It is august. It Means Congress and the president are on vacation. Todays topic is not on vacation. And it wont be, at least to the 2020 election. The Wilson Center isnt putting off the conversation. That being said, this information is hardly a new problem that in the midst of this cold war the United States and soviet union both try to influence political and social narratives in other parts of the globe. For example, a new article published by the Wilson Centers history of Public Policy program has unearthed and related russian documents related to operation denver interesting name. Its a campaign in the 1980s to spread the life that hiv was created as a result of the pentagons biological weapons research. So, disinformation wasnt invented in 2016 and family, unlikely to be buried in 2020 but today we delve into the context and have the right moderator and speakers to do that. Our first battle, which starts right now, is on historical patterns. Moderating is the very talented, kate baldwin. The anchor of cnn morning show at this hour and formally the coanchor of a new day and the situation room with wolf blitzer. Kate and her colleagues have done critical work on the topic. Earlier this year cnn created an interactive website that shows the danger of deep fakes, doctored but realistic videos that can show public figures saying and doing things they never did. 2016 the pentagon has spent at least 68 million on technology to detect deep fakes. But the issue is unlikely to go away before 2020. We are also joined vote by our very own, very, very own cannot dig which, a global fellow with a institute who is writing the book on russian how much do i get for this . Book on russian disinformation. [laughter] it comes out next summer called how to lose the information war based on our on the ground experience in ukraine and we welcome jessica buyer, a lecturer and Research Scientist at the university of washingtons Jackson School of International StudiesWhose Research has focused on International Cyber security and nonstate actors as well as online political activism and finally, the director of strategic projects, Cyber Security and democracy and put that on a calling card of microsoft, drying on years of experience in Political Campaign. She worked on Microsoft Partnership with the Iowa Caucuses in 2016 to create a Smart Phone App for caucus organizers to report the results of the vote more quickly and accurately than before. So, in conclusion in todays complex world its more important than ever to provide real facts and trustworthy information. Everyone and everyplace is being tested, including the Wilson Center. We are doing our best and we really need our friends on this Panel Including the media to do its parts. I look forward to todays panel, two panels, kate, over to you. Thank you, jane. Not surprisingly, jane lays out the challenge, the issue of the topic in today really well. I think before you look forward you must look back. That is where i think we should start with history, the patterns and trends of what were seeing what comes to disinformation. Maybe starting with operation denver as jane talked about but nina, i wonder disinformation is not new and how far back do you look to where you would say the first real Disinformation Campaign youve been researching, where do you put it up . A lot of people want to go back to the soviet time and compare what we saw ben with whats now but theres an important difference. While the tactics are the same the tools have changed. Social media allows the information getting put out there and its not all fake. Its usually grounded in a kernel of truth or real feelings, real discontent that his weapon eyes to fight bad actors, including russia and other foreign actors. The social media allows those bad actors to spread those messages much more quickly allow them to travel at lightning speed and also allow those messages to be targeted to the very people who will find the most appealing and that is what makes what were seeing today so much more difficult to counter. Looking at the modern era in disinformation 2. 0, my book started 2007 in estonia with the crisis when a lot of false stories about how ethnic russians in democratic estonia were being treated in this new era were spread among the population they are. It led to riots and led to some real social discourse that the estonian government that had to counter. They did that not by trying to do about voices of the press or counter narratives that were grounded in truth about how the russian population was feeling but did that by reading the ethnic russians back into the fold by focusing on integration and education that something will come back to later today i can promise that. Jessica, we all know at this point, especially everyone in this room, we all know what disinformation means generally and probably but define the term for us. This is what im most interested in. You say its not always what it seems but its whats the difference between disinformation and propaganda human. Rights. Nothing in academic love being asked to define something. Most people talk about disinformation as information that is false and with an intent to deceive attached to it. Academics talk about misinformation is Bad Information that spread unwittingly so the difference of disinformation propaganda there are people who also divide that out out. Propaganda is an organized effort to spread disinformation or information that isnt necessarily entirely untrue or maybe the way its talked about. Its another tactic so he focused on disorder rather than a narrative of people protesting for their rights. Different ways you can look at different events and stress certain things over others. One of the things that academics are starting to point out is that we have this conversation about disinformation or misinformation we think disinformation is something thats a bad actor or doing and misinformation is you know, my aunt whos sharing on facebook a story thats on true but does not know there are people like alice who look at the social context that people are a part of. People share information, not just because they think its true but also because it resonates with them or signals the place in a group, you know, shows they are part of some Overall Group rather than other ones. If you are looking at this information in places that are vulnerable to violence you know people are also sharing misinformation and they dont know the thing they are sharing about between kidnapped children and that information is often grounded in existing societal hatred so there is the idea that purveyors of disinformation are the malicious ones and its not exactly true. Right even misinformation can be dangerous as well. What are the tactics, jenny jenny how have the tactics changed . Im interested from your perspective. Were talking about how the information spreads but how are the tactics changed and how you take on talking about how things used to be and how they are now and have never changed and espionage is a thing that existed and that is not new but what is new is weaponization of the information you get. Its not new that even Political Campaigns are hacked. That happened in previous cycles in the u. S. And in recent history but what is new is the tactics the enemy uses when they get a hold of that information. One thing we think about it into the patient and important to have Historical Context in order to anticipate and handle it but also important not to solve yesterdays problems entirely and to think about what might come next. Thats what the conversation around the fake even though i dont know how much everyone knows about the concept but it sounds like some might be more expert in it but the idea that videos looking like something is saying that that individual did not say it might be not seen a rise in it yet its anticipating that that is what is coming next. That is how we are focused on these issues right now is thinking about what is next, how will the playbook from the 4p changed and made new in the next cycle. You all talk about something that is the goal of disinformation. Is it always the same, nina . Is always to change hearts and minds or force a segment to do what you want them to do or sometimes is it more insidious than that . Is the goal from estonia to today of disinformation the same . I think what is interesting about what were seen from the kremlin is that its not to change hearts and minds but thats how i would draw the line between propaganda and disinformation. Propaganda is agitating on behalf of a certain cause whether the government or some sort of Political Movement et cetera. Disinformation particularly russian disinformation is a need to create as much chaos and disorder as possible. That is a theme that goes from estonia right through to georgia, poland, czech republic, ukraine certainly, especially in ukraine. In fact, its trying to inspire a sense of distrust in the democratic system so that people dont go out and invest in that buddy new democracy but certainly since 2016 i think were seen more distressed building in our democratic system as well whether thats in the media or in our election in the structure or whether thats in campaigns and political structures themselves. In that regard the Disinformation Campaign that we thought in 2016 that continues today, although we cant tell if it changed a single vote, has been successful in that regard. To that point, is there a pattern you think if there was a pattern people would be wiser to it already. Is there a pattern to Disinformation Campaigns . Is the russian disinformation distinct from the Disinformation Campaign put out by iran or what happened in ukraine and is that different from what happened essentially in the United States and is there a Common Element that you find . In these things. Yet, the Common Element and this is what makes it so difficult to counter is the fissures in our societies whether economic or racial or political especially Political Polarization those are the things that all of these campaigns weapon eyes to their advantage and that means that its not as simple as just plain wacky patrol. While i dont know about th that. We could ask for faith book notes. Is not just a simple as deleting accounts but it takes Good Governance and invest in from our politicians and Civil Servants and folks like you. Thats interesting. Who are the worst offenders, jessica . I want to add that were agree about expectation about the deep issues that will be variable across countries and there has been research that has found some patterns. There are more internal Disinformation Campaign than extra ones where we have a nationstate for example, acting against something you might see internal people seeking political power or acting for some personal gain within their own country. Yeah, and also people doing it to make money. You add money spreading out stories about that 2016 that happening as well and other research out of Oxford Institute they have found you see this Information Campaign outside both and it gets tricky when you define a Disinformation Campaign as the government controls the media but there have been some efforts to look for patterns like that across countries. It would have to be the worst offender of it of a Foreign Government trying to influence outside of its borders, i guess, would have to be. Who would be the worst offender . Him down russia . Yeah, absolutely. Also, any actor that is attempting to use create a situation where violence is likely to further their Political Goals they would be the worst offenders generally across everywhere in the world. What is it about russia . A lot of times i get a question about why is what russia did in 2016 any different then this type of things the United States does all around the world . Im talking about over operations and not talking about what our intelligence agencies do and the answer that i give is very much grounded in my background having worked as a National Democratic institute in supporting prodemocracy after around the world. Whenever we did rightparenthesis they were out in the open. Anyone can come. Anybody from any Political Party could come and sign up to learn how to run a Petition Campaign or learn how to run a Political Campaign. What russia did in 2016 was much more Surreptitious Campaign but did not get anyones consents. We did not know we were being messaged to buy the russian government and that is what i find so objectionable about that, also illegal, clearly. This is not something anybody bought into. And, we are seeing other nationstates mimicking the russian state, you both mentioned iran and we saw saudi accounts in china is doing this within its own borders and reset does it to his own people all the time but its that lack of openness that goes against our very democratic being that i find to make russia most objectionable in this case. Here are when there is good news. We now know the playbook and method and now its all about education and not to move into the territory of the next panel but solution focused and being able to educate the public about what the operations look like. Dhs put out a great info graphic a couple weeks ago about the war on pineapple and essentially took an issue that is divisive but not political which is whether or not pineapple along on pizza. Im anti pineapple on pizza, personally. This will get real because im very pro pineapple. [laughter] they took this topic it went to five easy steps to using this understandable info graphic to show what the adversaries are doing with the topic to pauls point that is divisive. We have something we disagree on so how do they take the think we disagree on and drive a wedge from one of the methods they use. Im encouraged because i see our government doing things and Civil Society organizations and doing things to educate the public around that and the awareness that is through the roof and we fixed it and we can move on but it is encouraging to see progress has been made. It sounds like there havent been effective defensive against disinformation maybe not very many examples historically but have you seen effective defenses against disinformation . Are there any other than where we are in this moment . Not to be a broken record but the biggest defense is educating the people of how to discern what theyre reading, understanding the techniques and been able to filter it better. Its also about weve been talking about disinformation versus misinformation and how do you define different terms and if we can get on a similar page about what is happening that might be the thing but people are working hard at it. Absolutely. I would agree that education is important and i call it a citizen space solution, not just looking at children when we talk about education but voting age people and helping them navigate the flow of Information Online but something that does give me pause from what ive seen recently in ukraine during their president ial election is that bad actors are now adapting their tactics to the kind of obstacles that some of the social media problems have put up but also post russia 2016. Im talking this year 2019 so rather than being stopped by the wall put up they are burrowing under or going around in different sorts of ways. Im interested in that. What are is there a way to describe to us how are they burrowing and learning and what do they take from the russian playbook that they have now grown or built upon . There was a lot of discussion about political advertisements in the 2016 election and facebook has now put a lot of transparency measures in place so you can search those outside actors and foreign actors if they helpful tool for research and journalists. Anticipating this russia according to the Ukrainian SecurityService Based on activity i saw when i was getting bad and looking through all that information in ukrainian and russian when i was in ukraine during the 2019 president ial election russia is trying to rent peoples facebook account in order to use them as adding mules and offering them about 100 a month or so which in ukrainian terms is a third of an average ukrainian salary in order to use their accounts to get around those ad restrictions. Security Service Found this out, alerted facebook and i dont think that will necessarily stop russia and its against their terms of service certainly but this is something that worries me. Those who dont have Strong Political press excesses and want to get extra cash or someone in a third world country will be happy to rent out that facebook account. Its like a hacker for hire yeah, thats a scary thing and a lot of manipulation going on in groups. Its moving up in the facebook hierarchy in terms of what people are seen so folks are being told or made a belated to share more content that they are seen in secret and close facebook groups and its harder for researchers like me