Transcripts For CSPAN2 North Korea Nuclear Program 20170920

CSPAN2 North Korea Nuclear Program September 20, 2017

Panel discussion on us policy toward north korea. One of the speakers was part of the special envoy for party talks with north korea during george w. Bushs administration. This discussion is almost 2 hours. Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Our session on north korea crisis, causes and cures. You may have noticed the large camera and the good looking fellow behind the camera there. You might deduce that we are on the record. We are actually live on cspan i am told. This will be a good session. I am honored to be accompanied by two good friends here that have some experience with north korea and can share their insights. To my right we have career intelligence official mandarin, former special envoy to the Six Party Talks, us are presented to the Korean Economic Development agency, the associate director of National Intelligence admissions manager for north korea and director of the National Counter Proliferation Center and special advisor to the director of National Intelligence. He has been trying to make sense of this problem to a lot of people. For a long time he is able to speak well of that. To my left, the executive director of the committee toward human rights in north korea. Which induces a lot of interesting conversations. He was formerly with the Korean Economic Institute in washington and he comes from a comes to us, his knowledge of communist governments honestly, he was raised in romania during the regime. He has a decided view on this. I like to start off with greg and then we will ship to joe and as usual questions from the assembled group. Thank you. Thank you on the introduction. 28 years after the collapse of communism in eastern europe. The former soviet union regime, not only has this regime survives but it has developed a lot of terrifying weapons in the meantime. And it achieved two hereditary transmissions. From grandfather to son and son. And from kim jongun to the grandson in december 2011. How did we get here . One argument that is made explaining the resilience of the kim regime is the fact that Eastern Europeans had witnessed other political systems good, bad, terrible. In the case of north korea, regime, the system is truly the result of the fusion of three totalitarian political systems. Of course, there is a stalin communism, imperialism from 95 to 1945, korea was under a very tough brutal Japanese Imperial occupation. Prior to that, 500 years the dynasty so one argument is made that this dynastic dictatorship that the kim family regime is truly the result of the fusion of three totalitarian political systems. What we know for sure is that this is a criminal regime. In february of 2014 they submitted a report with the results of an investigation. They submitted a report to the human rights council, they report that what is happening in north korea in particular in the prison camps amounts to crimes against humanity. None of us have a perfect human rights record. Many of us in the free world work hard on improving that record. There is only one country on the face of the planet where there are still political prison camps and that is north korea. There are 120,000 men, women and children being held at north koreas political prison camps. After three generations of the same family. A system of guilt by association both a system of feudal inspiration. This is the only country on the face of the planet that classifies its own citizens based on their perceived degree of loyalty to the regime. The names are frightening, there is a class, 20 to 25 percent of the publishing. There is a wavering class 40 to 60 percent of the population, and hostile class and many of the classified as hostile are sent to political prison camps. Many of them have been banished in the northeastern part of north korea. The abuse happening in north koreas detention facilities is absolutely unbelievable. We have had numerous accounts of public, starvation, execution, prisoners are subjected to labor and induced malnutrition. One can see this vast system of unlawful imprisonment as truly the heart of the north korean regime. Going back to the question, as to how this regime has managed to stay in power for so long. After this they will be celebrating the 70th anniversary of the establishment of the dprk. As mentioned earlier i was born in communist romania which was the one Eastern European country that came closest to north korea, the two leaders were good friends. Certainly, romania was a very oppressive regime and some of us for all of us still remember the notorious secret police. For a population of 23 million in 1989, they had the secret police with 14,000 agents. Pretty similar population of 25 million in north korea today. There are 270,000 agents of north koreas main internal security agencies. The state security department, this is the north korean gestapo. They have 50,000 agents. With ministry ups Public Security of course a police force that executes Political Police functions as well, 210,000 and the military security command Whose Mission is to keep an eye on officers, Senior Officers in particular, 10,000 agents. In romania they were half a million informers which is on the honor of the nation. In north korea, each and every individual has to become an informer and report on family, friends, neighbors each and every north korean has to participate in the Neighborhood Watch system. Each and every north korean has to participate in weekly indoctrination sessions. Where people confess to their trespasses, they engage in a robust session of selfcriticism, alleging to strengthen ideological others criticize them and this goes on and on and on. The life of a north korean is lived under an overwhelmingly level of coercion, control, surveillance and punishments. Which means that the level of social cohesion is very low. It is very difficult for people to get together to organize and discuss sports even. Forget about politics. North korea, although the situation has changed to a certain extent and i will mention that in a few minutes. North korea continues to restrict very severely information coming into the country and also information getting out of the country. One thinks budapest, 1956, prague in 1968, bucharest 19 89. What was the age of the revolution, the late teens, early 20s. Perhaps mid20s. At the age of the revolution, each and every young man in north korea is in a military uniform for 10 years. Ages 17 through age 27. Also many of the women spend six years in a military uniform. I have spoken with numerous North Koreans whose sons have come back on the military after having spent 10 years there and they all say that although they had lived under the permanent indoctrination by the regime, the level of indoctrination that the sons had been subjected to was frightening. Even to a north korean living in north korea. By the time they are of the military, the age of revolution has already passed. Of course, i would be stating and restating the obvious if i said that north korea today is different from north korea 10 or 20 years ago as we all remember. In the midtolate 1990s, between its hundred thousand and 3 million North Koreans starved to death or died of disease induced by malnutrition. This happened, the main reason behind this great tragedy that affected the people in north korea was that mild International Aid was coming and, they came regime chose to focus its resources on its fundamentals strategical objectives that i know the ambassador will mention later which is of course, as you all know by now, survival. Of course, this regime does not want its people to die by the millions. But, if that is what it takes, in order to stay in power than it will do it in the blink of an eye. This is what happened in the 1990s. Ever since, if i may say so, there have been some Positive Side effects first and foremost, many more North Koreans have escaped the country. As of a couple of weeks ago, there were 30,800 north korean defectors living in south korea. There are 220 north korean defectors here in the United States and elsewhere. They have played an extraordinarily important role. Through them, we have learned the stories of north korea. Through them, we have learned the truth about what is happening in north korea. After all, i will take the liberty of saying that the work that organizations such as ours do, is the work that the came regime fears the most. We find out the truth and we tell the truth about north korea. This regime does care about its pocketbook. It also cares about the legitimacy. If we bring up Nuclear Weapons once, we should bring up human rights five times. Every time we address Nuclear Weapons, i am not exactly an avid reader of this but i do read the news every day it is similar, it doesnt take that much time. Nuclear weapons have become an essential part of this very identity of the regime. It fills up pages and pages of propaganda with articles about a Nuclear Capability, Nuclear Weapons in the constitution and every time we mention human rights at the un or other international forum, this results in undermining the legitimacy of the regime. I think one has the mind that yes, indeed, the fundamental objective of this regime is survival. But this is an absolute monopoly on power. Inside north korea, there are no competitors. It is the kim regime and only the kim regime. The main competitor is south korea. Free, democratic, prosperous, republic of korea. As preposterous as this may sound, this regime understands that the only longterm guarantee of its own survival is to establish transport over the entire Korean Peninsula. Have we seen any positive developments in recent years for the past two decades . Basically, during the days of the kim regime the monetized the regime by replacing money as a means of exchange with russians. During the days of the great famine the regime was no longer able to feed its people with the public Distribution System. Small markets were established so ever since for the past two decades, we have seen a process of informal marketization in north korea. There are farmers markets, lack markets, open markets, many more people depend on the markets today than they do on the public Distribution System which is still active for those living in the capital city. Those elites, most of north koreas elites live in the capital city. You will see pictures of buildings actually constructed on kim jonguns watch. They are quite impressive one might say. And of course i also have the memories of romania where there was a lot of construction but very little economic utility to that construction. The regime as kim jongun has invested heavily in these high Profile Projects such as buildings in the capital city and at the same time, if one takes a look of pictures from one year ago, if you remember typhoon lion rock affected north korea quite seriously i vividly remember pictures published in north koreas propaganda, pictures of men participating in recovery efforts. They had no tools. Not a shovel, not a hammer, forget about tractors, forget about anything else. This is how the regime of kim jongun operates. By concentrating, focusing old resources first and foremost on those aspects that are critical to its survival and not on the ordinary people of north korea. Speaking of the markets, of course not having to depend on the public Distribution System, they regime not being able to absolutely control its own people through the distribution of food is certainly a positive development. The other positive development induced by the markets is that social dynamics are somehow changing in north korea. Slowly, but surely in the past, life used to be centered on two places. The workplace and their place of residence. The workplace is always a sign. Nobody gets to choose this in north korea. The place of residence is defined by the workplace. Everyone has to be employed. In north korea everyone has to punch in and punch out. Men participate in a lot of Public Mobilization campaigns that is primarily why women are the main actors involved in north koreas markets. Going back to social dynamics, this is not a society that thrives on trust. Actually, the distrust is everywhere. However, since there are no, there is nowhere to lend or borrow money, there are no banks available to those actives of these markets, although these market transactions basically goods coming from china, so that wholesale markets. And wholesale markets in the provinces, retail markets. Most of these transactions are executed based on trust. So perhaps one Interesting Development that will begin to take time in north korea is that a bit of trust, more than before is developing in personal relationships. That is not to say that the regime of kim jongun is less of a human rights denier than that of the father or the grandfather. My organization, committee for human rights in north korea has identified several trends in human rights under the kim jongun regime. We have identified these trends based on a Research Methodology that can provide satellite imagery, testimony from those inside the country and in this day and age, given technological advances that we can benefit from, we even have access to sources inside of the country. We have all heard about the purge that has been going on in north korea since early 2009. When the kim regime began proceeding with preparations for the second hereditary transmission of power. According to a think tank with defectors, the institute for National Security strategy during the first five years of the kim jongun regime, 340 senior officials were purged or executed. Remember, this is a humongous bureaucracy. It is more than one individual. It is the entire bureaucratic support structure, its friends, associates, family, the favorite method of execution on kim jonguns watch is execution by antiaircraft machine gun system. Hrnk managed to acquire a satellite image of such an execution taken just minutes before. Youre talking about a machine gun system of four machine gun barrels, 50 caliber, automatic fire. Human bodies are just polarized. They have turned into pink mist. Remember, this is still a confucian society. Of course, the old elites were exterminated. People of religion were exterminated. Christians were exterminated. New elites were created. It is still a confucian mindset and these officials were executed are even denied the fundamental right of leaving a body behind. North korea is a member of the United Nations, thus bound by the declaration of human rights. It has ratified several human rights instruments including International Covenant on civil and political rights. The International Covenant on economic, social and cultural rights. The womens convention, the Childrens Convention and yet, each and every conceivable human right is violated in north korea. North korea has zero diplomatic credibility. Given all of the engagement that it has broken. As far as we are concerned, human rights organizations, we will continue to tackle the toughest issues first. The most difficult of all issues in north korea is surely its vast system of unlawful imprisonment. North koreas political prison camp system and if i may use the same terminology, what we aim for, what we want to see is the complete, verifiable, irreversible dismantlement of north koreas gulags. Thank you. With that will go to the ambassador. We are still talking about this. Thank you. General and the center for the national interest, thank you for the invitation. This is a very, obviously a very important subject. One that is being discussed as we speak at the United Nations General Assembly meeting the president will be speaking to the General Assembly tomorrow typically north korea. Let me just follow up on what greg and his outstanding presentation. It was focused on human rights, criminality, illicit behavior. We just follow on that and then i will go into what i would really like to get a little more deeply into. In september, 2005 we had a joint statement agreement with north korea. 19 september to be exact. It took a number of years to come up with this joint statement. It speaks to north korea and committing to comprehensive, verifiable, irreversible dismantlement of all the Nuclear Programs. We made that very clear to the North Koreans and in return for that, they would be getting the security insurances, economic and provision of transfer when they returned to the nonwood Nuclear Weapons estate. And that was not, i remember many discussions or at least a few with the North Koreans it said wait a minute, if we denuclearize company actively youre saying that it does not lend itself to normal relationships with the United States. Because this was, and i believe still is, a major objective. Normalizing relationships with the United States. And i said no, there are other issues. These are bilateral issues. The work, and it will be actions for actions, not immediately denuclearization but as north korea moves toward that they would get the benefits certainly security assurances. Eventually other things. But we said there are other issues. The abductee issue, very powerful. Separating famili

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