Telling author naomi klein. Her books on economics and Public Policy include the shock doctrine, and the recently on fire. The burning case for Green New Deal. Thank you for joining us and in the studios in new york. But tv we are in manhattan. We are running in marketing this business. Let me begin with your book no logo, when did you learn about nike. Microsoft and starbucks and branding. It is great to be with you and to have this time. So when i was writing the logo, became out at the very beginning of 2000 so it is almost exactly 20 years old. And i when i researching, four years before that, it was a period where i was changing the corporate world. You had the first kind of fullblown lifestyle brands. An idea that we all take for granted now but these were companies that for the first time, were declaring that their Business Model was not sell products but to sell ideas, lifestyle says of belonging and that they could then extend into kind of selff closed granted cocoons. The sort of everything as long as it was printed with this logo. So nike was really the first on. To do this. They didnt ever own factories. And this was an amazing when i learned, no logo, that there was a relationship between the aggressive kind marketing it was constantly sort of trolling Youth Culture to find the most cuttingedge ideas to get ads into places they never had aner made it through before like schools and to co brand with every like Music Festivals and so on. There was an inverse relationshipse between that aggressive marketing and the kind of good jobs they were offering in the economy. Because the way these companies are bringing up money to spend this much more kind of aggressive Lifestyle Marketing was by divesting from their factories. From the ideas that they should producers atey all. So nike paved the way in the says never on their factories the first place. They made their Running Shoes through web of contractors and subcontractors who they painted against one another so who could provide their shoes for the lowest price this was such a profitable businessuc model, and all of the competitors started tilting their factories and never reopening n it. That was the key thing. They never reopen the factories. They often talked about factories moving from north america to mexico orut china or vietnam and in fact it wasnt just that they were moving locations they were never owning the factories and they didnt see themselves as producers. I think its intimately related to the india serialization in the precariousness of work. It was sort take it for granted today. As you. Out nike in particular getting a lot of criticism of your customers. At the time, because it was sort of new and this was, it was still in america that remembered the kind of manufacturing model where you understood that the product you know buying the car you know buying, you know where it was made and he understoodho that this was economic anger for that community and that the idea that the people making the cars should have enough money to buy the cars. So it was culturally shocking for people to discover that these Companies Like nike or disney who were spending so much money putting out images of themselves that were very progressive or in the case of disneys case, very familyfriendly, they pulled back the curtain and say wait a minute, in some cases children are people just a little bit out of being children, people in their early 20s, for making these products on a really abusive conditions. So when wasas exposed, it was a scandal. Twenty years later, i thinknk people take it for granted that all the products in our live are made on conditions that are pretty dubious. Electronic factories in china that have suicide notes to catch people when they commit suicide because theyre so desperate on the job. I think its one of the things to think about. I think about what is changed is the logo, the sense of shock that i was sort of tracking. I was thinking zero my god, i cant believe these nike Running Shoes are made by a company in indonesia. Or adar sweeping out dormitories not getting paid for their overtime are having to be in bottles underneath there showing machines. All of thesehe were coming out d they were gentlemanly scandals. And movements responding to them. People seem so shocked and outraged about this. It is almost like a joke on latenight television. Publicly examples in the book, starbucks. And how a coffee shop open up and inspired by chuck starbucks was trying tota essentially run away from the starbucks brand. I think it was an example from the ten Year Anniversary edition of the loop l no logo where in the original edition, they came out in 2000, i had a fair pit of then relatively new Company Starbucks told us that the brand were they thirdplace, on our work and play together using thereally disperse of the public fear almost like a townn square. It is interesting that this was happening in the 90s if you have this very aggressive privatization of the public fear and so corporations have come so long and say well we are a pseudo town. Which is what facebook is using and doing out. A digital town square. The 90s at starbucks. And when i wrote an introduction to the tenth anniversary, they just opened up a coffee shop in seattle that was completely. He didnt see the logo anywhere which seem to be the marker of how far they had fallen and assessed in order to recapture any sense of newness the head and brand themselves. Was sort of a political spear you talk about president obama in one of the questions was did he live upe to his brand. Did he . It was early in the obama years when i wrote that, and i think there was always something a little bit nike about the obama brand. It was just big enough and hard enough to pin him down to a clear political platform. Its another interesting measure where we are now because i think if you look at the democratic primaries right now, i think there is more of an expectation and candidates have a really specific and fully formed platform. Economic platform labor policy platform and environmental policy platform. I think about the obama campaign, in 2008, which i was writing about. I was pretty vague and pretty much like im going to recapture a sense ofsm optimism and you ae not going to be ashamed of america. People are tired from eight years of bush and pro change and feeling good. As i write about that. The First Political campaign used the same tools that these Corporate Lifestyle brands have been using. To sort of pay themselves an aura of progressivism. So the question did obama live up to it. Its a complicated question and says that was never specific so its hard to say both of he lived up to it or not. There wasnt that much there but we need was promising in all though didnt specifically promise and avoid a revised, take on wall street and i think there was a huge amount of disappointment. Generally happen. People hope there was really going to be a real real reinvestment and Small Businesses and maybe more factory jobs. We are very disappointed in that. I think its part of a global phenomenon where the liberal politicians come to power with a sort of having your progressivism and change. That the economy continues c to make people feel excluded and disempowered and more precarious and more insecure. Ss estate were the kind of populism that we are seeing worldwide. Obviously also theres the specific factors relating to obama is the black president racial backlash in the United States but is also important to remember that there is a global phenomenon of these rightwing populism that we see everywhere. You can join us on twitter about tv and her guests are on tv Nate Naomi Klein and also phone calls at 2027488200. If you live in central time zones. Your teaching at the university. Howdy frame this in a classroom. In terms of your book the original book then in the ten Year Anniversary edition. Actually teaching course all these corporate south. It looks at the integration of the human and the corporation. Corporations try to act more like a few months which is the original brands were all about that. But he accorded sort of comforting face like uncle bens brent jemima for much of it racialized and talking about nostalgia about plantation live. Do we look at the racial history of branding. And then wearing but no logo and, remember this is written in the late 1990s. This then completely newel idea that a few months like everyday a few months, not celebrities need it to become their own brands in order to succeed in this newly precarious job environment. We can expect job security the way to get to head is to find your interbrand and projected onto the world. This was after we seen celebrities do this in the book i talk a lot about michael jordan. Someme brand. Now we look atia whats happenig with social media. There was a pretty notional idea 20 years ago, that the idea anybody could be on brent because anybody doesnt have the money to take out advertisements and actually do the work that projecting an image of oneself. But today, because of social media b everybody who has compur access, has a capacity to market themselves to market an idea of themselves to think about what is my brand which is very different about who am i. We arent packing and have a Wonderful Group of students and first of all we talk about how even though they have grown up with this idea, it is relatively newti idea. It was not always the case. You have been looked at if you are mad, 30 years ago, the 15 old kid, not what you want to be me grow up but what is your brand. [laughter] we try to make visible some of the things he take for granted. And then really think about what is the main to have to separate yourself from the idea of yourself. To have the distancing. And was that do to friendship and relationships and social movements is been fascinating to unpack this with them because of course they know a lot more about social media than i do. They are teaching me all the time this sort of latest phase of this or instantly connected to the fact that we are living our lives online instead of constant performance ofve our personal brand. The Tech Industry sees that data as the new oil, often repeated. So they are mining ourselves and all the intimation that we are sharing. For their Business Model that we are not getting any part of. We are not paid for the data that we arere providing for fre. So we are looking at all of these data mining, surveillance capitalism, it is interesting, and once again see how much is changed since i wrote that book. Its now. Newest book agree new deal. In terms of the original new deal, you write a lot about how that essentiallyut transforms te country in the world. I think there is inspiration to be taken in the original new deal and also very important warnings arid to you from that era because so monday people are excluded from the seat of protection on fdr his new deal. Monday africanamerican workers were excluded. Domestic workers and women, Agricultural Workers were excluded, and there was systemic determination and segregation in monday of the programs. It is also true that the United States transformed itself and its speed and scale that is comparable to the kind of speed and scale change that we need to embrace. If were going to lower emission in line with what scientists are telling us. A year ago, the panel on Climate Change, the foremost gathering of scientific experts, would advise governments on this state of climate science. Issued a report a year ago staying you need to cut global emissions in half in the mere 12 years, which is now 11 years. And they said this was a a coat with summary of the report. This would in virtually every aspect of vice that Energy TransportationAgriculture Building construction, so there arent, monday points in history we do can c say this is the time we saw that kind of field transformation. What is when youre in the Second World War we do had americans planting Victory Gardens and getting 40 percent of their profits from the spartans we saw factories transfer themselves very rapidly. Then the new deal is another area which is less topdown and which is why its useful historical precedent for us to look at. Hes dont think we want government telling everybody what they shouldyo do. I think we should worry about that kind of climate so when youre in the new deal era he saw it on rule of america electrified. More than 10 billion americans directly employed and renaissance publicly funded arts. All kinds of infrastructure schools and libraries of reservoirs. Much of American Publich infrastructure today, his legacy of this. Another part is quite relevant to even agree new deal is that fdr his conservation corps was probably the most popular of the new deal programs. Its a a reminder the new deal s not only responding to an economic crisis. It is also reporting to an ecological crisis because of the decibel crisis of d4 station. The sick more than 2 million for young people, both from cities to hundreds ofr camps in rural parts of the United States they did things like 2. 3 billion trees, the planet them. More than half of the trees are planted. That kind of skill is really important. Its also the kind of thing that we need to do all carbon out of the atmosphere in the face of the Climate Crisis. You wrote part of what makes Climate Change so very difficult for monday of us, so we live in a culture of the perpetual presence. Deliberately separates itself from the past and created us in the future, we are shaping with our actions. A lot of them in the book, trying to make visible the Economic System and the relatively new economic and social models board of the particular kind of capitalism since the reagan era which is been all about my mutations the regulations and generating individual consumers equating shopping with democracy in the goodbye. Let us produce an extremely accelerated culture which then people. To and say well its just human nature. We cant deal with a crisis like Climate Change because clearly we are just is it too selfish and is it too individualistic and think to shortterm and this requires us to have a longer timeframe and requires us to put the collective good ahead as usmething that you might just want right now to satisfy an urge. Dual so theres been a lot of written and is make this human nature argument about why he will never respond to this crisis. I find what im talking about what we need to do in the pages crisis. I find that the biggest obstacle that we areha up against its nt Climate Change denial which is definitely on the way. And so the lack of technology or an understanding of what needs to be done, it is really the sense of dume that we as human beings are incapable of doing the things that are necessary. That is why think it is important to draw these historical precedents that even if theyre not exactly the kind of thing we need to do now, they do show that there are different ways of being human and in lifespan of people, alive today, people were able to think longer term and were able to collective good ahead of their individual desires. And they are people Indigenous People in north america who teach their children to think seven generations into the future and seven generations in the past. So what im trying to do i guess as proselytized the source of nature. To human we hear a lot of it. Actually thats equating a particular relatively recent forum of deregulated consumer capitalism with thesm idea whatt means to be human. We cant change the laws of nature, they can change the system that we a few months to create ourselves. If they are threatening live on earth. In fact me to do that. Nothing is easy, just say it is possible. In mary seven years old, she went out picking yesterday. A few months are a lot. For those who dont know naomi klein,om and seven minutes tell your live story. In it inn a minute or two. I was born in canada, montreal. My parents are american. My parents were peace activists. Inhe the 1960s and my father did not want to go to vietnam. And he had to choose between jail in canada. Like monday of his peers, he chose canada. We moved to montreal. Later move back to the United States for ars few years. When i was very. Before i was five years old and they decided that they like canada ever. I sometimes say we left because of the work that we stayed for the universal public healthcare. [laughter], mother is the documentary. She worked for the National Board of canada. As the first women, she made films really for the feminist movement. Grow upor with legal parents. My father worked in the canadian Healthcare System and involved in things like midwives in bringing them into the hospitals big advocate for natural childbirth. Retired. I grew up in really radical, i have friends who really had like serious radical parents. They were homeschooled and their parents really walked the talk. I grew upd between worlds. With their values i suppose but going to regular schools in the 1980s, so i sort of felt very pulled between the cultural the 1980s which was very shiny and appealing to me and my home live where my parents weree seeing what you want to hang out with your friends at the mall. Why would you ever want to go to the mall. Maybe thats why ive wrote a book in my 20s. Like youve been patient, from florida welcome to the conversation. Rl hi. It is nice to speak with you. My main problem with the whole thing is the amount of energy that is required is impossible and the technologies to start going to be there. This is the pieinthesky pieinthesky dive boat thinking. We need to fossil fuels and there is no doubt about it. In the foreseeable future. The other thing was ju