Susan early on your latest book is an epic journey from slave to freedom. What makes their story particularly compelling to you. Ilyon woo i cant even begin to say what does not make it compelling for me i am obsessed with the story and have been for a really long time. I think what originally drew me to it was the phenomenal adventure story and their narrative, running 1000 miles to freedom which they published in 1860. It talks about this incredible escape they make. They are husband and wife enslaved in makem george at jaya georgia and they decide they are going to for freedom not with any underground railroad which does not reach south where they are, not by hiding and traveling by night. But they go out in the full light of day, disguised as master and slave with william playing the role of the slave. That story grip me from the beginning. In their time how well were they . Ilyon woo they were quite wellknown known actually there is a quotation from Wendell Phillips who is a celebrated abolitionist lecturer, he is called the golden tongued man and he predicted that future people, millions will read their story and know it with admiration and applause because many people across the United States knew their name at that time. Because their escape was phenomenal but also because they chose to tell their story. Susan what do you think we get from the history books . Ilyon woo that is an interesting question and it depends on which history books you are talking about. I would probably quote one of the great granddaughters on this one, she said whether people know the story or not has to do a lot with where they are coming from and the kind of stories they have access to. But it is certainly true that the crafts are not known like douglas or truman people who are known by a single name. I think that reason is complicated, it has a lot to do with which stories we decide as a nation, people in power in this nation have decided to tell. And remember over the years. It is also a difficult one for us nationally to remember because it has so many pieces to it, because it does not simply end with them achieving their emancipation when they reach the north. Lots of things continue to happen where they have to live in america. It is not one that is easy for us to embrace, s so it needs a happy ending in other words . Ilyon woo it doesnt it has so many endings and that is what makes it so exciting and my point of view and so rich and worthy and deserving of our attention, our renewed attention today. Susan besides william and ellen at you mentioned frederick to who or some other important characters in your narrative . Ilyon woo there are a lot of people across the board from abolitionist lecturers, black activists, the president of the United States, who come in and out of the story. One thing, i have a writing partner i also work with, we actually used to be running partners. We would always keep each other going and we were doing the same thing on the page, one thing she pointed out was its like in an ordinary movie, not an ordinary movie i guess a mainstream hollywood movie that you might have seen over the last number of years, you would have henry clay or Daniel Webster. Someone like Frederick Doug a set the center of the story. Now these characters get walkon roles and that is sort of how i like to see them. So many of them come in and out, there is douglas and William Brown who are great lecturers and people who really show the crafts of telling the story and what it means to live a life in freedom in the north and overseas. There are the president of the United States and secretary of state Daniel Webster who have to figure out how they are going to recapture the crafts, there are International Celebrities who get to know the crafts abroad. Lots of people who go in and out of the story and if you take a look at the book, the book jacket, and you undress the book and you read the jacket. You will see there are a lot of people on the inside of the pages, you can see that. But these are some of the many people who you will meet along the way. Susan so the story opens in 1848 make the point that this year is a real seminal one in not only American History but globally, what are the important things that were happening in this country in 1848, that makes this a real focal point of their ability to make the escape that they did . Ilyon woo well 1848 is one of those crazy years were so many things are happening, worldwide you have democratic revolutions sweeping across europe and those revolutions are being celebrated in the United States and sheared and toasted in washington dc by people who are holding enslaved people in bondage themselves. Meanwhile you have the year of falls, the american womens right conference, the year of a Global Pandemic with cholera sweeping around. You have got an information revolution, a transportation revolution, the trains and steamers at all kinds of technology are working as never before to bring news and people across the country. Youve got the close of the mexicanamerican war in the mexican session which explodes the contours of the country, so we have western migration, the gold rush. I mean it is a really intense and exciting time in United States history. Manifest destiny is a catchphrase. That is why the craft escape, which fit so interestingly with this because they encompass all these revolutions that are at play and they make manifest a new destiny of their own. Susan approximately what was the population of the country at the time . Ilyon woo that is a really good question i dont have it at my fingertips but it was definitely exploding and changing and this is also a time where there were new immigrants coming to this country like never before, so even as the crafts ultimately leave the country and land in liverpool, that is one of those places where tons of impoverished people are getting on boats and coming over to the United States. Irish immigrants following the potato fine, chinese it to. Ants are starting to make for the gold rush, and working on the railroads and mines and such. So our population is exploding and changing. At a dramatic rate. Susan do you know approximately how many enslaved persons were in the United States at the time . Ilyon woo thats another good question, i am not on top of the figures. Susan i wrote down, about 3 million. That is one of your historical figures referenced. We will use that number from your book. You also tell readers that we think about the fugitive slave law is something that came out of the compromise of 1850, but you remind your readers that George Washington actually signed fugitive slave legislation so it had been enforced since the very founding of the country. What did that early legislation mean for enslaved people, what did it do to their lives . Ilyon woo both the fugitive slave law, the 18th century fugitive slave law and a clause in the constitution itself, made it possible for, or legalized enslavers rights to go reaching over state lines and reclaim their enslaved quote unquote property, or the labor that was owed them at his is as it is expressed in the constitution. But there are many states especially in the north that were getting around these laws. It was hard to enforce. So actually George Washington himself had a challenge with a judge who is the subject of a wonderful book called never caught by eric armstrong, he himself never was able to recapture luna. And enslavers or incensed by this so whats the use of having these protections for their Property Rights that they consider them, when somebody escapes lets say two and abolitionist stronghold. Legally you can do something but actually you cant. Susan so the crafts home macon georgia what is important to know about making an 1848 n woo macon was an urban nter it is a transportation hub, right next to ledge bill which was then the State Capitol atlanta. It was kind of a bustling, thriving place. The indian removal act in macon had dispossessed many native people of those lands and you can still see in the mountains where native people used to bury their deads. Those grounds were cut through with railroads and the person in charge, instead of supervising the construction of those railroads was ellen crafts own enslavers. There is a real irony there of alan and william craft fleeing on the same line that the man she was forced to call master was in charge of building. In those tracks were laid by enslaved workers and those helped her get to freedom. Susan lets spend more time getting to know the protagonists starting with william. How old would he have been in 1848 . Ilyon woo he was born in, let us see my math skills are challenging. He was 25 years old. Susan what was known about his life up until that point . Where was he born, what were his early days like . Ilyon woo that was really interesting to discover because i did find out through his original enslavers records, and then ultimately through his own death records, that he was born in the town of lech phil and he was born to parents we knew and loved and he had siblings he grew up with. He was enslaved by a man named mr. Craft in the book, this man helped him get an education, help the poor a christian man, but as william pointed out this is a man who enjoys all these privileges and has this reputation but this is a person who essentially has gambling debts. Leading to Williams Family being ripped apart. Susan tell me the story of Williams Family being ripped apart and sold at auction and how that affected him . Ilyon woo this is one of the emotional grips of the book william and allans separation from their families. William from his parents and siblings and alan from her mother. So williams parents, he was one of the younger children. They were laboring for mr. Craft and he saw that they were getting old and past their prime and williams mother had already had all these children, williams father, they were both probably in their 40s. As the crafts remember it, he wanted to replenish his stock by trading in these older enslaved people for younger ones and thats the reason he gives william when he asks, because william was under 10 years old when this happens. And he asks mr. Craft was it because they were losing their value . So william remembers his parents and seeing them taken off and sold to different enslavers. What happens then is william and his siblings are left and his brothers are sold and then he and his one other brother and one younger sister are remaining. The older brother and william are apprenticed, william to become a cabinetmaker because he is smart and develops these skills. He will provide a return on his investment for his and slaver. What he doesnt know is that he and craft are having more financial trouble so this is what ends up resulting in both william and his sister being put on a mortgage, which i actually held in my hand. He had been mortgaged alongside church pews and other stuff, other physical property. They were listed there as if they are things. And what happens is the kotten speculation takes a downturn for mr. Craft, the children and their lives are put on the line and they are sold off. Susan and you described him watching his sister being led away in chains on a wagon. How this made him so angry and that anger coursed through him for the rest of his life. Can you add any more color to this story . Ilyon woo yes it is a devastating moment. I highly recommend also returning to the original narrative where william recounts this, he feels this burning inside him, this fire inside of him. He cant even say goodbye to his sister and he is seeing her as shes being pulled away. Shes already tried to beg to see if he could say goodbye to her for a last time, and he gets a no. He knows she is not going to be sold locally, she is going to be going far away and that is a moment he will never forget and it leads to him thinking his own self emancipation and also being determined not to replicate this cycle of trauma within his own family. And not to have children who will be taken away from him in this way. Susan you said william was apprenticed to be in a cabinetmaker and this becomes an important part of the narrative because he seems to be able to earn his own income. How did that work . Ilyon woo this was technically not legal but it was a nice arrangement, williams enslavers was a young man and a businessman and what william did was because he had these skills in the shop, he made this arrangement where ira hamilton would pay a set fee for william services to the cabinetmaker and then whatever william worked on top of that he made an arrangement with the cabinetmaker so he could earn his own wages. He had to work a full day and have all those wages go to his in slaver, but he could keep the other wages that he earned both at the cabinetmaker shop and a hotel. Which i think is also key because hotels are places where people are going in and out and exchanging information and traveling. Thats another place he could have ticked up information about how to move. Susan turning to alan, she was a few years younger than william, 17 or 18 years old. What is her lineage . Susan ellen was the daughter of an enslaved woman named maria. She had a really close relationship to this woman. They were both enslaved by a biological father whose name was james smith. James smith originally had a house in georgia which is maybe 12 minutes away from macon. They ended up moving back to macon, into macon. But james smith had a legal vice in his household and they had a number of children. His wife eliza smith is so enraged by this child ellen and her resemblance to her father and her being mistaken for a child of the family that she wants to get rid of her. At the soonest opportunity when her own daughter turns 18 years old, she is given away as a wedding present to become the property of allens halfsister. Susan a socalled house slave of her own halfsister . Ilyon woo exactly susan if she was standing in front of us today what would we see . Ilyon woo ellen craft . Susan yes. Ilyon woo short . How light complexion . What did she look like . I have a picture here and her older age i keep on my desk she was very fair. She had dark straight hair as you described, everybody talked about how lovely she was. Both she and william were known to be goodlooking people. And very charming and graceful. She would have been dressed, she would have won a corset in her day as a house slave. This is something i learned, one of the things that is really exciting about this research is talking to other people who have different areas of expertise. I really wanted to bring the era alive with the foods and the smells and the costumes and all these things, i had a friend who was a real expert lynn bassett with these clothing details. She was able to let me know how a woman like ellen would have dressed and she would have had a corset, because back then, you know the expression a loose woman . That comes from women who did not wear corsets. If youre going to be a respectable person, that includes women who enslaved women who are working as house slaves in these households, you would be wearing a corset. A full skirt. And possibly a kerchief on her head, but she would have been wearing some close especially in her case, because her enslavers did not want her to be mistaken as a member of the family. She would have been dressed in clothing that marked her as an enslaved woman. Ilyon woo William Susan william had a skill a cabinetmaker but ellen had her own skill as a seamstress how important was that . Ilyon woo that was critical for a number of reasons because one it was noted she was small. So william was the one who actually goes to the different shops in macon and buys a hat and buys a coat and he buys a vest and shoes, a jacket would be too hard to make in four days which was all the time they had. She made her own pants because pants are something that would not be able to fit, and even the other clothing items when she tries on the pants, i am sorry when she tries on her vest over the outfit. Even william is looking at her like i dont think this is going to work and he panics. There is a newspaper that recounts him recounting this. But she is a clothing expert and she knows that even though the vest is off she can layer her clothing in such a way that it will be all right. That knowledge as well as the sewing expertise both helped her essentially. Susan in 1848 when they make their escape how long have they been a couple . Ilyon woo in terms of their marriage, they had this slave marriage ceremony in 1846. So that was two years but they had fallen in love before that. They had fallen in love but ellen had not wanted to marry, not want to have a profound connection with another human being knowing that this person in any family she created with him could be stolen from her at any time. So even though they fell in love earlier their relationship was delayed. They think originally they were going to try to run first and then marry later, but the escape routes proved to be so out of reach that they decide to reverse the order and put love first. Susan you said they put their plan together for the steering escape and for the steering escape in four days, what was the urgency . Ilyon woo while there is a clock that starts ticking. I guess i should back up for a moment to say that in order for them to even initiate this escape they had to get written passage from their enslavers giving them permission to move. So as an enslaved person you cannot travel without such a pass and there are severe punishments for traveling without this written pass. The crafts were denied literacy so it is not like they could forge one of these passes on their own. And these passes, your chances of getting one of these passes were greatest if you were favored and around the holidays. That would be the time when you might be given a couple days off. Both william and the crafts were favored by those who enslaved them and so ellen goes to her halfsister and slaver and gives an excuse, this was before christmas but she also gives an excuse that her aunt is ill. And eliza at first does not want to let her, even though it is the holidays it is a busy time at home. And ellen burst into tears and at that point eliza gives her that permission. But both she and the cabinetmaker who have primed the paper for william give them just a few days. That gives it the urgency of them getting out of reach within that time. Susan explain the heart of their plan, how are they posing in what was their destination . Ilyon woo they were posing,