This is just over an hour welcome, everybody. I apologize for the lack of space. More people showed up and we were expecting. If you were expecting jayz will be o on the panel, i apologize. This is an Academy Briefing and we have been doing these things since about 1996, which is pretty remarkable. These are meant to be informative issues, discuss things on as we see them and we try to provide a good baseline understanding some of these key issues. Todays panel is in the era of streaming who is a bigger music mogul, jayz or congress, and in conjunction with the congressional hearing caucus and the cochairs on this and inside or senator john thune and senator Patrick Leahy and the house side is anna eshoo and a few weeks ago the congresswoman announced that the congressman from georgia would be the cochair of the house side of the caucus and we are thrilled to have him. Without any particular policy approach or advocacy is a brave thing to do and they want to have more information and education on these difficult issues my name i is jimmy and im the director of the caucus academy. A little bit of housekeeping. It will be on cspan today lie on cspan. Org also tonight on time on cspan television. The hash tag today is music moguls and you can follow along at caucusac and we will broadcast afterwards. Let me start off by setting the stage. This is supposed to be an educational events. Congress has been very involved in music and a lot of people dont know that and a lot of people dont understand where congress is involved for the federal government and oversight of those things that you would be surprised to find that out. Wwe will go into more detail on that in just a minute. There are a lot of players in the marketplace an market this o understand. We didnt have the space for the time to do that so this is a good group of folks to my right is the executive Vice President. An artist and songwriter and producer and next to him is julia Vice President of the Global Policy profound exchange and she will explain kind of what that is and what that organization does. And then next to her is curtis who is the executive Vice President of the National Association of broadcasters. And then finally at the end, the senior policy counsel for the communication industry association, and then singer and songwriter so we are thrilled to have this group of folks. I guess we will do fine with a music mogul is. Its money, jayz, they reported that hes worth a billion dollars. Thats a lot. Congresss net worth, i dont know what his net worth is. Explains a lot. We can argue about that later. The Cultural Impact of jayz and people like taylor swift and other folks like that is part of our fabric of song and music and its hard to quantify that. But i think for the purpose of the panel we will probably talk about your power to control your creativity into music and that is where it gets a little bit interesting. Congress has tried to get involved to be a part of how musicians get compensated and how they control their copyright and that is the heart of what youre talking about as a music mogul wa that can control musicd the like. So, just to go way back like 200,000 years since the beginning of the species, phone and music has been such an important part of who we are. Its been around to tell our history and inspire us and its hard to underestimate the impact and influence of music and song when it comes to us as a species. But it hasnt been until recently we were able to start kind of controlling our music. Years ago when they were telling stories to music they were unable to copyright them and they were not able to record them. Unfortunately, at the beginning of the republic here in the United States and about 1790, there was the first copyright act during that time, Congress Actually gave a copyright for the composition, the notes and the lyrics of the music that somebody would write. And then finally come over the last century or so, we created new ways to keep that sound recording of that music and transmitted to a larger audience. As we broadcast radio and part of the 20th century. Then we had, Cable Television and then we launched satellites into space, and then eventually the internet came along. So there has been all those new development on how we can transmit the sound recording and thats where it gets really complicated. It was pretty easy 200,000 years ago, nobody had any right to do anything with a reason. They just sing songs around the camp fire. On the way over here, we all took a number from my office in the uber driver was really chatty and said where you going whats going on. And i said, were going to talk about music moguls in congress and he looked at me like i was crazy i said no really, and he said what to about. And i said turns out look at your dashboard, and he had all his apps on innocent every button that you see, is controlled by different regulatory regime. Artists and songwriters are compensated differently depending on the button push. Lets say you play all about that base by making trainer. And we had that one song in your to play that if you could on everything a bun that had, the competition for that would be very different for each one of the services. Youve a button that is a spotify off on your dashboard and thats what we would call interactive music streaming. You can actually specify which songs you want to listen to, megan trainer, justin bieber, you make your playlist. Then pandora app on his dashboard, that is what we call noninteractive streaming. It streams to you, you cant control it, but you get we get basically. Then theres another button with his itunes playlist, is a ready downloaded, he was able to play his entire playlist, thats a different regime because the songs that he had a copy of and stored on his computer. Then theres the fm button, if you pressed it and you get lucky and megan trainer comes on, that the same song for over a broadcast airway and it comes into your car with the tuner, and you tune your childhood and it catches the analog transmission and thats a different one. I think i captured his entire dashboard. Then theres the sirius exim satellite radio button and that is regulated a little bit differently. We wont talk about cable because its hard to drive, but basically thats kind of it. He looked at me like i was nuts but it is actually true. And we dont think about that and we walked on the street or gartner cars or listen to music, we dont give it much thought. But behind the scenes congress is heavily involved and flushes out a little bit more of who the players are, let me go to kevin, he will lay out who the players are, who they are and what the copyrights are involved in this. So last year i was running around working on the music modernization. And this is so competent, so i got the puppet. [laughter] so sally the songwriter comes up with notes and lyrics and to write the notes and lyrics down on paper, she has written a really great song. So to market the song and bring it to the marketplace to potentially get movies into get out audiences, she partners with the publisher. Do we have a publisher . Its a publishers job to help get that out audiences and she could potentially approach recording artist to see [laughter] okay, so she does a really good job, she is able to get we ricky the recording artist, and he agrees to record the song. And he goes into the studio and comes out with a complete sound recording. This is a different copyright. In the revenue for flows different. So ricky comes out of the studio with a sound recording hold on. Is ricky there. [laughter] ricky partners with a record label, the record label helps ricky market that sound recording. Then they sound the sound recording and a master for the sound recording in the intellectual copyright embedded in the sound recording. I want you to notice i want you to notice they have different hats. Red hat are the notes in the words, the musical composition, the teal hats, those of the sound recording. The performance is captured by microphone to magnetic paper to an audio file in the recording studio. When you think through life and think its really helpful to think through these copyright separately because licensing and compensation works different from each one. Money from composition goes to sally in the publisher rat. In most cases, a company that wants to use music cost to arrange a license for the composition and sound recorder. They had to make sure both sally and ricky get paid. There is one big exception, sometimes a Single Person will play multiple roles. For exhibit, sally may decide really talented, im going to choose to record my own song in a max of comfortable publishing it and releasing it commercially my cell. So she will act as her own publisher and record label. So she would wear all four of these hats but in that case it is still helpful in understanding how the licensing works to think through each one of the Revenue Streams differently. And to think through each one of those roles. Alternatively sometimes people Work Together to create a musical composition. You may have ten different songwriters working together to write a song with ten different publishers representing. Its important to crate systems to make sure all those folks get whatever money they earned in those circumstances. It has a lot to do with determining how much he gets paid and how the money gets to them. Congress has a role in determining what exists, what their offerings are, how much it cost and whether they have any special obligations to public in terms of localism diversity, user privacy, consumer disclosure about sponsorship. Congress can do this sometimes directly and sometimes in the oversight role over the federal agencies and jurisdiction. Then as new technologies are adopted, to mention that music licensing works different ways for different types of services and met lou noll loss to make sure the money goes were supposed to go. There like performing Rights Organizations. I go around to different types of services, i collect money from them, look red hat. And i pay sally the songwriter in the publisher. Those first were set up in the early days of radio and i we have four major performing Rights Organization on the composition side. And then, later on, julie will talk more, sound exchange was set up, the job is to pay these guys, the artist in the label. There you go. And most recently as a part of the music modernization act, a new body called the mlc was set up, and when thats operational they will collect mechanical royalties on the Digital Space from spotify, apple music, and these will be paid to the publisher and the publisher entered will pay the songwriter. I think thats good. Thats a good start. [laughter] [applause] thank you kevin. I was a little nervous about that but that was great. I think one of the things i mentioned, there are a lot of people that represent up there, a huge oversight that we dont have a performance Rights Organization, a pr rope. And is committed, that is either ascap, bmi, and i remember the of acronyms. Physicallybasically, lets go to elaborate on the sound recording side, i think recently you mightve heard that taylor swift had been upset that her first four albums had been left to control. Maybe allie can ask point what that means and kevin just had to keep a fictional sound recording there. Im happy to follow up on kevins presentation. As kevin mentioned, theres two copyrights, there is a composition news go work which is the songwriter writes a song, fixed into music or recording. That he showed all the different intermediaries the help license out the different rights. Then theres a sound recording side which is the artist and labels. One thing and not discussed, in addition to music, theres a copyright. In addition to being the two copyrights, copyrights are often described as a bundle of rights. So if your copyright owner, your exclusive right to do a bunch of different things. A right to reproduce, distribute, publicly perform, display, write to prepare drooping of works, those of the main ones. A lot of what we will talk about is a Public Performance part, private performance if you sing in the shower, you dont have to worry about copyrights, but the Public Performance part is a lot of what kevin was expanding to a vervarious different entities to license out services in order to make sure that the artist is getting compensated. Another thing were not getting too much today, this also affects any place where music is played. That is most restaurants or bars that have the radio or spotify or pandora or other Services Playing in there. That includes live music, so a lot of times these will have helped distribute these. So, as you mentioned the sound recording copyright just been in the news lately, talk of masters, asked her is the individual sound recording once its completed and everyone and all the people at the music producer labels has been completed. So were talking about copyright a lot, but theres also a lot of intersection with other areas of law including contract law, employment law, 70 different intersections that copyrights intersect with. So the master recording, a lot of times when artist, especially the beginning of their career will sign with different stakeholders in order to help fund making music. But its pretty standard for artist to not own these. Sometimes later in your career, we have to have the right terminated back to you or the power to buy the back when youre music mobile like rihanna. Hers is not able too so she had written about it, controversy about it. I think that shows us that even people that have power it can be really complicated figuring out who is able to retain these important pieces of music, but also is being transferred from one owner it did not really changed that much but it really helped that people talking about this issue a lot. Another thing that happened with master recently, mightve her, there was recording about 2008, that involves a lot of master recordings from iconic pre1972 music. It was really devastating. The music modernization act, we will talk more about later, did not change some of the things that affect daytoday music distribution, music reproduction and will help to bring together these different players, some of which are here, there are 70 people that are affected by music and owned different pieces of this music marketplace puzzle. But that is all as some of you may have known, from being in Congress Lost her, that was a pretty big thing that happened lester, there was a consensus bill where it changed some of the important music roles and built on a lot of the history that congress has had in the past so part of that is there rules for pianos and try to figure out how to supply the streaming. Its a really big challenge but a lot of people came in together and pass a consensus bill last year that will talk more about later. Thomas edison give us ability to record a sound into a sound recording like the masters. Over the years new technologies came along to take the sound recording and transmit it to audiences like radio, radio broadcast, telephone, the internet, satellite. As a happens over a pretty time, Congress Jumps into deal with the new technology and try to figure this out. Thats why it might become located. Allie just talked about the sound recording in the performance right, when you take the sound recording and send it over the internet or over broadcast, its a Public Performance. The other part as kevin detail, its actual notes that are written down. And actually create it. So people represent them, the National Association, not every songwriter is part of this, but a lot are. So daniel, if you can elaborate on the composition and what it means in white important in the different types of transmissions . Hey everyone, im dania, im from the National Music publishing association. We represent publishers and their songwriting partners, i will get into it a little bit more but there is a very songwriter based on a national, he says often hes testified on the hill under brick times that songwriting is americas smallest Small Business and its true. But also happens to be one of the most heavily regulated by congress. It has almost 75 of its revenue regulated by congress through various laws as well as will get into later that are governed by the department of justice. It is a very small industry. Its the entire industry, both the publishers and songwriters is probably two to 3 billiondollar industry in the United States. If you think about how you listen to music today, whether its apple music, sirius exim, you know that any of those companies, individually have multiple billions more than our entire industry. Yet whether or not its heavily regular. When you think about how you listen to music you probably dont know how mean just under music is originally created by songwriters and then to be distributive by publishers who help songwriters in more ways than distribution, they help songwriters create music and live while they are crating music, they help them partner with other writers so they could write songs, they help them partner with artist so they can record the song. All of that is heavily regulat regulated, and for the most part the royalties that are received by songwriters and Music Publishers are set by the government, they are calculated by the government and their calculated in proceedings that people like me and others have to go to every few years to actually do a trial to set what the rates will be. I think when you are think about daisies sound recording you think hes pretty powerful. But the funny thing is, if you thing about him for the songs that he is written, he is probably not as big as a music mobile as you think. For most of his rights for most of the songs that are played over spotify wrapper music he does not have a chance to say no you cannot use my songs if you dont use the rate that i think is a fair rate. He has to let those Digital Services use the songs and distribute the songs as a songwriter. So very briefly, i think theyve gotten to this a lot already. We will talk about two of the rates, theres a number of other rights, one is a mechanical right and that really is the copy and distribution, so going way back to the mid90s, we are talking about cds industry beating them, were talking about downloading songs on apple music, now were talking about interactive streaming on spot fire or google play or any other, pandora plus. You are talking about actually copy in industry beating the sound recording. In order to play song on spotify, you have your playlist on spotify, a copy has to be made of that. As opposed to broadcast radio where it streaming at you and it disappears if you dont catch it. So the mechanical right, the first set in 1909, as allie said the piano roll. Up until recently, probably it worked fairly well, but most of the time it would be record labels that would send a notice to a songwriter or the publisher and say we want to use a song, we want to license it, here is a compulsory license because its a compulsory license under section 115 of the copyright act. And they would say we will pay you this statutory rate and they would play the song and it would be great. Then you have spotify and google and other streaming services saying wel would anyone license need 30 million and became an cop located to serve 30 million songs. We will get into how we have tried to fix that a music modernization act in a little bit. And have performance rates, those represented a performing Rights Organizations, the two largest being a cap and bmi. Aztec and bmi are governed in large part by regulatory structure set up in 1941 that were entered into the department of justice. Does anybody know what a consent degre to koreas its wn they jump in and say, you guys control the songs, and there might be competition issues, so they bundled them and each have separate licenses for these works. They brought them into a decree so they can oversee the competition aspects of those holdings. So those 1941 Consent Decrees still exist today. And today, performance rates are set by two federal judges in the Southern District of new york, where royalty rates cant be agreed to through negotiation with licensees and for performing rights, thats almost everything you listen to on your car dashboard. That is interactive streaming services, pandora, sears six si, its how they get paid. Thats good. I apologize for not having those appear, i think they would articulate it as, i hope i dont misstate this, in a lot of ways musicians when it comes to the rates they could go around individual, daisy could write a song and he could go around individually to everyone, how money broadcast Radio Stations other . 14000. Daisy could go to all of them and try to negotiate a contract with them but if you go to all the other different venues that are played his music and try to negotiate a rate, as i think daisy decided he would join ascap, and they do that for him. And thats why those performance Rights Organizations exist so daisy wants to focus on the art and not negotiating with every broadcaster. I think what is important to state about all of this. You are hearing, this is unquestionably a complicated landscape and is for the cop located by the fact that each segment of the landscape is treated differently, a lot has to do with historical anachronisms, yet congress having a hand in one piece and as daniel pointed out Justice DepartmentConsent Decree that governs the Public Performance right with musical works. But i think if you step back from it, what you are looking at is this. You have a lot of rights holders in the space. And as a broadcaster, assuming service, a restaurant, a bar, any one of whom publicly performing music and subject to one or both of the copyright in the need to secure permissions as described law, it is incomprehensible as to how any licensee would do that and from the rights holders perspective, there is a real policy interest in ensuring it wont just be the rights holder thats affiliated with a major record label or music publisher who is able to get there music out of the echo system. But you want everyone to have access. So for better or for worse, different areas of this law are put together to attempt to enable efficient procompetitive licensing from the licensee side, but also the ability of rights holders to get their music out there in a world where you are talking about billion ms of rights and this could easily skew into a landscape that is dominated by major players. And luckily that is not what we have for the most part in the music space in this country. Said by somebody whose members are not regulated heavily as ours. [laughter] i would disagree with that. Every station in this country has to go to the fcc and get a license before we can even go and say we are open for business. Im not sure theres an industry in this country more regulate regulated before i get there, since this is a congressional caucus, lets talk about the internet, in 1985 which was the year before the caucus was created for before the landmark telecommunication and which do not mention much of the internet. There was something called the digital Performance Rights and sound recording act of 1995. And as allie said, there was not a copyright for the performance of the recording. The congress stepped in 1995 to deal with the digital issues and streaming. When i say streaming, kind of like the pandora model or the cable music model where streams come to you, song after song after song, he pick a genre but you cant select which playlist you want to play. So julia is very involved in the sound exchange is a function of the act in 1985, and if you can explain what the acted and how your organization came into being. Sure. I love how kevin lay this out. You have to remember that there are two separate copyrights. Sound Exchange Works and was created on our funding, we were about making sure the artist and the record labels were compensated for the use other sound recordings. I was going to Start Talking about the 1995, two laws were passed, one in 1985 and one in 1998, by saying were going to into history but when tim started talking about his uber and 200,000 years ago he realized this is not that much into history but it feels like it now. Because in 1990, if you think about the Music Services that were popping up in music being distributed over the internet in 1995 in a 1998, is a different landscape and different players than we have now. In 1985, sound recordings were the only performable copyrighted work that did not have a performance right in u. S. Law. That means that at the time, ricky, the recording artist and his label did not have a right to be paid when there sound recording was played. Whether that meant over the radio or digital using service. This core perspective, the kinds of works it did have a performance right and you have a performance right, musical compositions, motion pictures, dramatic works, Literary Works and pantomimes. In core graphic works. Fanta might have a performance right but said recordings did not. In 1995 members of congress were hearing about new Digital Music technology at satellite and cable Music Services and the reality that those distribution was likely and already disrupting the ability of recording artists and record labels ability to recruit their Creative Investments in their work. At that moment, they were making returns on their investment through fiscal sales to see the sales so congress stepped in at that point and created a new framework. That new framework came in the Digital Performance right in sound recording act of 1995 in the digital one he him copyright act of 1998 with the dmca. So those change a lot of things in the copyright law. Sound exchange, i will talk about four things. That those two huge laws did. First, most of portly, they granted a performance right in sound recordings for digital, audio transmissions only. So not the full Performance Rights that musical compositions enjoy but only for Digital Audio transmissions, that means performances or place Digital Services, cable music, the stations wait at the top of her cable box, webcasting services, like pandora, satellite radio like sirius xm, but only in the United States. And also constituents, exim Radio Stations final custom line when they do that digitally . Right. If i am sitting on my desktop listening as i did when i first moved to washington, d. C. And listen to my favorite Radio Station from home in texas i wish you could still do that. You dont think that i dont . I will give a shout out to the station but. [laughter] there is a performance right in law thanks to these tube laws. Sound recording copyright owners were subject to compulsory license. For the use of their musics by noninteractive digital Music Services. I want to make sure that they understand what those two things mean. Can use by what compulsory means. Daniel talked about a compulsory license, this is hard because we are working together on these Organization Act and had hundreds of meetings and sometimes its hard to remember, there are terms that are intuitive, compulsory license means heres an industry that has waited for decades and decades to get a performance right in the law. But in exchange for getting the limited performance right, they were also subjective to compulsory license in the what that means, they are required under the law to let services that i will define in the second, use whatever music they want. So they get the performance right but they dont have the right to control who is using the sound recording. It is a compulsory license, and people often refer to this as a statutory license. It is for noninteractive, and you talked about the a little bit, basically radio like, not on demand, you cannot decide what the next song youre going to hear is. You might be able to say i want to hear recordings like this one you can decide the exact thing you will hear next. So the license for noninteractive digital Music Services and royalties collected under that license under the law were split 5050, half of the royalties went to the copyright owner who is usually the record label, although there are many artist today the only recordings, and 50 to the artist. 5 of the artist share under these royalties, and this is all in section 114 of the copyright act. Some people refer to it as 114 license. 5 of those royalties on the artist side also go to a fund and that fund that those royalties are disturbed and to all of the non feature performers in the recording. Backup vocals, backup musicians. And that is unique in the Recording Industry that those are to share from the recordings. The third thing, because a performance rate was created, it created an established ability for copyright owners to enter into voluntary Licensing Agreements or direct Licensing Agreements. For services that were not eligible to use the compulsory license. Tonight have, services that want to use everything and you have new licenses and services that maybe want to have the ondemand where you have services that want the right to play straighter. They can go to the copyright owner directly and try to negotiate a license, pausing for a second there. That means if you want to start a Digital Music service in the United States, you have two choices, you can push the easy button and you go over to the Copyright Office and say i am starting the service and planing to rely on the 114 license and they will tell you, go to sound exchange, youve given us notice, you paid the 25, you enter the three multiplechoice question and the rest of it you will be able to sound exchange to pay the royalties break or even start an Interactive Service if you want some other special capability that is required, then you go to every copyright owner for the sound recordings they want to use and negotiate a Licensing Agreement. You can see this created efficiency for services they wanted to get off the ground. So the fourth thing that these two did was congress realizing and creating in the system we are creating is in billions of small transactions between many, many many tens of thousands of people, so they called for collected to be formed to administer that license and all of those transactions. So, in 2000 industry started forming the collective in a 2003 the exchange became the independent notforprofit collective and with full representation of the industry on the board we have an 18 member board, it is half copyright owners in the representatives and have representatives of artist. Artist unions, we have two artist underwear, managers, lawyers and since 2003 we have been independent collective with the duty to represent the entire industry before the copyright royalty board and sets rates for all the types of Services Want to bail themselves of the compulsory license. We do imagine when this license came in to become a there was not a single registered artist. So we establish this, here we are fast forward 16 years, we have 180,000 plus account that we pay royalties into, representing copyright owners and artist. We are collecting royalties from 3000 plus services that are relying on the compulsory license and we do have a record to a database sound recordings in the tens of millions and we also administer some of those direct Licensing Agreements because we have built this platform for that. Essentially, the statue of the 1995 performance digital Performance Rights in sound recording act, in a way created your organization. Sure, it called for the creation of the organization and created a platform on which all of Digital Music streaming. We have 815 minutes left or just a little bit less. I want to go to questions about this issue to the audience in just a minute. Is it too early for me too go to the mma discussion to might were driver and dashboard and to explain if he presses the spotify app in place jayz song and jayz wrote the music but was performed by some videos. How much does he get paid for that. As her statutory . Lets say its a spotify button. Why dont iran through that dashboard really quickly. Really quickly. No one is taking notes on exactly how much, im not try to say the not paid enough, just to give an example. You can find them on the website. Excellent memos about them. But if you sitting on the dashboard and this is where itll get fun for critters. If you have a car thats newer than mine and you have a screen like uber does and you touch the pandora button, the artist, ricky and his label are being paid at a rate set by the copyright royalty board under a standard of fair market value, the closest we can come to fair market value under government regulated system. , i will stitch over to sirius xm, they have a direct Licensing Agreement but even spotify, spotify is entirely directly license, it does not rely on this license. So the performer and record label are getting rates negotiated by the copyright owner. In deciding upon between spotify and the copyright owner. If you touch the sirius xm sirius xm comes from a satellite in orbit exactly satellite up there in transmitting down to a. One of the bizarre twist and 95 and 98 loss, what osaka earlier, sirius xm came to congress and argued were putting satellites in the air, we were not playin planing on paying fo. This is a surprise. You cannot surprise us. So they negotiated to get a below market rate, for 20 years until last year, copyright owners on sunday recording signed were forced by the government to turn their music over to Satellite Radio Services and except a below market rate for their use. Because they come to congress 20 years ago and negotiated a coupon from the government for the use. I apologize,. They should be here, but the heres the thing, that was fixed. One of the really important things, it does not mention much because there were big changes in the bill. So now, Going Forward when rates are set for sirius xm, they will pay rate that set of fair market value. If youre listening to fm radio. Anyone can jump in. If an uber driver presses a song on fm radio. If youre listening to jayz over the air on the sound recording signed the fm station pays nothing and never has paid anything. So no recording artist has ever got a penny from fm radio because there is not a performance right the cover that. Danielle on the publisher site, on broadcast radio, the fm button, does jayz get paid as a publisher . Yes he would get paid a performance royalty for the performance of the song. And that ray is dictated by . If curtis members cannot reach an agreement voluntarily, particularly they go to arete court and they have a trial to determine what the rate is. I agree with daniel, obviously that characterization pays hundreds of millions of dollars to the pr owes on the musical worksite. I do want to speak to the sound recording piece. As everyone in this room is aware that congress is about the gives and takes a balancing policy. And broadcast radio and policymakers, we have seen for decades, recognize the value of what our members do that is distinct from every service that has been discussed over the core of this panel, what we offer is completely free. We are not spotify, not sirius xm, not music choice, which is your cable Music Service. We offer something you dont need to pay a subscription or inexpensive data plan. Its free over the air listeners and congress has agreed with our listeners in our membership who is implored over the course of decades for establishing and maintaining a Legal Framework for that. I would also say, our members, our stations are uniquely, locally focused. So there is a reason that you have a local Radio Station weather in new york city, washington, d. C. , or helena montana. Again, that dissemination has led to some balances, gives and takes that have persuaded members of congress to recognize that those Digital Services, when they were writing this act in 1995 in 1998 are different. In the local Radio Stations stream, they should be treated just as pandora is treated for its honor active service. But when we are doing with the sec has license us to do which is to offer an analog and digital signal completely free over there local service, news, weather, emergencies, a different Legal Framework for that. Are you going to leave theres a different Legal Framework for that and it is we dont have time to go into right now but there it has to do with the advent of songwriting which was 200,000 years ago, the advent of the Recording Industry which is not nearly as long ago and the advent of radio which was between those two things. We submit that radio is a Music Service, they dont do it out of the goodness of their heart. They do it because they make 17 billion a year selling ads and they do that against the audience they draw and they draw that with music they dont pay for. So to say that there are local Radio Stations and often when we argue for the creation of an fm performance what we hear is you are going to put small local Radio Stations out of business and we have no interest in that. The digital Music Services, the profits they make from music with the people who make music. Go ahead. Digital Music Service in addition to the point i made earlier about how it is complicated it is also expensive than the cost of getting it wrong, statutory damage of 150,000, so many individual songs we need to get to be useful for users and listen to what you want on it and so many different transaction costs, it is expensive. When you try to do anything and the owners of the rights of the artists and songwriters in various intermediaries in between. It is complicated and expensive. There should be more music played joint legally and a lot of industry here that we didnt get into here, how sound recordings are covered by state law until 1972. All this litigation over that is complicated to follow the rule even when you are trying hard except for people who dont have that when you want to listen to music the right way. What was passed last october, for purposes of section 115, easier and streamlined for Digital Services. And to popularly pay copyright owners and lets not forget that we all love music and some of you make your own music. Those creations are copyrighted and cant license properly. It should never be an excuse that it is really hard to license and pay people so we should have a compulsory license, make a choice about how music is distributed or how they get paid or how much value they think their songs have. I want to make sure we all take that away, one thing we take away, when you create anything as a creator you wanted to have value and a say and how it is used. Interestingly enough, the federal regulations, a lot of times songwriters dont do that. We get a little understanding how this works and when you listen to a song depending how you are listening to what it is regulated differently and that is Something Congress is involved in. One question from the audience, to the panel, who is more powerful as a music mogul, jayz or congress . In the back, cspan has a microphone. No questions . To understand stuff you have to have a four credit course in college to understand the stuff and the economics of the ratesetting you need a phd in economics to understand the right things. If you dont understand it dont worry. Back to the question of who is more of a music mogul, j the or congress when it comes to control over music and how it works . Any perspective on that . From a songwriting perspective just because of the heavy regulation, i would say congress. It is an outdated way of thinking of it. Historically they make the investment and create a lot of new value, a lot comes from private equity. They are the ones driving consolidation including radio and driving away from local focuses they had historically, homogenous playlists in every city. Artist and songwriters and the public interest, the sustainability the real power comes from creators of congress to create a future that works for all of us. I like the way you put that. I think in as much at the level the Carter Family creates and puts music out there what they have control over they are clearly in control but theres a lot congress does to control their ability to make money from their own work and that is the unfinished business. I would say beyonce. I still say jayzee because of the level of success but i will also say that jayzee and artist songwriters of that caliber are the exception and there is no doubt that as you look at the ecosystem and we talked about it from the services, broadcasters, all the way down the chain from the performing Rights Organization to the publisher to the songwriter on one side on the musical work side and sound exchange, the label and the artist on the sound recording side the creator is undoubtedly the last one to be compensated on this chain and that is something that i think as policymakers is worth taking a look at, the balance of interests, and Service Versus creator, some of them i dated, many have value in a lot of different ways but there is no doubt you have market power issues in part of the distribution chain, you have a lot of complication, creators signing away rights at early ages. Theres a lot for congress to look at but i want to sign on to everyones comments. We are all for ensuring the most music out there, in any variety of forms and with any of you if your bosses are interested in taking a look. On the premise of the question i appreciate kevin challenging the premise. Judiciary and executive office, jayz in a relationship with beyonce, congress came together, not the we want to listen to it but there are good musicians in congress and they saying a song and composted and jd did the same thing, turns out congress doesnt have the ability to copy write that song. J the winds. Is that correct . I believe that is yours. I believe so. Jayzee is killing it. I want to thank our panelists including sally and mickey and everyone else who participated. I hope to see you again soon. Reagan is an intellectual. He is intellectual, he is comfortable with ideas. He understands the power of ideas. With that kind of foundation, intellectual foundation, political leader does all kinds of marvelous things. Author and historian lee edwards will be our guest on in depth sunday from noon to 2 00 pm eastern, Mister Edwards is the author of just right, a collection of biographies of william f buckley, Barry Goldwater and ronald reagan. Watch in depth with arthur lee edwards, noon to 2 00 pm