made about the fact that none of the comments asked by susan page or actually answered, particularly from Vice President pence. But each candidate seemed to have a question that they were asked that they visibly dodged. When it came to Vice President pence it was the idea of excepting a peaceful transfer of power. For senator harris, it was the question about adding members to the Supreme Court in response to a confirmation, and expected confirmation of judge amy coney barrett. Do you think the fact that harris and pentz both dodged those questions will hurt either campaign . Not particularly, but i thought it was quite revealing on both their parts. I say not particularly in part, jonathan, because the electorate in this country for the most part, people have made up their minds about where they stand. People are already voting without necessarily watching these debates or even in spite of watching these debates. But i thought that those were both very important moments. The issue of pledging a peaceful transfer of power is about as easy a question that a politician can get. Who existedce before he became Vice President would have had no trouble answering that in the affirmative. His problem is that the president will not commit to that and the Vice President is intensely loyal to him, often to a fault. I think that makes it impossible for him to do what probably in his got is the thing he should do, which is to say yes, we will abide by the results of the selection. I thought that for senator harris, she is also following the lead of the person at the top of the ticket. Vice President Biden has resisted answering this question since it came up, since the nomination, or actually since the vacancy after the death of justice ginsburg. The fact that he will not answer it is obviously telling and the fact that she would not do it last night is also telling. Its a pretty straightforward question. Would you do it, would you consider it. He does not want to answer that question because he knows it would stir controversy. He will have to, he will have to judgeith that issue if barrett is confirmed and he becomes president. There will be pressure from a lot of parts of the Democratic Party to do exactly that. Came on airre we here, online, the commission for president ial debates announced that the next president ial debate that was supposed to be in miami is going to be virtual. You have covered many debates over your career. What do you think it will do to the tenor in the tone of that president ial debate . That and what happened last week are likely to make the tone of the coming debate somewhat closer to what last night was. But so much of that will depend on how the president decides to conduct himself. If he comes in again determined to, to be super aggressive, then we might, we might have a repeat of that. I think its a little harder when the two men will be in different locations. Harderou know, its just to conduct that kind of performance when you are remote. So, well see. Ive always said to people that, you know, debates depend on the attitude of the participants. If people come to debate, they will debate. If they choose to come to be disruptive, they will be disruptive. They will do what they think is in their political interest. I think we will have to wait and see what the president decides he wants to do in the next debate. But it will certainly feel different. Part of that debate will be held in miami. The citizens in the town hall will be in miami, as will steve scully, the moderator for the debate. The principles will not be there, they will be in different locations. Last night people always talk about, and you may have mentioned this in your column in the Washington Post, the Vice President ial debates dont usually have much of an impact on the race. But last night, because the two principles of the campaigns are both in their 70s, i think people, or do you think people were looking at the debate in looking at these two candidates as potential president s . And do you think that they succeeded in telegraphing their message . Particularly senator Kamala Harris, who compared to Vice President pence, is still relatively unknown in that regard. I think it would have been impossible for anyone to watch that debate and nothing about the fact that one of those two could end up as president before 2024. When you are dealing with older men, with Health Issues, particularly the president right now, but Vice President pence has had Health Issues in the past. Everyone who came to the debate was looking at them with that in mind. I also think that really from the beginning, since she was nominated or chosen by Vice President biden to be the running mate, senator harris has been seen as someone who is capable and ready to be president , if she is asked to step in. I think that her background, her record, or visibility, the fact that she has run for president has helped to equip her to pass that bar. So, i think that last nights performance probably only reinforced that with the public. I want to end the discussion here with a great question. In all your years of political reporting, conventions, debates, president ial campaigns, have you ever seen a situation as surreal as the fly landing on a candidates head in the middle of a most important moment in their career . I cant remember one. There may well have been one. Strange creatures can get into an open hall and do things. But i cant remember one. Particularly landing, a fly landing right on the head of a whitehaired man. There was no missing what was happening. The Vice President , if he knew it, he was well composed and perhaps he didnt even realize what happened. Being what it is, the fly had a twitter account and followers within moments of it happening. Dan, weve got to go, thank you so much as always for coming on this morning. Thanks, jonathan. Lets get over to the opinion side of the paper where you will find my colleague bruce marcus and mark ruth. Karen tell multi . [laughter] you know what . The show, viewers, im so sorry, karen, thank you so much. [laughter] rails, like the first debate. Well, you know what . Saw, it was 8 09, so about seven minutes ago President Trump was on fox News Business and he said that hes not going to participate in a virtual debate. As we were just talking about with dan earlier. The commission on president ial debates announced that next weeks debates are supposed to be in miami between president s trump and biden, they are supposed to be virtual but now the president says he will not participate in a virtual debate. Mark, let me start with you. Can he well, obviously can do that, but is it to his advantage to do that . Shouldnt he show up in up for a debate given where he is in the polls . If his doctors clear him, theres no reason to have a virtual debate. Its simple, either his doctors say hes not transmitting disease and is ok, or hes not. Theres a little bit of hysteria going on here. But look, he does need to participate because he doesnt want the debate, the last debate to be the last impression people have of him on a debate stage. And its in the interest of the American People to have candidates in person debate. Karen . Hes got to debate. It is the debate commissions call on what the format should be. At this point i mean, the president was in the oval office yesterday. Something that raised a lot of eyebrows. Health experts, for someone in his situation. At this point it shouldnt be just a question of his doctors. It should be a question of what Public Health experts believe. If he shows up, its not just his own health that is at risk. As we are seeing with whats going through the white house right now. Lets talk about last nights debate, karen. Debate move the needle in any way . I think not. Moments,e few if any except for a cameo appearance by a fly. I think it basically just reinforced both sides. It was really the trumppence ticket that needed a reset here, if you believe the polls at the moment. So in that sense, they were the losers. Market . I think that pence was the winner on points. Donald trump said to watch it he handledbout how himself. He anticipated every attack from Kamala Harris and had an answer ready. He was very effective. Was probably the winner because she didnt make any catastrophic mistakes that could be used against her, and two, they are ahead. Candidate who is behind needs to change the trajectory of the race. Mike pence did an outstanding job, but you know, donald trump needs to really study the way he did it. Particularly what he did, he knew what the attacks were going to be and he waited and let her say the things that he was going to then rebut. Donald trump didnt let joe biden get a word in edge wise. I think that trump needs to go ahead and learn from this and be , let his opponent speak. Do you agree with mark . Did Vice President pence when it on points . I just dont, they were both pretty cautious. As dan pointed out a few moments ago, they were essentially playing defense for their principles. Of hard to its kind score a debate of this sort, where you essentially have two surrogates debating on points. To get yourwant reaction to something. I saw lots of traffic on twitter, particularly towards the end of the debate, quite a bit of commentary going on in the morning after the debates, talking about Vice President pences demeanor. And his demeanor towards the moderator, susan page, of usa opponent, Kamala Harris. Folks have called it condescending, mans planing mansplaining. Im looking for the words. From your perspective, how did you see his demeanor when it came to the women on stage with him. Im going to be interested in seeing, these are these things that you sometimes dont fully understand until a day or two after the debate, but i think there is a real danger here. He did two things, he completely ignored the female moderators rules thatenforce both of the campaigns had agreed to. He also ignored what the questions were. They both did that to some extent. Pence more so. I am skeptical that this is the kind of thing that, you know, suburban women sitting there watching at home, this is a big constituency that the Trump Campaign is struggling with, would necessarily find that appealing. In the Hollywood Reporter they ran a piece saying that pence appeared condescending and kept addressing the issues that the moderator had moved on from. If trump did his best to get his picture under the definition of alpha male in the dictionary, the mike pence portrait might be found under mansplainer. To karens point about suburban women, do you not think that Vice President pence hurt himself in the mission of trying to get suburban women to come back to President Trump . Be specific. To i think that analysis is a huge stretch. The reality is that he treated a the moderator the same way he would have treated a male moderator. He just debated. The fact that he didnt exactly answer the questions he was asked or use the opportunity to go back, any of us who have watched these debates for decades, everybody does that. Its nothing different. By the way, Kamala Harris did the exact same thing. The very first question she was asked was what would you do differently in january from the Trump Administration and she didnt answer. She refused repeatedly to say whether the Harris Biden Administration would pack the Supreme Court. Hold them both to the same standard. The sex of the moderator and the sex of the Vice President should be irrelevant to scoring the debate. But is it . To my mind its not. What do you think, karen . I dont. I think that one of the, one of the dynamics here is that this is the first time that a woman of color has been on a National Political party ticket. Page, shes asan female moderator out there. I just dont think that women watching this are going to especially given the struggles that the Trump Campaign has had ,ith white women voters suburban, especially collegeeducated, i just dont think that people are watching this with this kind of filter that doesnt take into effect gender and race. Let me get you both to talk about what you think where the high points and low points for each candidate. Karen, i will start with you. What was Vice President pences best moment and also the best moment for senator harris, do you think . Cases it was,both you know, his defense of i actually think he was ready for the covid question. He wasnt necessarily telling the truth, but he had the line of attack. Hers were more when she went after the questions that country the kind of that we are. In both cases they were very message thatng the was job one for their principal. Market . For the harris low point, i think its something she didnt say. The very first question was about whether, about the covid pandemic, unlike susan page, she never said hey, we wish the president a speedy recovery. She launched into a blistering attack. The absence of that was glaring. It really didnt take much to do that. Karen that the Vice President was ready on the covid. I thought he was very effective when she was trying to blame the president for the deaths and he quoted Vice President bidens own chief of staff saying that they completely blew it, they did Everything Possible wrong during the swine flu pandemic and then it was just pure luck that tens of millions of people didnt die. There was a picture of the ineffectiveness of a response to a pandemic. And of course, the Supreme Court, this is such a central issue to the election. The democratic line is that they are, that americans have to decide about this and they will not tell the American People, two debates in a row where they refused to answer the question if they will pack the court. Thats not a normal thing. Its an unprecedented idea. 100 and 50 years we have had nine justices and they want to turn this into a referendum, they have to answer the question. Of not answering the question, does it not disturb you that Vice President pence, like his boss, refused to answer the question that they would accept a peaceful transfer of power question mark he didnt answer the question last night. Sure. Of course, they should have. President trump should have answered that. But what about Vice President pence . They both should have. Of course there will be a peaceful transfer of power. But this whole thing about a peaceful transfer of power is a little hysterical. The Supreme Court, if this is litigated, the Supreme Court will decide, it will be bush v gore, it will be a decision that is enforced. Theres not a single chance that there will be troops in the streets and a violent opposition to donald trump leading leaving the white house if he loses the election. Go ahead. I think the question of packing the courts is biden takesto if office. Packing the courts would be such an extreme measure that would take such a huge, huge legislative and legal lift. I think its one of those issues in the out there perhaps fevered swamps of the left, but its just not likely to happen. So i actually think that, you campaign, the biden they are wise not to address it. In order to add judges to the court, not only would you have to win the presidency, but the democrats would have to take over the senate. Thats just, the politics of that, the electoral piece of it, lets say that were to happen. The politics, as karen says, of getting that done would be a huge lift. Market, you were very kind to point out a loan note for senator harr