[background sounds] good evening ladies and gentlemen. My name is jasmine. It is an honor for me to what commute to our if it this evening. In celebration of constitution day, thank you for joining us for a debate on did american have a christian pounding. It is my pleasure to introduce the moderator for this evening his debate. Is the 24th Brandeis School of law at the university of law. Prior to coming to brandeis, Dean Crawford served as a professor of environmental law at the University Law school in new orleans louisiana. He was a tender member of the faculty at Georgia StateUniversity College of law in atlanta. Center for comparative study for metropolitan growth which has developed new models for field based education and compared environmental landuse laws. Dean crawford has a law degree from Harvard Law School and degrees in modern history from cambridge and columbia universities. It was admitted to practice law in state of new york. Please join me in welcoming tonight his moderator, Dean Crawford. Cut back dean thank you very much it is a real pleasure to be back here for the second year in a row at the Mcconnell Center and i am convinced that the reason i was asked back is then that if i have one skill it is in being a very strict timekeeper. Mac so this evening i am going to hold close to the time limit that i have been instructed to give them. And before introducing them, just let me run over that format very quickly. Each of the speakers will have 15 minutes for their opening statements. When they have two minutes left i will put up two minutes then one and then i will utter the words stop and i will say please afterwards. [laughter] but i will thanks that you both respect that so that we have time for a robust discussion. And then i will not abuse the moderators of privilege and asked the question of each of them as a way to try and and sensitize the discussion for that they will have five minutes each and then we will start to take questions from the audience and i will repeat this later but i will make this clean now. We all know that experience of being in an audiences for the audience member raises and says a statement and i would encourage you to thanks the speakers questions so we can hear what they have to say. And then take back home, are points to discuss. Then we will have audience discussion. Let me quickly introduce both of them in the order, and more david hall, who is immediately or on the far to my right. He will speak first, and professor hall is the professor of politics of George Fox University in newburgh, oregon. Is the author and editor of over a dozen books. He is the phd from the university of virginia and government where he wrote on one of the founders and i just learn not only the Supreme Court justice, james wilson. He is also the author of the forthcoming book which is coming out in october. You show what it looks like and more. He did in america have christian founding coming out from dozen books. He asked me to emphasize that it is a book intended for general readership. Its not unlike his other work directed towards academic audiences. So it should be accessible for all of us. I self included. To my immediate right, is andrew seidel, andrew is the constitutional attorney and director of Strategic Response of foundation at the im getting this wrong andrew at the freedom from religion foundation. He has from a school close to my heart. I taught for eight years Tulane University annoy our orleans, he was a magnet, from tulane and also as an element from my hometown university. The university of denver. He is the author and i only have a copy because the book was published in may, the author of the founding myth [laughter] which he pointed out to me and i took no, a blurb from two prominent law professors. As i said, this came out of me 2019. Once again im going to hold them strictly as i can to the time and i would tell you to one and then stop please. And so that went out further ado and more, please begin. [applause] and more. Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting us to participate here it is an honor to be here. So there are two common answers that are often given to did america have a christian founding. On the one hand, they say of course it did but not a legitimate of course all of the founders were godly men and they were trying to create a christian nation. In these others often times lack academic and credentials, they sometimes misused rotations and sometimes use quotations they cannot be verified. And sometimes at the worst they make up stories. Sometimes of the great account of George Washington. Its just made up. This its not the sort of position i am depending tonight and i want to make sure thats clear. On the other hand, this is actually of great concern to me. It is very common for academics and for popular scholars to answer in the opposite direction. They know, no it did not. It did not have a christian founding. Most of them for bs and they created a godless constitution and the desire to strictly separate church and state. I believe these sorts of associates are very simply false. Ill begin to show that some in my talk tonight and i go in to greater detail in my book. So what i want to do, is content that if we have to get into the question. Did america have a christian founding we say yes or no. That yes is definitely the best answer but we need to be careful in defining our terms. And so i want to explore for a little bit what we mean by a christian founding. How would we noted we saw it on. If i had more time, i would possible founding to the early colonies to the war for independence and Constitutional Commission but i am simply going to stipulate that we are talking about will usually cite in the founding era. Seventy to 65 to 7091 or so the war for american independence in the creation of a Constitutional Order. So with that said, lets begin to explore what do we mean by a christian founding. One possibility would be that americans in the era identify themselves as christian. If that is what we mean then its indisputably we had a christian founding. Of americans and european dissent, almost a hundred percent one of said i am a christian. In fact 98 percent would have identified themselves as protestant 2 percent and Roman Catholic and about 2000 jews in four american cities. Debate over. Right. No. These can be very and pious christians, christians influenced by so im going to lay that aside for now. The second possible mean is they were all orthodox christians. Let me say in a devoted an entire chapter this my book. Theres absolutely no good reason to believe that most forum any american founders it is so the case that jefferson and adam and franklin were not orthodox christian. But thats not the same thing as being a ds. Lisette said term used by including mr. Seidel in his book. I think there are actually great reason to believe that many of them were christians off of in many cases we lack reference we have to be careful about making that sort of claim. I think actually the organizer of this debate had it right. Scholars have spent years and have killed many trees trying to identify both of the founders were influenced by a lockean liberalism or classical republicanism or the Scottish School of moral sense. Its a look at influence in what was in major influences upon americans founders and i think you can make an exit case that christianity was a very important influence, the most important one. Christianity proper within the political affliction. Let me jump to what might be a hard case for me. The work for american independence. Because on the surface, this seems to be a profoundly unchristian act right. Im sure yall know romans 113 wanted to and we can keep going i will just read the beginning. Let every soul be subject to the governing authority for there is no authority except from god. And the authorities that exist are appointed by god. One might argue the case that by rebelling against the duly constituted authority are engaged in a profoundly unchristian act. On the surface it does seem to be a problem however as it was the 12th century some catholic scholars began to work on this problem and as things like what would happen if the ruler became a tyrant. Rulers ceased to be the sort of burning authority in romans 13. This idea was taken by the protestant reformers. Especially john calvin and those who follow him. Conan, and so forth. They developed this robust resistance ideology. Calvin is also actually mowed the most conservatives, having the authority to resist a king becomes a tyrant but even as he is doing that. Thank know the people themselves, have this sort of authority. I would say this is the very important position that develops within the forum tradition and this is very important in the american context. Between 50 and 75 percent of americans of european descent and sara or accurately identified as calvinists. This sort of connection was noticed by the other side. The royalist peter peter oliver railed against the dissenting clergy. He took so active of a part in the rebellion. By dissenting clergy, the met presbyterian and congregational inductors and others are non clergy. King george himself referred to the wharf for independence was presbyterian rebellion. The more normative plan, the most important document come out of the Continental Congress, the declaration of independence rest in the party went on a theological. We all these truths to be selfevident that all men are created equal. That they are done by the creator. Among which are live liberty and the pursuit of happy is. You may object. We know that Thomas Jefferson its not an orthodox christian. He wouldnt be absolutely correct that you need to understand there is actually committee of five and this committee changed jefferson strapped in ways that he did not like. More portly that went into the entire cottonelle congress that changed it again. This document has authority only because it comes from this congress. Most members of congress, were signing off on this, by nature his god creator, they were thinking about the god of creator isaac and jacob. Let me press on again to another hard case. About the constitution. Is this a godless document. If you are familiar with the state constitutions in the era, its definitely different. Many constitutions admit multiple to god specifically. The constitution is basically silent on this. Sully referenced it and didnt even come close to being a reference and god is the dateline in the year of our lord in 1787, and yet some constitutional scholars say we shouldnt even consider this. To be part of the constitution proper. There are some notions that american is the nation populated by christian, the president and the pocket veto occurs ten days after the Congress Passes a piece of legislation. There is an assumption that this would not be done on sunday. The Constitutional Convention meant every day of the week except for sunday. The congress in 1779 met once on a sunday. Generally people do not do legislative business on the sabbath. So what sort of argument i have here. Okay god its not there. We even have a man on the office which lies in the face of the 1113 state in 1787. Article six as were not going to have religious and federal office. What is going on. I want to suggest that we cannot determine both of america is the godless or public constitution simply by counting references to the deity. We have to look a little bit deeper. I want to begin with a sort of literature that the american founders were referencing. You recall that i said they were protestants. People of the book. If the book was important to them, you expect to see references to the bible everywhere. And the fact thats what you find. Very fine political scientist did a wonderful analysis of a whole bunch of text. An article that eventually published in americans of Political Science review, we need found was in looking simply at the political literature, and looking at citations, within the political literature, that roughly in the founding era, were talking about 34 of all citations in the bible alone. Compared to 22 percent to all in the thinkers combined. Everyone combined. 22 percent, the bible alone 34 percent. Its very important to note that was the undercount the references to the bible. He excludes political sermons that dont also have references and secular thinkers and theres another reason that i will get to. Let me jump to a more substantive argument. Then find hall, how. How were the founders influenced by christian ideas. All. To just for main things and we can perhaps afford them a little bit later. The founders believed that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god that humans were sinful and even christians continue to struggle with the old man. This led them to develop a Constitutional Order xrays by federalism and separation of power and checks and balances. The rule of law and they were very suspicious. Concentrated powers. Some enlightenment in my time of congress were very interested in centralized government. With no checks and balances. Run by experts. The kind only makes sense for reasons to be your guide. To me jump to another one. The founders were absolutely convinced that there were world standards. Universal world standards that apply to all people in all times, in all places and human laws, lets be based. Based upon these moral standards if you meet somebody like james wilson in early supreme justice, he sounds like there are two types of law. The divine is human. Divine law are for. Natural celestial and physical and human laws must be based on moral laws. And so forth. Supreme court judges prior to marshall, is on record staying the Supreme Court and strike down an active legislature of the violate a natural law which is really quite an extraordinary claim if you think about it. Thirdly, the christian ideas informed the founders and understanding of liberty. For them liberty was a freedom to do whatever is right. They distinguish between liberty and live. When founders worked, liberty must never be used within the bounds of right and duty or in another common formulation, law that went out liberty is an liberty that went out law. Fourth and i think this is critical the founders were convinced that humans were created in the modern days. The image of god. James wilson again if i may, this is the u. S. Supreme court opinion. He writes that man beautifully and wonderfully made, his workmanship of his all perfect creator. Some of you recognize that is coming from psalm 139. He doesnt put in reference psalm 139. He is clearly referencing the psalmist here. He goes on in his lecture and says this and this is going. Live with a consistency and beautiful and a deviating human live, from its commencement to its close is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of the law that begins with the infinite first able to stir in the womb by the law live is protected not only from the immediate discretion but from every degree of actual violence in some cases every degree of danger. So there is a number other things i can. To but i want to pay respect with the religious liberty in charge state. This is where the rubber hits the road. Im running out of room or im running out of time. Church state relations will be later. George mason and a drop to a became a very important document in article 16 of the virginia declaration of rights. He said that he drafted that as religion or the duty which po to our divine and a mythic creator in the manner of discharging eczema can be governed only by reason of conviction and not force and violence. Therefore the homage enjoy in full toleration and exercise of religion. Know how the argument is grounded in a theological proposition. The duty which po towards a divine and assistant creator. This is the good draft but James Madison was not satisfied and he did not like this were toleration. He devotes an amendment and article 16 was amended to make it clear that we have a natural right to freely exercise our faith. And with that, i think almost stop. A minute to spare. Andrew. Host all just a tooth and one then stop. Andrew we the people, those words are poetic but so much more. Our godless constitution was indeed revolutionary. It was the first not mentioned a deed or jesus, the first of been religious test for Public Office in the federal constitution experiments, the secular government was so successful that all of the states followed suit. This establishing churches and banning heading churches offer taxpayer funds. All through the 1830s. Secular government works. There is no such thing as the freedom of religion that went out a government that is free from religion. America invented the separation of state and church. The american ritual. The idea was warm when the enlightenment but it was first implemented in the american experiment. I am proud of this fact. I wish my and i wish every american were proud of this american invention. I suddenly wished they were far fewer seeking to undermine it with ideas that we are christian nation. America did not have a christian founding. Its a good thing we did it. The principles that are essential to christianity that can be found in the bible are fundamentally opposed to the principles on which this nation was built. Ill get into that in a moment but first list look in the opponent had to prove this claim. First he would have to name is christian principles that influence the valley and they must be christian. These ideas and ideals that are unique to his religion. It cant just be religion claiming credit for ideas that are out there. Francis the golden rule. A lot of people think of this is the christian principle but the greeks had it hundreds of years before christianity asked in the chinese. And the millennium. Before christianity. Golden rule is in a christian principle is the human as well. John adams, the great principle of nature and nations. So why can we find christian principles. We find them in the bible. We can find them and the Ten Commandments and jesus his words in the christian bible and pauls letters. In two corinthians. [laughter] that is where we find christian principles. My head was like mention this christian tradition of political reflection. In any k