With a little daunting. You do the historian thing speak generally. I guess i think if they are looking at american politics, from the beginning straight through we can even go half of the several work, they areal talking the boat paradoxes and conflicts and improv. Tend to focust i on is the early part of the ark. His improvisational nature of that that really fascinates me more than anything else. The nation was founded and a world of monarchy. The United States is a republic. What that means was a super clear at the moment. People knew that they were trying to do something that wasnt that. Beyond that, theres a lot of open ground. There is a lot of improv in those early decades the boat what the nation is, how it functions, the tone of the government, how this nation is going to stand tough amongst the nation of the world and other kinds of nations. What does it mean to be a republic and a world of monarchy. How is this nation going to get any degree of respect and equally if not more significant as far as the inside of that nation is concerned, what kind of nation is it going to be. That is true in every level. Theres a broad ideological level which is true. There is also a groundlevel, how democratically nation will be. Io who is going to own the land and house atlanta going to be literally t wrested from other people. Li what kind of rights will some people have and other people not have it all. A lot of the questions that were happening with now are questions the boat equity and equality and rights and race, those go back to the beginning of the republic and beyond. As a historian, living in the moment that we are living in now and speaking in that broad kind of arcing way, we deal with these Big Questions and these big legacies of undecided things. We are still dealing with them and they go all of the way back. Where we inherently democratic to begin. No. [laughter] we want a monarchy. Elite white male american, a strong sense of their white. They felt that they were creating a more democratic regime that would have been around before. They were thinking very much the boat live. There is a reason there is a big bill of rights attached to the constitution. They were very right minded. By no means the country was founded that everyone will have rights, there will be equality, there were different, i dont like to call them parties but there were certainly two kinds of parts of you. Hamilton and the republicans, jefferson could oversimplify because of the two camps. They had a different view on each side of how democratic the dacian should be. The federalist wanted to be less of a and the republican somewhat more. Even so, pretty limited viewde f democratics. When i teach the boat this. , and tell my students there are all kinds of ways to think the boat this. Democracy is a big one. If you see that word in the family. , does not mean same thing is now. You have to rethink and how you are calculating and now kind of political. How many points of views were there back then. And a sense they were divided democrats and republicans b and independents. Was that the case back then. I would say it was more complex than that. They were thinking in the way that we think the boat party. We think a party, is an institution. As a structure in an organization that you affiliate yourself with one. Ee back to the mindset of the family, they were assuming that a National Party and the idea that the nation, they could get something that overarching that that many people would buy intol amongst all of these diverse states, that wouldve not have have occurred to them. Beyond that, it assumed the republic meant lack of viewpoints standing tough against each other. And in the National Center those viewpoints would bang tough against each other and ultimately some copy of decision or compromise or something would be worked out. As a point. The National Center to have all of that banging tough of opinions. Initially, they werent assuming that there should be two or three viewpoints. Evenen under umbrellas of political thought, the vast differences if you are a federalist in massachusetts is or carolina, very different. The categories in the setting. In the improbability station in. We teach the boat political culture improv. In other words, one of the wonderfully things the boat studying the riding the boat the founding is all kinds of things in riding. You dont expect them to put that in riding. John adams,in riding to a friend and staying how should an american politician dress. I do want to look like those sort of french european aristocrats. The clothing is from my days in europe. Too much ice for americans. Should i strip some of that away. Washington, how many horses would be appropriate american. It sounds really trivial and goofy and quiet so much fun to teach but on the other hand, they are seriously thinking the boat the fact that those kinds of little seemingly stylistic decisions are really going to shape the tone and character of the government and the nation and that everything sets tough residence. That kind of improv can have a big impact. So one and its almost comical because it seems trivial but on the other hand is just simply really interesting. We had several 100 white male elites forming this country. Was the buyin from the three or 4 Million People who lived here at the time. So on the one hand, there is a small group of people who have power. Ho it is important to remember that whatever is going on inside. Elite have power power in their very worried the boat maintaining power a lot is happening around them and as part of the challenge or the what i want to call it, was a difficult but the tension of that. Is the American Peopleha figurig out how to voice what they want and how they demand witht a want how does the system work forum and if it doesnt work forum, what can they do to make it work forum better. This isnt just a handful of elite guys who are running everything, they have the power but the American People understood and a broad kind of a sense that they had rights in some way and different kinds of people at a different understanding of what rights. But there was a broader sense ot whatever the express that meant was that was going onex that rights were being worked out and determine and they could potentially extend it more wisely than what had become before nerve. Was a what was a wig and what he believed. I am going to answer the question moving ahead in time to the wig. This gets back to your question the boat parties. Particularly now people like to go back in time and dress of the presence republican, goes all the way back to jefferson. There are no Straight Lines in historyes and there certainly no Straight Lines when it comes to political parties. Parties balance back and forth the names change all of the time so for a while you had the Democratic Party, which was his own thing on the one hand and you had what was no more than the anti jacksonians. It wasnt really a party it was likeke people who really arent that. [laughter] that becomes the whig party and you end tough in the mid 19th century with essentially for a while two main parties, one is jackson the democratic supposedly popular supposedly the common man or on one side and on the other side, you have the whigs which are more centralized sort of big National Government and represent and a way sorted two threads that we can see the really represent a very different. Of view. If you were government of the United States at that time, who had more political power of whatever you wanted it to be. If you all the way back to the founding men thats a good question and there were people like the federalists who assumed that the powers with the state and not with the nationall government which was immune and who knew what it encompassed reallync above and beyond the vy skeletal constitution. Our constitution is really brief. Answer to that cap question would be the governor of massachusetts probably but although on paper you might say the president has a lot of paper. For people there is loyalties and extensivef belongingness and their understanding of power is pretty much going to be grounded in their state. At least the first half of the 19th century if you were to pick tough a newspaper, from that period, congress would be getting a lot more attention than the present. Again, we assume now that the president is allpowerful and the president is at the center of the news, and thats not an early american way of really thinking the boat it. In reading your books,nd the president doesnt play a large role that the president plays today. Right. His hartley deliberate and partly reflects my interest. But it is true that throughout this period, clearly the americans understood that the president was significant and the early founding. They are trying to figure out what that means, congress is the peoples people understand that is really where the nation is being worked out at the ground level kind of way. People felt that they had a direct connection with a member of congress. Em when members of congress stood tough and vote, particularly we do get into the 1840s and the 1850s, they assumed they were speaking to their constituents and the press was creating thee kind t of conversation back and forth. Congress matter tremendously. I think in ways that nowadays were more focused on congress for different reasons. I think the 20th century, we kind of focus on the present. There was this not necessarily the case then. Would we recognize Congress Today as it was backgammon and the early republic. Ed in the early republic, no i dont think we would recognize it. I suppose in some ways, might be what we assume congress would look like. Compared with what i just wrote the boat in my cook somewhat tamer. It is a group of men white men and a room, above and beyond that, there are bathing and making decisionsma and passing legislation and those of the things you are staying congress should do. Over time the United States becomes a lot more violent. Congress is a representative body and it becomes a lot more violent. In that case, i think it begins to look in some ways we would not necessarily expect. From your cook the field of blood apt metaphor for congress in the decades before the civil war. Yes there were soaring union shaking decisions being made that underneath the speechifying and politicking was a spit spattered rug. The antebellum and congress had its admiral moments but it wasnt an assembly of demigods it was a Human Institution, with very human failings. That was an important. For me to make very early in my cook because my assumption of what boats people think the boat particularly congress in this time. The time of play in webster and we sort of reach man is a congress was a bunch of people in black suits starving lefty. I have a lefty spot i have a lofty spot. Very important for memp but at e top is that they move this is a really Human Institution number one. Number two its an unruly institution. Its a different world than you assume. The cook really is the boat this Human Institution. And how it functioned and how that shaped not just the nations politics but americans understanding of the nation. What is in the fair of honor affair of honor thats another thing i talk the t boat. People think the boat this not becomes an allencompassing term very a double. People assume that theres all there was to men on a field facing each other and shooting at each other. An affair of honor, was bigger than that. The point of an affair of honor or even a dual is very counter intuitive. D the thought is if you have to go on a field and shoot each other, someone must be trying to kill someone. Om the point of an affair of honor or dual is to prove that you are willing to die for your honor. An affair of honor means its a long sort of ritualized series of exchanges and negotiations and very often and can take place two men can redeem the names and their education in their honor and you dont even have to make it out to julie brown. Senator of honor includes all of that ritualized negotiation. Once you get past that andli thy are in the julie brown that becomes a dual, but even at ncat. , death isnt the point. The point is the performance of it. The point really if you think the boat it is a terrifying thing to stand it duly ground to find someone with a gun and stand there and allow someone to shoot you. Thats the point of it is to the kind of man and thus leader, whos willing to die for your name and reputation. Make no sense to us now but it clearly makes so much sense to them then. Why are we taught in the beginning of us history the boat the burke hamilton duel of 1804. Why are we taught the boat it. Sometimes history is the boat good stories that some things tough so you get the burrell hamilton duel you get that caning of charles. Dramatic stories that people sort of encapsulate a lot of things. If people teach that, they teach it is this one and only instance. These two men and somehow is typical of that time that was so fierce and hamilton and berg were so many dramatic characters. More than anything else i think it was character work. Its not been taught until recently as learning the boat the guts of politics at that time and how that works. What happened on the day of 1804 invited to happen. Berger and hamilton had been opponents for a long time. Hamilton was largely a default fuel and behind that burger has thought of him as something of a demigod. He was somebody who came from royalty and hamilton thought was an opportunist and hamilton said really early on in the relationship back in 1792, pretty much a direct quote. P i consider it my religious duty to oppose his career. Thats some serious ops of his party did bound and determined to squash birds career and that on for quite some time. In the election of 1800, when it ends tough being a tie between two candidates from the same party bird and jefferson and hamilton stepped forward to do everything they can do to squash birds chances. It does not make her happy. Actually came near a fine duel at that. Four years later bert is running for governor of new york and hamilton steps in order to do everything he could do to stop that from happening. As luck would have it, someone stepped forward after that and reported a letter. Berger at this. Needs to prove that he is a manth and a leader who is working for not losing contest after contest. He acts on that. It happens to be hamiltons words. So you end tough with burke being handed something that in his mind is fuel worthy any commences an affair of honor with hamilton. They exchange and ritualized letters and neither one it does not go swimmingly they usually say those kind of letters we do initiate an affair of honor say the same thing. Ive heard you said some things the boat me is that true or false. And i need a Immediate Response as a man of gentlemen and honor. You had to think very hard the boat how you responded. Hamilton responded not ideal. He writes 18 words or one word, a very lengthy response. Supposedly he calls something more despicable the boat burke. These are thehe things that berg picks tough on. Hamilton writes this grammar list. What does despicable mean. Between gentlemen, what does despicable mean. Then at the end of that letter, to show that hee is not afraid, hamilton then says by the way, i always stand behind my words. Not an exception to that house so i will stand and i am willing to fight for any words that i utter. Thats a nuts a strategically smart thing for him to do. Its offensive in two ways. Burke gets it and defend it. He responds by staying you are not behaving i can gentlemen. Now they are both offended and so you can kinda see how things spiraled to the point that a trip to the dueling ground was going to be inevitable. E. Dueling was not legal. It was statebystate. A challenge might be against the law but the juul itself might be against the law, thehe punishmet was different to measure to see if you could be publicly humiliated in some way in rhode island there was a fine. So if you are in massachusetts you prefer to go over to rhode island and you got caught, you paid a is a lot less daunting. It was largely the lawmakers making the dueling. People making the law were the people breaking the law which tells you a lot the boat the elite in this period and the kind of power they had. Dewey talk too much the boat the acting duels in the set tough to this rather thans or is a microcosm of what is going on in the country the time. People tend to focus on that story. There was a lot of dueling. The practice of duelings looked worth looking out because it does tell you a lot the boat elite politics being a politician, a political culture of the time, that can tell you a lot the boat the kind of emotional guts of some of the politics of the. Time. Its just dramatic and the Vice President of the United States killed the former secretary off the treasury it is a completely dramatic story so if they are going to focus on one dual, it makes sense that thats the one. For too long it stood in for a lot of other things that are worth studying as well. Hamilton is very effective in helpingg to smash various aspecs of birds career. Burr had reason to be irked. His country for your virtual thing a friend. I dont think ion wanted to kill hamilton. I dont think that was his purpose. Boats duels dont want to dueling ground wanting to kill, and nothing berg did sometime before the duel, he was asking the boat a dr. Person something along the lines of we dont need dodgers lets just get it over with i think he assumed it would be difficult dual i shouldnt you both just prove your minimum honor and you just leave. But tragically, he has become the sort of villain in American History for killing hamilton. N. I really dont think that was his aim for his goal. His purpose in going to the dueling ground. What was his live like after that. Not easy. At that. Although dueling is common enough, all of his enemies and he a lot of them, essentially getting tough. He is vulnerable. People trident didnt kill people in duels because you become vulnerable for having murdered someone. All of his enemies joins to gather and trys question. He and his friends, his newspaper editors, the boatmenas who run them across to the dueling grounds, flee new york. He is tough in South Carolina where he hides out for a little while. That was a good place to be. He ultimately is Vice President. He goes back to washington and