Which was the four years before that, in the period where lot was changing and you have the first kind of old logo lifestyle brands. Well take it for granted now these were companies for the first time, were declaring their business w by was not to sell products but to sell ideas lifestyle, the sense of belonging they could extend into kind of selff enclosed branded cocoons. They could sell everything as long as it was granted with this logo. So nike was the first one to do this. They didnt ever owney the factories and the main thing that i learned when i was researching, no logo, there was a relationship between the aggressive kind of marketing that was constantly sort of trolling Youth Culture to find the most cutting edge ideas to get into places they never had before like schools to co brand with like Music Festivals and so on it was an inverse relationship between that aggressive marketing and the kind of good jobs that were offered. In the economywa and the way the economy source bring up money on this Lifestyle Marketing was divesting from their factories. From there ideas that they should be produced at all. So nike, paved the way in the sense because in around their factories in the first place. They made their Running Shoes are a web of contractors and subcontractors who they pitted against one another so could provide issues for the lowest price. This was such a profitable Business Model that all of the competitors started tilting the factories and never reopening them. That wasas the key thing, they never reopen them. We havent talked about factories moving from north america to mexico and china vietnam, but in fact it wasnt just that they were moving locations, is that they were never owning the factories. They didnt see themselves asse producers. If we related to the industrialization and the precariousness that was sort of take for granted today. Head as you. Out, i can particular getting a lot of criticism from itsit customers. At the time cobit because it was new. It. C this was still in america that remembered t the manufacturing model where you understood that there are products, your buying the car new world was made in where the economic anchor was for the community that the idea for people making cars should have enough money to buy the cars. It was culturally shocking for people to discover that these Companies Like like nike or disney were spinning so much money putting up images of themselves that were very very progressive or in cases of disneys case very familyfriendly you pull back the curtain and wait a minute, in some cases children or people justst a little bit but not beig children, people in their early 20s. They are making these products and verbally abusive conditions. With that was exposed, it was a scandal. Twenty years later, people take it for granted that almost all the products in our live are made onnd conditions that are pretty dubious. You got electronic factories in china and have suicide nets to catch people when they commit suicide because they are so desperate for the job. They is one of the toughest things to think about. They about what has changed since her logo and the sense of shock that i was attracting, i cant believe that nike are made by 18 yearolds in indonesia who are sleeping in cramped dormitories and not getting paid for their overtime or having to pretty in bottles on their sewing machines and all of these scandals. There genuinely scandals. I think people sense of shock and outrage about this, almost i can jump on latenight television. You a couple a of examples in your book, one of starbucks. The coffee shop opened up inspired by starbucks, run away from starbucks brand. Those example from the ten Year Anniversary edition of the logo. In the originale edition, they came in 2000, had a fair pit about or relatively new company, starbucks who told us that their brands meaning was that they were what they called the third place, not home not work, and our plea where people could gather. They were really using this discourse of the public fear almost like a town square. There is sort of interesting that this was happening in the 90s after you have this very aggressive cognitive private tatian of the public fear. Corporations came so long and said we were as pseudo town square. The corporate digital town square in the 90s it was starbucks you have a cup of coffee and your pseudo public space. Then when i wrote an introduction tohe the tenth anniversary. Starbucks had just openedit up a coffee shop in seattle that was completely unbranded. He didnt see logo anywhere when she knew the marker which how far they hadll fallen. Add in order to recapture in a sort of newness, they had to and bred themselves. Sort of a political spear. You talk about president obama in one ofve the questions is did he live upba to his open change brand. Diddy. Yeah, early in the obama years when i wrote that. Well, i think there was always something a little bit nicety about the obama brand in the sense that it was big enough that is hard to pin him down to a clear political platform. Its another interesting measure for we are now because there is more, if you look at the democratic primaries right now, i think there is more than an expectation that candidates have a real nice pacific and fully formed platform economic platform, policy platform and environmental pull environmental policy platform. By theme of the Obama Campaign in 2008 which ii was writing about, is preventing very much like im going too recapture a sense of optimism and you are not going to be ashamed of america. People are tired from eight years ofir bush. We want change and feeling good. Thats why wrote about that. The First Political campaign that used the same tools that these Corporate Lifestyle grants had beennd using. To sort of pay themselves in an aura of progressiven his. So the question is did obama live up to it. Its a complicated question the sense that it never was very specific. Its hard to say 20 both of he lived up to it or not. Off of he did specifically respond he was going to take on wall street. Theres a huge amount of disappointment that people had helped there would be an reinvestment and Small Businesses and maybe more factory jobs, were very disappointed byar that. This part of a global phenomenon where liberal politicians come to power with this sort of veneer of progressivism and change but the economy continues to make people feel excluded. And more insecure. That sets the stage for the kind of right wing populism that we are seeing surged worldwide. Also specific factors relating to obama being sort of the black president and a racial backlash in the United States. But its also important to remember that there is a global phenomenon of this right wing populism that we see everywhere. You join us on twitter and to be. Our book our author naomi klein, is here with us. Your teaching at westward university, how you frame this in your book your original booking or ten Year Anniversary edition. Im actually teaching class called their corporate self. Looks at the integration of the human and the corporation. Sort of corporations trying to act more like a few months. The original bad, were all about that. Today sort of a comforting safe uncle bens or edge of my math, much of it racialized and talking sort of nostalgia about plantation live and we look at the racial history branding. And then where no logo ends is remember the industry in the late 1990s, this then completely new idea that a few months like everyday a few months, not celebrities need it to become their own brand in order to succeed in this newly precarious job environment. Nobody can expect job security so the way to get ahead, is to find your interbrand and projected onto the world. This is after we seen celebrities do this in the book i talk a lot about George Michael jordan. Super brand. Then we look at whats happening with social media. Years ago, is the pretty notional idea, the idea that anybody could be done brand. Anybody doesnt have the money o to take i out ads. Today in social media everybody has theas capacity to market themselves and to market an idea ofof themselves. To think about the brand. Its very different than what might. Have a wonderful poem of students who, first of all we talk about how this, even though they have grown up with this idea, it is relatively new idea. It was not always the case you wouldve been looked at if you are mad 30 years ago to say a 15 yearold kid, but not what do you want to be monday grow up. But what is your brand. [laughter] we try to make visible some of the thingss that they make for granted. And think about what is the main to have to separate yourself from the idea of yourself. To have that distancing. And what does that to friendships and relationships and what he do to social movement. Its been fascinating to unpack this with them because of course they know a lot more about socialno media that i do so they are teaching me all the time. But then to sort of latest phase of this that we are instantly connected online and is sort of constant performance of our brand. Is that the Tech Industry sees data his new oil that is often repeated so they are mining ourselves, mining all of the information that we are sharing. Theyre doing this for their Business Model, that we are not getting any part of. We are not paid for the data that we are providing for free. So were looking at all these questions on surveillance and data mining which isti called shaun his calling it surveillance capitalism. Its interesting, once again to see how much has c changed sinci wrote that now. Now thats quite book. The newest book, agree new deal. From this question in terms of the new deal. You write a lot about how that essentially transform the country and the world. I think theres inspiration to be taken in the original new deal and also someti very importantew warnings to heat frm that era. So monday people were excluded from the protections on fdr his new deal. Monday africanamericans work and Domestic Workers and women, wereke excluded agriculturists were excluded. There was systemic demos ration and disaggregation in the new program. It is also true that the United States transformed itself at a speed and scale that is comparable to the kind of speed and skill change that we knew and that we need to embrace if were going to lower inventions in line with what scientists are telling us. They are gone, the intergovernmental mental panel on the foremost gathering on the experts advisemo governments on the state of climate science, issued a report a year ago staying that we need to cut global emissions in half in a mere 12 years which is now 11 years. And they said and this is the quote from the summary of the report, this would require unprecedented transformation and opera charlie every aspect of society, energy transportation, agriculture, buildingin construction. There arent monday points in history we do can say this is the time when we saw that kind of failed transformation. One is when youre in Second World War we do had americans planting Victory Gardens and gettingpl 40 percent of the profits and those gardens. We saw factories transform themselves very rapidly. The new deal is the another area which is less topdown. Its been useful to historical precedents for us to look at. E these dont think that we want governmentso telling everybody what they should do. I think we should worry about that kind of climate also carries this, when youre in the new deal era, you sound rural america, electrified and more than 10 million americans directly employed, renaissance publicly funded arts and all kinds of Public Infrastructure schools libraries, the reservoirs, and much of the americans Public Infrastructure today is the legacy of the new deal. Another part of it is quite relevant thinking about new Green New Deal is in fdr his conservation corps was probably the most popular of the new deal program. Its a a reminder that the new deal was not only responding to an economic crisis, was also responding to an ecological crisis because of the dustis bol and prices ofs deportation. The ccc, spent more than poor young people from cities, to hundreds of camps in rural parts of thef united stats and they would have plant 2. 3 billion trees which is more than half of the trees ever planted. That sort of skill is really ndimportant and also the kind of thing that we need to do to pull carbon out of the atmosphere in the face of the limit change. Part of what makes Climate Change so very difficult for monday of us to grasp so we live in a culture of contextual present. One that deliberately separates itself from the past and created us in the future. We are shaping with our actions. So a lot of what im doing in this book, is trying to make visible, the Economic Systems and the sort of relatively new economic and social models. Its born of the particular kind of capitalism that weve had since the reagan era. It has been all about deregulation and privatization and venerating the individual consumers and equating shopping with democracy of the good live. That is produced an extremely accelerated culture which that people. To and say was just human nature. We cant deal with a crisis like im a change. Because clearly we are just is it too selfish and to individual mistake and think to t short te. And it requires on a timeframe and the collective good ahead of something that you might just want rightt now to satisfy an individual urge. So theres been a lot written that has made this h human natue argument why we will never respond to this crisis. But i find what im talking about what we need to do in the face of this crisis whichf i obviously do a fair w pit, i fid that the biggest obstacle that we are up against its not Climate Change denial which is definitely on the way, as of the lack of technology or understanding of what needs to be done. It is truly the sense of dume that we as human beings, are incapable of doing the things that are necessary. That is why you think it is important to draw on these historical precedents that even if they are not exactly the kind of thing you need to do now, they do show that there are different ways of being a few months in the live span of people alive today, people were able to think longer term and were able to up as a collective good ahead of their individual desires and and there are people Indigenous People in north america who teach their children to w think seven generations ino the future and seven generations in the past. So im trying to do is guess problem the ties these sorts of appeals to human nature that we hear a lot of. Thats equating it particular relatively recent forum of deregulated capitalism with the idea of annies needs to be human. While we cant change the laws of nature, we actually can change the system that we a few months to create ourselves if they are threatening live on earth. In fact me to do that. I think it is easy, im staying as possible. Mary hewitt apple picking yesterday yesterday, you moved around a lot though. For those who dont know naomi klein. Spent a few minutes to tell your live story. Just a minute. [laughter] yet so i was born in canada inn montreal. My parents aremo americans. My parents are peace activists in the 1960s. My father did noto want to go to vietnam. And he had to choose between jail canada and like monday of his peers, he chose canada. He moved to montreal. Later moved back to the states and for a few years when i was very young. Before i was five yearsrs old. The decided that they liked canada better so i sometimes say that we left because of the work that we stayed for the universal public healthcare. [laughter] my mother is the documentary filmmaker now retired. She worked for the National Film board of canada. As the first womens film studio. She made some really forward feminist movements. So i grew up with politicalen parents. I father worked inn the canadian Healthcare System involved in bringing midwives into the hospitals and big advocate for Natural Childbirth the family dr. Retired now. Yes, i wouldnt say i was like group in a really radical, i have friends who really had f serious radical parents and they were homeschooled and their parents really walks the talk. Grew up between worlds with their values i suppose but going to regular schools in the 1980s. So i sort of felt very pull between culture of the 1980s which was very shiny and appealing to me and my home live where my parents were seeing what he woulddo hang out with yr friends at the mall. What is there at the mall. Would you ever want to do Something Like that. [laughter]. So maybe thats why i wrote no zone in my 20s. My cuban patient. From florida welcome to theon conversation. Hi nice to speak withea you. My main problem with the whole thing is the amount of energy that is required is it possible. In the technologies just arent going to be there. This is the pie in the sky dive boate thinking. We need the fossil fuels. Theres no doubt about it. In the foreseeable future. The other thing was to see environment that self, how do you explain the ice age. 10000 years mike let her made it through. Select cancer. Thanks for your question. So i was going to urge you to look up the work of and more jameson at stanford university, he is the professor of engineering whos got a big team and really specific research about how in fact, it is possible existing technology to get to hundred Percent Renewable Energy very rapidly for electricity, transportation afterwards, in line with what sizes are telling us n we need o do. There have been huge breakthroughs in Battery Storage and price breaks as well. Cost of Renewable Energy. I would actually disagree, i think it is possible. Like they said, im not staying it is easy, i think the barriers are much more political than they are technological. Thats precisely what the government on