Cribb, historian and author of the historical novel old abe. He is your to talk to us about the 157th anniversary and the lasting significance of president lincolns gettysburg address. Good morning. Guest good morning. Thanks for having me. Host you wrote earlier this today the gettysburg address is more important for our nation than ever. Tell us why. Guest because the gettysburg address speaks to a problem that has been around as long as human beings or at least society has been around and that is the problem of our people going to rule themselves or are they going to be ruled by others . People who would otherwise take their freedom away. Lincoln knew that problem never goes away, it doesnt. He said it is an ageold problem. That is really what he in the end was speaking to in the gettysburg address. Day, today as in his day, there are forces around the world who want to take freedom away from people here and abroad. We always have to be on our guard against them. Lincoln knew that. If you look at the gettysburg address am a he talks about rededicating ourselves to the principles that will keep us free. That is why the speech continues to be so important today. Host thursday was the 157th anniversary of the gettysburg address. I think what surprises many people about the gettysburg address is that it is so short. Probably took him less than two minutes to actually deliver it. Long. About 272 words for our consideration today, that would be just a politician clearing his throat. [laughter] that would not be the whole speech. Right. Exactly host what was lincoln tried to tell america through the gettysburg address . Guest you are right, it was so short. Long. Rds and 10 sentences it was so short that he wrapped had known people he had started. The fellow in charge of taking his picture for the address was still getting his camera set up, because he thought he had all the world, and all of a sudden lincoln was done. It was a very short speech. Almost an invocation. Went to gettysburg to tell the northern people why they had to go on fighting this horrible, godawful war that had seen so much death and bloodshed and seemed to be dragging on and on. He wanted to speak to them and give them a higher purpose for continuing the war. In the end, he was speaking to both north and south, to all americans, but lincoln in that great speech, he starts off talking about four score and seven years ago. That is 87 years, a very oldfashioned and the local way of saying 87 years. He gave the speech in 1863. Abstract 87 years subtract 87 years. That takes you to the declaration of independence. He was taken audience back to 1776. As he put it, the nation conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. That is pretty much straight out of the declaration of independence, right . He wanted to take his audience back to those founding principles and remind them that in many ways, that is what that war was about, rededicating ourselves to those founding principles. Host you said that he was aiming this discussion at his citizens in the north. All, why was he actually there in the first place, and who was there to hear him . Guest he went to gettysburg to take part in the dedication ceremony of the new cemetery there. That summer in early july of 1863, the nation had seen the most cataclysmic battle it had ever known. About 50,000 casualties, may 8000 people dead. After the battle, the burial crews with the armies would quickly bury the bodies in shallow graves the best they could and if they could identify them, they would put a board with the name and the whatever information they had scratched on them and they left. There was no federal authority to come in or state authority to come in and take care of that. Gettysburg was left with this horrible scene on their hands, thousands and thousands of bodies on the hillsides around their town, and shallow graves. It is not a longterm situation at all. So they decided in conjunction with the state of pennsylvania and other states to establish a cemetery and move these bodies into a Hallowed Ground where they could rest permit me. Now, best where they could rest where they could rest permanently. Some of the bodies were taken home. They were still being buried when the invocation took place. First thing blenkinsop and he got to get as berg was stacks of coffins on the Railroad Tracks that were being shipped home. He was invited to come in and give a few appropriate remarks at this dedication ceremony. So he knows when he goes up there, it will be a brief address, he is not the main speaker of the day. He is not going to speak for long, he knows, but he goes because he knows it is an wasrtant invocation and he to use it to send a message to the nation. He wants to tell the people of the north why they need to keep war,ing on in this awful but he also had a broader message for the whole nation, and that is a reminder that selfrule, the democracy is at stake in this war, and if this war, if the country breaks apart in this war, the hopes of freedom and democracy might well be snuffed out. Host if you havent been to the to see the cemeteries and the money meant in gettysburg, i promise you, it is worth the trip, especially if you can social distance and wear your mask, you can still see it. If you want to learn more about the monuments of gettysburg, watch American History tvs american artifacts tour of the battlefield with historians. Cspan. Org. Lable at if you want to check out some more and learn more about those monuments in gettysburg. We know that the speech that president lincoln gave, he was not the main speaker, he was only there for a few moments to talk about only on stage for a few moments. What was the Immediate Reaction to the words he said . Guest i think the Immediate Reaction within the first few seconds after he finished may well have been silence, just because people didnt expect him to wrap up that quickly. His friend, and fellow attorney back from his illinois days, served as kind of his chief actingrd in washington as master of ceremonies. He said when he finished, and it can turn to him and whispered, the speech went sour. A good plow will turn over the land and scour the land and a poor plow wont. Hist is possible that bodyguard was right about that, that lincoln thought it didnt work because of the silence. But very quickly people began to cheer and applaud. Some accounts say that three giant cheers went up in a thunderous wave of applause. I think people listened to it and were moved by it. The press reaction, of course, in some ways was partisan. The press was extremely partisan back then. There were republican in newspapers and democratic newspapers. The democratic newspapers didnt like it. Cheekicago times said the of every american should tingle with shame at a flat, silly, dishwatery of the president. Republican newspapers were apt to praise it. The springfield republican in massachusetts for example called speech. Fect gem of a after the initial partisan reaction, i think quickly people realized this was a great speech in. Praise began to pour it didnt take long for the speech to be anthologized and people began to even learn it. Wellreceived. Al host let me remind our viewers they can take part in our conversation. We will open up regional lines for the last part of the show. The means if youre in eastern and central time zones, we want to hear from you at 2027488000. If you are in the mountain and pacific time zones, we want to hear from you at 2027488001. Remember, you can always text us 2027488003 and we are always reading on social media, on twitter at cspanwj, and on facebook at facebook. Com cspan. John, do we know if lincoln himself realized how important this speech was and how it will go down in history before his death . Guest i think he certainly knew that it was an important speech. He meant it to be important. It was after he gave it, the most requested speech. Madetually copies were in a couple were auctioned off to raise money for the war effort. He meant it to be an important speech. He began working on it before he went to gettysburg. He told an aide he had half of it written out before he got on the train to go to gettysburg, but he had been thinking for quite a while on how he could crystallize his thoughts, his message. He finished writing his speech the night he got to gettysburg. He stayed in the house of a fellow named david wills, one of the people responsible for the establishment of the cemetery. The next morning he got up and ade a few changes, road out clean copies before joining the procession to go to the dedication ceremony. But he wanted it to be an important speech. Host lets go to our phone lines and let some of our viewers join the conversation. We start with dutch calling from pennsylvania. How far away are you from gettysburg . Caller hi, how are you . Conversation. Ble this is just a really refreshing conversation. At wharton,course pennsylvania, that took us to gettysburg and it really enlightened my eyes as to how executive commanderinchiefs all the way down to generals would work, and it spurred a lot of interest because i work in the criminal justice system, so deeply. I happened to be in winchester, virginia, and i read th a book that was about several women who were in their homes where the transition occurred between rebel to union, over and over in the same house, across the street with neighbors. No one knew who was on which side. Sound familiar . Gettysburg, went to that really struck a match. Here,en i have people what i want to share is a few things. First of all, gettysburg is fascinating. Just the decisiveness and the holding back and the explosions going on around your head where you are spending, you dont know ,hat is left, right or center and the just fantastic, almost miraculous situations that occurred were just breathtaking. To see on those stones, the actual tree that they hid behind to save their own lives, that is amazing. Host go ahead and respond. Guest it is an amazing place to visit, i wish every american can go there. It is worth visiting vote for the battlefield and for the spot where lincoln gave that great address. One thing i can recommend if you go, there is a Great Organization called the gettysburg that has been around for over 100 years. They specialize in getting people to wars of the battlefield getting people battlefield. You can call and get in touch with them through the park service. They will even drive your car for you so you dont have to drive. A lot of them are retired School Teachers and historians and they really know that battlefield. You can call them up with any aspect of the speech or battle you want to know about and they will tailor the tour for you. That is a great way to see the battlefield. And all the park rangers are great. It is such a huge battlefield, almost overwhelming, but it is gorgeous. Nobody should go without going to the cemetery where lincoln gave that address, because when you stand and look out over those gravestones and over those fields, is a very, very moving experience. Host i can tell you that when i took my family to gettysburg, we did the driving tour and it included back then the cd that tells you about all the history of certain spots in the battlefield and the cemetery. Leads you eventually to the cemetery where you get to listen to an actor reading the gettysburg address. I can vouch that this is an absolutely wonderful tour. And you can do a driving tour which means you can keep yourself and your family safe. We used to be able to do a driving tour where you could keep your families safe while you are seeing this Great American institution. One of our social media followers has a question for you. They want to know what influence that Frederick Douglas or others had on the gettysburg address. Guest well, they had a profound influence in that the gettysburg is part of the pivot from the civil war, starting out mainly as a war to save the union, to hold the country together. That is lincolns express purpose at the onset of the war anyway. In 1862. Changes really the preliminary emancipation proclamation after the battle of antietam in maryland in september of 1862, and then signs the official emancipation proclamation on january 1, 1863. Of course, the emancipation proclamation, he declares southern slaves free. War changes the war from a just to save the union to a war to both save the union, and free the slaves. Abolitionists like Frederick Douglas had an awful lot to do without. Lincoln and Frederick Douglas had a very interesting relationship. They respected each other a great deal. Came to see lincoln at the white house once and chide him a little bit because raisess was trying to black troops for the union, a very important part of the war effort. He came to lincoln to see him at the white house in a very historic meeting. Here is an africanamerican coming to meet oneonone with the president in the white house. He said, mr. President , i will be honest with you, i will not be able to do this much longer if things dont change. I am trying to ask these men to risk the lives but they are still being discriminated against they are not being soldiers,e white not receiving the same promotions as the white soldiers. Lincoln talked with him. Douglass was right. Lincoln basically urged patience. He said, these things take time. Time douglass left the meeting, i think he was satisfied. I suspect one of the most meaningful moments in lincolns presidency was after he gave his second inaugural address at the end of the war. Douglass was in the crowd listening to him, and afterwards, that evening there was a reception in the white house and lots of people came. Frederick douglass showed up. First there were people who tried to keep him out of the white house because he was black. Somebody told Lincoln Douglass was here and make an immediate beside, show him in. In a very loud voice as douglass enter the room, he said, here comes my friend douglass. He wanted everybody to hear that. He asked douglass, what did you think of my speech . He said, mr. President , you dont want to know. Lincoln said, no. He said, mr. President , that was a sacred effort. I think that probably pleased lincoln just about as much as anything could have pleased him at that point. In answer to your question, abolitionists like douglass certainly had a big influence on lincoln, and therefore, on the gettysburg address. Host our next caller is calling from brooklyn, new york. Good morning. Caller good morning and thank you so much for taking my call and thank you so much, sir, for speaking on the subject. Can you hear me all right . Guest i. Caller can, thank you. Caller ok. I am about to turn 87 years old on january 1. October, i think i was nine years old, in the fourth grade. We had Assembly Every wednesday. What we had then was brotherhood week in the month of october. And our class, my teacher thought i was a difficult child, and she asked me to recite the gettysburg address. I took it home and they showed it to my mother and i said, i have to read this tomorrow in assembly. She knew that i had a good memory and she said, you are not going to read it, you are going to memorize it. All that night i had to memorize that speech. The next day i got up and recited it. For the last 15 years i recite it every day just to work on preserve this memory. My question is, what you are discussing, in the second paragraph and what i am very concerned with today having survived all these wars is that, in the second paragraph, he says, now we are engaged this is from my memory now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. I see where we are today and i keep asking myself, have we failed the test . That is my question. Guest thank you for the question. And congratulations, first of all, on turning 87 on january 1 . 1. T she said january guest you were born on the first day of the emancipation proclamation. That is wonderful the birthday. I hope schoolchildren are still memorizing the gettysburg address. I had to memorize it in the fourth grade, i hope they are still doing that across the country. That is a great question. Let me talk for just a second about why he said they are engaged in that test of whether democracy can survive, can long endure. Lincoln knew that, when he give that speech, that the country was still very young, less than 100 years old. Lincoln also knew that for the vast majority of history, most human beings had lived without much freedom. They had lived under the rule of kings and tyrants, or they had lived as slaves, or as serfs, in bondage of some kind. Most people didnt have much freedom. He knew that when the United States was born in 1776, which was his favorite founding document, the one he goes back to in the gettysburg address that was such a radical idea that a country would be founded on these propositions, that all men are created equal and all have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. People around the world had been waiting for centuries for a country like about to come along like that to come along. The eyes on the world were on the nation. It was still a very unproven idea. It was being tested very hard in that civil war. Lincoln knew that other movements or freedom around the world had not fared as well, like the revolutions, for example of 1848 in europe, and the french revolution, in a lot of ways went the wrong way. So lincoln knew that in some severehis was a test of the whole idea of democracy, that if this civil war, if the country ended up a lot of people thought it fit broke up it would go down the road of europe, this continent would end up looking like europe, a bunch of smaller countries and republics in name only but it looked to the world that this grand experiment in selfrule and democracy was blowing itself up in this civil war. In the eyes of the world, they were on it. The hopes for freedom around the world, lincoln felt were at stake. At the is why he says end of the speech, he said they have to keep fighting so the government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not harris from the earth. Notice he doesnt say from the country. He says from the earth. In his view, that is what is at stake for people around the world, the idea of selfrule and freedom. To get back to your question, lincoln is saying that the American People had to rededicate themselves to the principles in the declaration of independence that we are all created equal, we all had the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We had to dedicate ourselves to the principal if we were in fact to be able to prove to the world that a nation so conceived could long endure. His message still resounds down to us today. It is always an openended question. That is why your question is such a great one. Every generation needs to dedicate themselves to those principles. It would