Broadcast television very brig. Books including race matters and brother west living out loud. Robert george has Robert George and you meet the man sitting next to you . A little after he came to princeton were together and faculty seminars that we didnt know each other very well. And we interacted but we began teaching together in 2007 there is another story behind that but that is when the Teaching Partnership began. Host how did that begin professor west . There is a man named andrew he set up a magazine and was teaching a course and he asked me who i would like to have a dialogue worth that was a conservative. I said i would love to have a chance to have a dialogue with bobby george. We got together with a 45 minute dialogue based on the recording then when andrew left we continue to talk to her three hours and continued to talk and said we have to continue this conversation. So now we go 11 or 12 years all over the country. We had a wonderful time i have learned so much and vice versa it has been magnificent. He has been so good to me and my family. We aspire to that. So the meeting that began the Teaching Partnership we had the green light. They wanted to have a feature in each issue and i believe she was a religion major but they contacted brother cornell and he said he would like to interview me so that wasnt a conversatio conversation. So andrew came to me to sayay professor george, we are starting a magazine we would like interview the first interview to feature cornell last and we told him he could interview anybody he wanted and he wants to interview you. A i said let me get this straight. You can interview anybody you want and he wants to interview me . I said send the message back you tell professor west that professor george says i should be seeking baptism from you left left. And i did not catch that referencee with the baptism of jesus with baptism in the jordan river. [laughter] so we had that wonderful dialogue that was recorded then we went out to the car i am holding my hand on the latch for half an hour. Been just a couple of weeks after that the senior members got a letter from the dean of the college saying we want to encourage senior faculty members to teach freshman seminars with more interaction more established scholars and the freshman. So when i saw that letter and the request that we teach these immediately it occurred to mee that we should have that conversation with steen freshman mom dash 16 freshman once the word got out we would be teaching this together there was a big demand we had to read all essays to see which 16 we would choose an afterwards regis said we we will let the Registrars Office choose randomly then they decided they do it on firstcome first serve and student had to sign up at 7 00 oclock on a morningig and then of course they crashed the computer system. That is a beautiful thing about princeton so in terms of handson to write the senior thesis focusing on the undergrad those are wonderful places but with high quality undergraduate education princeton is number one i must say. [laughter] but i believe in the truth. Host we have invited you want to talk about your book you have written together. As part of harvard and University Press we both like it but you have to busy guys with a lot of responsibility and obligations we have traveledig around so we will get to it. We had some interviews together. Also princeton magazine. Host what you do in your book prof. George is you allow other scholars to rebut you in your review. That is how philosophy and education and learning works andscholarship works proceeds especially in the humanities and social sciences we live on we learn by presenting evidence now intellectual life where the field of philosophy began. To subject their views to criticism but cornell and i are old fashion socratic scholars that we believe in that kind of education. Host you also spend time talking about socrates and aristotle. Absolutely. Very much. He is a christian but we understand that richness and jerusalem to say deep education not cheap schooling but that makes us talk about the deep supposition you die when you give up those presuppositions to become more mature and more willing to grow and develop and it is very much a matter narrow wave you will still on of the fallible. Is it fair to say your books are all about selfexamination . But also the prophetic legacy of jerusalem. It is a matter of self surrender and giving jesus here giving himself at the deepest level. Get is theu socratic legacy but of judaism and islam and so forth that is surrendering to something bigger than you. But we tried and we know as human beings that there is some human overlap. Even as russell with the various issue. One of the points i make to our students is to render yourself capable of self surrender with our ultimate obligation and development is the great paradox to surrender ourselves but to get there to where you are capable of that you need selfmastery. And control your own wayward desires your own want and passion reason is in charge and appetite and passion reason is instrumental lies to create rationalizations for activities that can only harm us. How do we get to selfmastery . With the liberal Arts Education that is by subjecting ourselves to criticism challenging her own assumptions with her deepest identity forming and that is a big challenge because people dont want to do that. We tend to wrap emotions around conviction if we didnt we would never be motivated for justice of human rights or dignity but yet we wrap our emotions too tightly around our convictions. We abandon any possibility we become capable of but we should all aspire to. Host in your book you write laws do not make men moral only then can do that to do the morally right thing for the right reason professor west is that something you agree with . Absolutely. But that is so badly needed with position and money and status with the quality of character that we call soul craft the ways to be human as it relates to various virtues and value so talk about moral character that is something a professional cannot teach you. Something deeper about that self surrender and talked veabout one of the Great Questions why did socrates never cry and jesus never laugh . Socrates never cried because it was selfmastery that is not the proper response to your mothers funeral that jesus would weep but socrates never cried for there was a love for wisdom but you have to outsmart socrates and make your way to jerusalem. And jesus weeps for jerusalem and laughter lazarus but they still have a role but that is not enough. Because that shatters the numbness and the callousness and the indifference to let them know lowan and behold i know you attend a black church 25 years working in this place congratulations but the best of the black church is what . We are a people that have been hated 400 years but we teach how to love. That is high quality soul craft. Making his way in his own tradition. Any human being alternate faces the question what is the point of my life . What is worth doing or what is l worthwhile . That is in a certain culture to act in the context of that and react in that culture. So there will be powerful temptations because were in a culture that reinforces the belief of the status and prestige and social standing, well, power. Those are not bad things in themselves it depends on how you use it but the ultimate goal is to fail to see what is worthwhile with human rights. This is the mission for ourselves and for our students the integrity, honor, decency what are trulyy, fundamental making my fourth living what we should aspire to not just for their own sake for status or influence or social standing. That is a big challenge for those who are high achievers. Those students are going somewhere they have futures and investment banking, lawyers, medicine but they really face powerful temptations to believe it is standing and influence and power and wealth looked up by other people is what really matters. But when you havent even gotten close to being there until you have the strength of character the selfmastery for what is good is right tell try the line telling a princeton student you might recall going to stand up what you believe in. If you are truly openminded that can mark you as an outsider to be rejected. Now do you have the integrity to stand for that . That could cost you professionally because of education, social standing, your friends we remember how he died. They made him drink the hemlock and he was a martyr. He refused to go silent on the truth. He would play those apologies. That unintended he did speech. That will get you in deep trouble he does get in trouble in conservative circles left but he is willing based on his own commitment to be a person of integrity. I try to do that as well because it isnt a question of popularity we want to be nonconformist we want to be tied to a kingdom that is so much greater that the kingdom of god is within you but in this world with the domination and oppression to dominate the ways of the world. Will you come to terms with it . To be nonconformist you can always feed into that selfrighteousnessab. The problem generally is we tend to be tribal and tribalism is a problem and people expect to put with your own convictions and reflections lead you to a few on if you then you can be in big trouble. Thatca is true of the conservative like me with the most recent president ial campaign. I dont want to litigate donald trump right here but i just use this as an example because i would not play for the team i got a lot of heat. I didnt want to elect Hillary Clinton that got pushed back from other people but cornell was in the same position he refused to support Hillary Clintoncl he got the same heat on the conservative side from the liberal side. But he would not yield. He would not say okay i will stay silent. At many times ive even arrested between the two of you . Go to jail . He is the jailbird left laugh. I dont know mac down in ferguson i got a call from my brother. How much money . He knows i am broke. [laughter] with that is the love and respectt and support. I will tell you a lovely story in 2016 i was sworn in for the National Religious freedom serving on the commission so i was sworn in by chief Justice John Roberts so i asked brother cornell if he could do me the honor to hold the bible for me. The wonderful people from upstate new york. Is it around syracuse . But this bible was special from the Harriet Tubman house. The wonderful people there gave us the bible i could imagine what it must have cost her with an exclave of no money. Absolutely. That they gave us in the chambers but as we were walking up the steps i am walking with brother cornell and as we walked past a couple of Security Police but then we continue walking in and i turned to brother and say what was that about . He says this is the first time i was ever to the Supreme Court not to get elected left laugh. That was Martin Luther king day. Chief Justice Roberts was so gracious that was magnificent. There is a new 25th edition out of your book and in the new introduction cornell west you rightly live in one of the darkest moments of American History spiritual blackout and imperial meltdown. With integrity and honesty we have normalized our way of life and naturalized criminalityf making the crimes look as if they are natural. It could be a drone strike or wall street to engage in predatory lending so many different ways i call it four fight back because it isnt just a political issue but a moral and spiritual issue and only by example we need young people to say we still have love willing to fight and disagree not by abstract but the example. Why . Because the soul craft how many times did they work on television . Obviously this. Obviously that. That is a word from the in crowd to show they are part of the smart crowd but we dont believe in smartness we believe in wisdom. Smartness was tied to richness no accident donald trump if he was really the smartest and the richest in the room. But his sign and symptom of a society that has idolized richness. Five times as many drone strikes. So what happens is a spectacle can hide and can conceal with the morality and spirituality. Not just rightwing or leftwing or center just spiritual substance is not ideology. So what im trying to say is we are in catastrophic times. The orphan, the widow, the poor, the immigrant, the muslim, the jew,he the black, the Indigenous People and so on. That is a spiritual orientation. That book is very much about where are we 25 years after that i wrote the book and 93. I agree with the basics. Now we agree with things like markets and in inequality in itself is a bad thing. I think our problem is not market economy. I believe in the market eeconomy. I think it has looked at millions of people and lifted them out of poverty. My critique is we have traded in a true market economy for a crony capitalism were big and powerful firms can use government to regulate competitors off the field. Big firms can afford the price of regulation. Cowhen it comes to economic equality, i do not mind, i eqthink there will be economic inequality. Ll i dont have as a goal economic equality. I have the quality of the declaration of independence when it says that all men are created equal, we are all of equal worth, but ive chosen a career as an academic and i know thats not a particularly high paying field andququ im e couldve gone to Business School or law school and a lot more money. I dont have any problem as long as its fair. My worry is not for a quality, economic equality, my worry is for. [inaudible] we have lost the prospect of upward mobility. I grew up in western virginia. I remained close to people my entire family. All my family, my high school friends, friends and relatives, this is donald trump country. They are feeling the effects of being neglected, of being left behind. They feel without bigotry or prejudice, but certainly on the basis of their own experience as if there is a cultural elite, a wealthy, powerful cultural elite that has only its own interest in mind. Not the interest of working people and they have nothing but contempt. Those were trump voters. Im not one of those guys who condemn it. Not a fan of donald trump and i wasnt from the beginning and ill give him credit for some good things hes done. But still criticize him for some bad things hes done but i think its a mistake to imagine those supporters of donald trump are racists and bigots and horrible people. They had legitimate reasons which no one in either party, the establishment of Neither Party responded too. Donald trump reached out to them whether they were wise to look to him, we can debate that. I have debated that with my relatives and friends in west virginia, but he noticed those people were forgotten, were left behind, were looked down on and were held in contempt and war was waged on their economy. You agree with what he saying about the trump voters . There are those who are xena phobic and racist and sexist sexist and homophobic but that doesnt exhaust the whole group. There is a racist slice of trump followers. These arrows that you see sticking out of me, based come from the alright. Its a whole host of other things. Theres also a slice of trump voters who had voted for bernie and who had voted for obama. Youve got to keep track of that diversity. You never want to downplay the role of the vicious legacy of White Supremacy in the country. Theres no doubt about that. This fighting, its so vicious , you cannot allow it to be the only thing you see. All you can see his White Supremacy. Thats always linked to Something Else, linked to predatory capitalism and slavery and jim crowe and homophobia and also. [inaudible] they can treat the philippines like their cockroaches because you got an empire. Youve got to be very honest and telling the truth and brother robbie and i say look, lets tell the truth of who they are. They are a heterogeneous lot. Many of them are suffering under neoliberal policies under barack obama, the top 1 got 95 of the income growth. I find that to be morally grotesque. I dont agree for wholesale economic equality, but i want a floor. I will focus on poverty. I was deeply concerned about making sure poverty is attacked. Hes been trying to do that with conservatives. I try to do is barack obama and the others for the Democratic Party has had no major concern about poor people. Streeten tied to wall and upward mobility for the professional and middle classes when it comes to working people who are poor and poor people not working at all, hes had very little to say other than some movement on healthcare and thats the marketdriven Healthcare Program coming out of the Heritage Foundation established by mitt romney, a mormon brother who is not known for being on the cutting edge of fighting against poverty, but he is somebody who in the Republican Party did some decentt things in regards to healthcare. Thats where the Healthcare Program comes from. We want to be honest about that. Let us try to tell the truth about both of our parties, deeply narrow when it comes to these issues of poverty, jack kemp and the others putting pressure on the Republican Party, the legacy of Martin Luther king putting pressure on the Democratic Party and so on. I think the other side of this thing which you really have to be honest about is the marketdriven Corporate Media that made donald trump the center of entertainment when i he made big money. One of the ceos made it very clear, donald trump is bad for the country, good for us. Why is it good for you . Revenues, readings. They followed every speech, every twitter, Bernie Sanders got like 20 seconds for every 30 minutes that donald trump got. Why not have equal treatment. No, its marketdriven even in nthe media. Thank god for cspan. Can you imagine what the quality of public dialogue would be in this country w