And constructive disagreements. But are hoping to help universities achieve education and research. Also to have that informal and serendipitous connection but in 2014 inviting me to lunch to present with a crazy idea that was one of the most colistin important ideas of the last five years that strange stuff is happening on campus and students requesting protections from speech they had the idea they are girding to think in the same distorted ways he learned he has not to do while in therapy. We submitted to the lancet published 2015. It provoked discussion so we can go back to our day jobs. But a couple weeks later all hell broke loose. [laughter] and then jailed and everywhere else. So that was one strand of that what brought us here. But by complete coincidence that we had founded Heterodox Academy also in september 2015 all at the same time and had nothing to do with anything else. That was just an early member. We what thinking hour and undergrads situation so we launched Heterodox Academy then all hell breaks loose. So Heterodox Academy in prior have come together to share concerns to Work Together in a lot of ways. So with those important events there was no violence to the you get spat on . [laughter] but there was a real violence in the fall of 2015. One so long with the rest of the nation the academy goes through polarizations cycle with no end in sight with the more vocal all right certainly increase passion on the left. Increase fashions have led to Political Violence so to see many more cases of sexual and physical violence in response to campus in more agreements with College Students therefore it is an appropriate response to the possibility somebody may say certain words on campus. And this is what we have come to rue talk about. What on earth is going on . How did this happen . How did we get here . What can we do to break the cycle and reduce the fear to help american universities restored to the Historic Mission of education and research . We have a panel of experts to span the spectrum each has been writing brilliantly of the issues of how we got here. And then to run the event in with that famous philosopher. If we could bring one person back from the dead it would be john stuart mills. And that is one of the most brilliant parties ever made. Into a have the pleasure in with the metaphors in the insights and the understanding of the nuances. So here is a favorite quotation. It was an alliance of heretics of the hall inquiry it does not end in the orthodox conclusion. And with that whole Mental Development with the fear of heresy food can compute what the world loses with the promising intellect who dared not any independent train of thought. There are notes amid characters on the panel to my left only those who have devoted their careers to independent terrines of thought. [applause] [inaudible] the foundation for individual rights at Heterodox Academy thanks for making this conversation possible to our video and podcast audience to the firstever live edition of the free speech broadcast. I in your hosted for those not familiar every other week takes in necessarily. This weekly take a small step away from free speech issues lookee add a related issue and that is the view plane diversity. And we are on the College Campus were in manhattan and exploring fundamental questions of our College Campuses experiencing a decline . Did the university prepare for life and democracy and the political orthodoxy to reduce the of quality of education as he tried to answer these questions today. But before i introduce the of panel to participate in the conversation using day that is up on the screen. Those that are submitted will be used for the q a portion. Closest to me is professor abrams at politics and social science and also a Research Fellow from Stanford University institution and a faculty fellow for advanced social Science Research at nyu and also a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise institute and the council of relations. I am told youre also an amateur watchmaker . Fracking key for having me. I a mention not every great what comes out of switzerland they do great work but. [laughter] but in germany and around london. To your right is professor of law at new York Law School and from 1991 she served as president in the American Civil Liberties union. And the Supreme Court justices ruth cater ginsberg injustice pallia participated in the fifth parallel to abuse. Diversity. [laughter] her book will be published punished. [laughter] also published by Oxford University press. In addition to new transcending partisanship on the Supreme Court and in the stand you also bring people together as a cabaret performer. If i had any real talent fuel enough to have any real talent. There is the of learning experience to get up onstage. So the audience regretted that a lot. As a professor of humanities at Columbia University to specialize in intellectual history. Is starting the bit of discussion and after identity politics. Also we grew up a few miles away from the rapper m m. Last but not least professor april kelly from Political Science and legal studies. You are busy. Spirit Research Explores the intersection of politics and in 2011 to the still divided academy. Does your book feel more relevant today . I wish i could say that is wrong but whatever is wrong in the book we say that is my hasbeens par. [laughter] but before we begin it is one thing to talking the abstract but i dont think any to remind anybody what constitutes appropriate speech your scholarship that has been headline news. Into a forum todays discussion in from earlier this year to grab headlines sparking outrage with the publication of a peace you may have heard called the defense of transracial is a number crow and the article explore the case of breach old that you may recall that Rachael Dolezal who claimed to be black but to accept trades gender individuals decisions to change sex which also have those decisions to routine traces. But to get more than they bargained for. Many called for her firing a retraction of the article that that backlash prompted a public apology followed by a rebuttal. Defending the peace. Going through the proper peer review process. Just yesterday inside Higher Education a dangerous withdrawal of the story was about another journal article called the case for colonialism. It was revoked but not because of poor scholarship but there was a criticism because the publishing the peace. And was fired by in the college for defending black lives matter. Was a university of pennsylvania law professor and also a researcher in the list goes on. To avoid patent controversy this year alone. Incited outside of the academy that some did not agree with. But i want to begin this conversation. So for them to joe bin at any point. Stouros just to provide a couple of anecdotes but some say do we have any data to demonstrate that there is a trend for certain topics for discussion that are taboo or what we have seen over the past 30 years for 40 years with social media . The data topics that are offlimits i have never actually seen anybody in a meaningful way. There are some topics that i have been told informally we dont do a. It is not a good idea but for some of those quite frankly i am not so sure. They know this is a consequence fair or unfair in doing introductions one thing that struck me as interesting through one of our nations most progressive in new york it is unjust because of the topic but quite frankly the diversity of this panel for other reasons. Seller for a batter or for worse quite frankly that discussion to be shut down by anybody. So when you first came on board you felt a bit uncomfortable. Use it is easier to keep yourself to have opinions that dont fit within that orthodoxy. Yes that reality is i was attacked by the board of Trustees Member that evening i was accused of being a racist and hour to tell the story publicly because i realized i with the new york city i wanted to keep the job mr. Shortly after the collapse of wall street and universities were not ruling out the red carpet. So realize very quickly a baby right but it is not worth fighting about i tried to be quiet and put my head down and urban ted your then i started to pick at and have not stopped. [laughter] if they do think it is making a difference. I am shocked and disappointed how many faculty members are squandering that privilege by not. That is also what i love about Heterodox Academy we have this platform it is a privilege and an honor. We dont have that privilege so to refuse or choose. So now reflecting on data you have quite a bit of research on political tolerance urinalysis excuse me intolerance that there is more to dave van past generations. What the beef deal has of this discussion . Think of these controversies they dont fit into a nice neat bucket. It is everything we are talking about it is not whether or not you like somebody. To run an article this led yearago they said young people are more tolerant than ever but that is not but we mean. We mean Household Debt and how you treat the people you fundamentally dislike. Seller those even that you think theyre dangerous to society and have a book published and one of the common questions is if you would allow somebody with those views to Teach College did university courses. And dad is the lowest level of tolerance. Bill what about College Professors always has the lowest level of acceptance. That is a great thing to do with political tolerance. But the more educated you are the more tolerant you are supposed to be. Correct in untrue. One of the things i repeated the point out i dont date they are causing the problem because it is still the case through the college or university are more tolerant. But here seeing a big trend in Society Since he started to measure tolerance is no more tolerant than they and their parents. Since the 1950s trying to reverse this is a big change for careerists seeing the effects of that ahead is that balance. End with that tolerance level . Indigestible to do some research on this there is a relationship between exposure to diversity and we knew that going back but on my own campus based on that standard deviation and to be correlated with those that found offensive so adjusted to play with the data. Because i am remarkable. [laughter] but it is also true that national data. That is the higher of the level of political tolerance. the with the authoritarian days them that is smaller accepting of it then we have seen the last three or four regeneration is which is very troubling. Lead is so good about tolerance . But about those whose spew hatred . So there are consequences beyond the silencing the group. And then has said the group in the of the of radical muslims to speak. And maybe somebody else should not speak. Said that democratic vitality everyone perceives that freedom in the entire we are. Bets able correct me but you said it wasnt entirely the case . But for the most part the campus that drives the intolerance . The stock has come to us pretty intolerance already. [laughter]. And placing an emphasis on the 60s and 70s to politically and ideologically to talk about that statement with that cn of influence. Into lewd talk about and with those offers and melodrama. And then that focus own identity politics. It is that more complicated . Im sure that the rise is other complications but peoples idea of what happens when you write a book but instead you take a shot in the darkening the starting. So i have done a lot of looting with the cost of reaction. And the term to identity politics. Sold as the extension of the definition so any attack on your idea is so to put that front and center. So if you come to college or just watch the news or whatever beginning to you think about politics once you understand the world of those forces to see what is going on and how to be effective. And that is what has happened. With communism in socialism and. From the inside out with that sentiment struggle everything is changing every day. That needs to be fed and watered. But your politics will feel very fragile. So we have seen is the depth of passion but that interested political commitment you are committed to something passionately because you believe in the justice of the cause that perhaps has nothing to do with you or everything to do with you. But the whole model has changed that is adjusted question of what has happened in universities or schools but in the is a term of the past 30 years that vs is a more self absorption. Sodality lucy the political front. Even if we have the wrong model but how do i deal with myself . To be engaged with the rest of the world. Is that manifesting heckling those speakers and some of the of violence . Yes. I ran into rutgers a few weeks ago some of the organizers are here. They tried to break it up. At least for those the acadian came over us they were impervious to any type of conversation. They were on automatic pilot it was like falling god for College Students. But it was like all the nerves where on the outside of their skin it was almost psychological experience response to any bird. So a one to present a case as former president of the aclu. Last month students affiliated with black lives matter shot down as a member of the aclu was scheduled to newspeak they shut that down time defend those free speech rights and the protesters were shouting aclu you protect them to do that well but uphold the constitution and liberalism is white supremacy. It was out when those topics of our arguments were presented but now you have a book but had you found in your research with those efforts . Letter retrying to accomplish . Ironically the executive director of the aclu of virginia was going to be speaking on campus of free speech rights on campus. To violate. In to shoot down a Campus Program i put myself in her position. Is so what is the most constructive way as a teacher somebody whos definitely wants to empathize with them . And we dont want to demonize or disparage them. So what is positive . So to be committed to social and racial justice. So especially for the of thought that we hate. And with that censorship is the most counterproductive strategy but then all but we could do is the history of tolerating women with heated speech. And why did and though k light that letter . And so with day are shouting there is no way to communicate that message. I have to have a bigger banner. I am so sorry. With the ability to persuade through discussion. And then those repressors tend to check out. And then with every one of them. But then to do is up to the speaker. Is talk about the idea is but its is the disconnect to be passionate. And then that hypocrisy of the student. And for that reason and i will listen in return. But with colleges in universities. There is great value in that but we need to go back to be teachers. But not to knock on any other individual but collectively i think we drop the ball is teachers to step back to say lets talk about this. And then add another liberal arts college a professor said that why should i waste my time hearing ideas i know i will disagree with . You need to be the bigger person. I am supposed to answer that day and i hope that i can. I can play devils advocate. Said to be in the birmingham jail thought to be engaging in hate speech. I misunderstood because we need an answer. Is there such a thing and does hate speech . And then to look for an answer. And one that is a frustrated and another class of speech. And the people and say that they are that there are such categories. But have they are more comfortable and americans are paranoid. Into lou classifies certain things but i would be interested in hearing your thoughts of that distinction between hate were non hate speech. The name of the book is hate. So absolutely we have to fight these hateful attitudes in discrimination and violence. I am more convinced than ever and then i expect the next time around. It and i have that research of decades of european countries. With those hate speech laws that to define even to go criminal. Even with that idea. That we do not allow punishment with that viewpoint of the idea. Lead if that is in a particular context that is in serious harm with that incitement to imminent violence because when you look at how the other democratic countries in first their losses so let it is interesting is these humanrights activist and International Human rights agencies advocating the state speech codes are backing away to say this has been effective for a change of of discrimination pergola get germany but absence of correlation germany has some of the strongest hate speech laws and that raises party got 13 percent of the vote they have had the enormous problems so nice not surprisingly advocates say lets move her Civil Society is a lot more constructive pressure to responding to hateful speech to what they would be to stand up for their rights. To dive into where this is coming from but you were for Heterodox Academy with the influence of Higher Education. So what can he teach us about what we see unfold on campus today . Father of a new math. So the concept of the paradox of intolerance or tolerance. He argues that in order to create a society that is free and open and tolerant you have to be intolerant of tolerance. I never made the case that College Students are reading this but speaking as if they have to talk about this need to put down intolerance in recognize they have their own level but the big question is to get to define . So even if you believed to have a tolerant society. Defining these views it becomes very sticky. That is with ha