Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion On Combating Extremism Terrorism 20240713

Extremism and terrorism. Analysts are expected to talk about the changing Threat Landscape, the best way to combat extremism in all forms. This is live coverage on cspan2. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] so good afternoon, everyone. We will get started. Thank you so much for coming to new america and thanks to come in for a session which is ctrlaltdel hate, a simple study approach to preventing terrorism and targeted violence. My name is melissa salykvirk and im a senior policy analyst here with new Americas International security program. For those of you new to america we are a thinking action tank that connects the research institute, technology labs, solutions that were, media have an public forum. The International Security program aims to provide evidencebased analysis of some of the toughest security challenges facing american policymakers and the public. For homegrown american terrorism United States drone wars abroad and a drones around the world. To the profound changes in warfare brought by new technology and societal changes. I like you first begin by introducing jesse morton, parallel networks cup will begin with a presentation on the new initiative before jumping into the panel portion. Jesse was whats a jihadist propagandist they known as who ran revolution muslim, nukes Database Organization active ann the 2000s and connected to a number of terrorist and cases. He connected alqaeda is ideology and transcendent for america creating englishlanguage propaganda. He do about 2011 following his arrest in casablanca event incarceration in the u. S. He is now executive director of parallel networks. And after his presentation, i will have the rest of us because joyce and i will provide an introduction for each of them. We will discuss pillar new initiative the changing Threat Landscape future of terrorism practices and the relationship between our white wing and jihadism. Well say the last 30 minutes or so for audience q a and with that i will handed over to jesse. So, good afternoon and thank you for attending todays event. We are certainly honored to be here. Id like to express a special gratitude to do america for hosting todays event, a Sinful Society approach to preventing terrorism targeted violence. Todays event import for us as it marks the release of our new counter polarization hate and Extremism Initiative called ctrlaltdel hate. Conjointly kate is a magazine that will be issued in print and online we would passing ransom copies. It is a couple of an ecosystem approach to combating extremism that weve been building out since we got started. You can see the cover of the First Addition which went online this morning but the initiative is more than emir counter narrative tool. It is part of our innovative and holistic approach to addressing this threat posed by enhancing and mutually reinforcing extremism is here in the u. S. First, a little bit on the projects back to its important to realize its not a standalone initiative. Ctrlaltdel hate is more than just a magazine. Moreover, you know mitch and i with assistance of many supporters and in particular the counter extremism project and their team of researchers have been working on advancing apprehensive program that can assist in combating the threat posed particularly now by far right wing extremism. In fact, my partnership with mitch was announced publicly on june 4, 2019 with an event here at new america and documented the nefarious legacy i built and that mitch combated by these with the nypd. As director of intelligence. Since then weve learned a great deal. After researching, networking, speaking of publishing reports and designing programs, we launched the online ecosystem will discuss here today more detail, and in which ctrlaltdel hate will now be incorporated. This project ctrlaltdel hate came about as a result of much in person effort. Since our inception we been putting together a network victims, activist, researchers, supporters and others that believe and are moderate. Think about ctrlaltdel hate started a year ago during the week of activity that made it. We needed to get moving then fast. The activity could the tree of life synagogue attacks which occurred in the midst of the obama scare and individual supremacist who try to get into a barricaded African American church and proceeded to shoot two two elderly African Americans at the supermarket in kentucky. Of course things have gotten a lot worse since then, and, but we start at the time to select a team of formers and victims of rightwing extremism that construed alongside us that was preexisted of former jihadists to help us expand into the rightwing space going forward. At the core of our network like jeff scoop of it the large neonazi university in america for decades, frank make home the American American history x was based, by seven others like brad was also you today, and people like hope, an africanamerican woman whose father was murdered by White Supremacists and she actually is in contact with the individual that murdered him and provides sort of support and empathy. These have been her interventionists over the past year, and at the same time we supported and inform one another. Ctrlaltdel hate is a byproduct of its yearlong efforts. Its the beginning of our answer, particularly in the rightwing space. So id like to talk about our unique approach to this problem. We believe formers offer an unrivaled insight and particularly when teams with an amazing collective of others from different fields and spectrum of activity. Our efforts are largely from trans display model we call the pillow network philosophy. Its one that takes it ecosystem, approach that what has typically been the standalone help lines with no outrage and little publicity in marketing or failed candidate of campaigns that cannot reach their targeted audience at her sensual ineffective because theyre not connected to a Broader Network or move it. We need instead of creating an alternative network, or movement, you might describe as one that first seeks to rival inside in scope and cohesive worldview the network that tice extremists together. Only then we believe can you map that networks impact and measured the result of intervention oriented engagement. So ctrlaltdel hate will serve as the cornerstone of these efforts. A bit more on the history and how this was established. The ctrlaltdel hate methodology was used to disseminate it will be based upon a Pilot Initiative was launched in june 2019, six months ago. When i was a jihadist recruiter and propagandist on behalf of alqaeda from 20032011, i collaborate with several premier jihadist write it and he is to develop the very first englishlanguage jihadist magazine. I designed about the lead article for the first issue which we called jihad recollections and after my nukes citybased musician threat to write before preparing the prophet muhammad, alqaeda launch their own iteration called inspire. That eventually came isis own. Over the years these magazines weaponized propaganda ways unseen before him. Mitch and i came up with the idea of taking that template back i once initiated and using it for positive purposes. We designed the calendar to product but at did jihadist in graphic design, and kind and structure, called it the socalled khilafah. Included articles that deconstruct the jihadist ideology am included the test will formers like myself and offer a positive alternate worldview that we call our dialogue of civilizations bottle equally applicable as we addressed whats perceived threats on the far right for the f no state that they categorize as western civilization. One month before the launch of ahultaqwa we inaugurated online. It took and will embedded there some of it relaunch the first issue of ahultaqwa on the First Anniversary of the caliphate and before the launch even got the characters and community and jihadist sympathizers to me that isis was about to launch a new englishlanguage magazine. That coupled with an rollout that generate publicity forced extremist recruiters to respond as we invaded their aqua chamber strip it is essentially the only calendar to product has been utilized over encryptor platforms like telegram where extremists including the recently the far right are migrating as result of efforts by mainstream social Media Company such as facebook, twitter and youtube to remove extremist content. When we first launched ahultaqwa the jihadist recruits and preachers were angry. We kept popping up in the close discussion groups because with multiple holes in the network. A method mitch knows all too well, the reports of. That led them to engage me in private discourse when we were screenshot of the reputations we provide. We then pump evidence of the entrance of the leadership and ability to respond to our arguments back into the Jihadist Network spanning them with evidence against those they hold asleep. At the same time the magazine connects to interventions. Not a standalone counter narrative product. For example, after reading ahul taqwa and coming over to threaten me on twitter, i establish good relations in supporting a prominent individual that cause quite a bit of fanfare when he returned back to the west having joint isis in syria by two innings for a absent criminal charge. Several interventions have arisen as a result of ahul taqwa embeddedness in the pro isis englishlanguage telegram network. Now each article each addition of a ahul taqwa serves as a standalone piece on website and its utilize for linking to engagement sharing social media and putting into extremist conversation threads online. We also use ahul taqwa for prevention. In 2020 will be pretty hard copies of both ahul taqwa and ctrlaltdel hate and visiting cities around the United States speaking publicly with our core teams to raise awareness and promote our Intervention Services. Natalie launched ctrlaltdel hate we can use say method for domestic extremist collectives will also discussing reciprocal radicalization. So like ahul taqwa, ctrlaltdel hate magazine becomes not a standalone candidate of product built on the if you build it they will come hypothesis, or something to use insignificant in scope and application to have an impact. Next i will elaborate a bit on the holistic nature of the project and how it fits into our ecosystem. First, ctrlaltdel hate is more than just the name of the magazine. Its something that we utilize as a clear paradigm in conducting personal and collective transformation. Based on keystrokes and playing off the popularized altright bremen, ctrlaltdel hate offers a unique framework for storytelling and transformation. The first stage control is to pause and process when confronted with extremist behavior ideology. As a holocaust survivor, Victor Franco once data between statements and response, theres a space. In that space is our power to choose our response, and in our response lies our growth and our freedom. Our approach is dedicated to imparting this realization. Ctrlaltdel hate goes to recognize that we need to look that just at the response to extremism and how we react to it which create alternate courses that address often what a legitimate grievances by nonviolent mechanism. The alt turns to delete it, the phase that also ruggedized in such a tumultuous time only a holistic society, approach the issues. Collectives can get you in the message of the magazine has an underlying methodology that can transition into a paradigm and process for individual and collective alteration. Shift hate is an example of our ecosystem. This is oneonone engagement has occurred which the authors in a First Edition of the magazine and other support staff have facility. Shift hate stands for support and help for individuals and families touched by hate. Under that umbrella we won a 24 7 helpline and aggressively and that access to it the our unrivaled access to online extremist networks. Without any marketing or broadbased support from government or social Media Companies weve already conducted nearly 100 interventions. Many with key hubs of extremist movements. For example, jeff and a young female former far rightwing propagandists are here with us today and offer a sort of case study of those that are have benefited from the parallel networks philosophy. We contacted those and offer them support as well. We have used shift to provide some of the only support services to terrorism related offenders returning to our streets after their incarceration and we utilize the case studies to conduct research and recommendations on how to address their concerns in the paper released last year when terrorists come home again with the support of counter extremism project. So the final component of the ecosystem is safety. Society against violent fixed es of any. If ctrlaltdel hate offers a different approach than safe say is our assetbased approach that seeks to build up that network i was referencing that can transform essentially into a movement. Extremist dont offer a message. That offer a comment worldview in counterculture, a community built on axioms and in particular they develop aqua jams were opposition is drowned out. Extremist recruiters think multidimensional and remain fluid. They are able to adjust almost instantaneously. Its an effort to match and reverseengineer the extremist method our team knows all too personally. It utilizes influences and the color shape shifters and concentrates on formality that payola number, that network built on principle of hate that come together synergistically and offer a complete worldview an alternative to the extremist ecochamber. Though the palin Network Ecosystem methodology, you can see on this slide the different components. First, serves as a core hub of our ecosystem regenerates safe space free of hate, host overactivity. Each entity control alt delete hate shift hate and safe hate is hosted there. Taken together the system permits extremism energies to be transition in a manner that creates opportunities for individuals and groups to experience the same meaning and evidence and sense of belonging extremist offer. Second is a research. They understand today that evidence based initiatives with measurable outcomes must precede implementation period we learn by doing and then measure outcomes. Extremism is fluid. The lack assist with top ten social sites often means the limitation of data driven interventions that are no longer appropriate in a climate that is always shifted. We first got the growth of parallel network, then measure engagement effectively only once the network coalesces and can be juxtaposed and measured against the contraction or expansion of the extremist networks we seek to alter. Partnerships, the third, consultancy is key. Theres too much competition and not enough collaboration in the pde cvb space. Victims of extremism and shape shifters for example, all do the own thing independently but the engagement with activity within the light of upon light ecosysm allows the individual efforts to magnify. It becomes less of the individual, more about the movement. Think of the charismatic preachers operate and extremist brand but still can become individual icons, representatives that embody the mission of the respected causes and organizations. Ctrlaltdel hate magazine will help us build out an alternative and positive messaging. That messaging will be to broader marketing in raising Public Awareness about the ctrlaltdel hate Intervention Services and will expand partnerships that influencers and continues to provide a key of networking to expand the movement. All of these components the off of and into each other. From a social Service Perspective they are designed to approach the issue of violent extremism as the Public Health phenomenon. To demarcate each component of the brand so it can fulfill engagement at levels of prevention, education, harm reduction, intervention, counter messaging, Restorative Justice and rehabilitation, the whole social science or social service spectrum. Finally then, going forward, now we have to advance and expand the parallel networks. Weve only been up and running just publicly like upon light ecosystem for six months. Well expanded within each of the ecosystems essential components. We will be building more research, we only have heavily embedded and oncotic with networks such as at the fodder, proud boys where ctrlaltdel hate will be disseminated. Weve already contacted several of hubs of those committees to do so. Our Grassroots Efforts have established sufficient sizes. We were released a report on the project and pursue other initiatives as well. We will be looking to form more partnerships between the networking with the peace Building Community and albert have put together an Impressive Team that will organize the center for the study of trauma in her radicalization that we have collaborated with ideas beyond borders to translate the ahul taqwa magazine into arabic and to expand influence into the most majority rule. We will be taken back isis newsletter utilizing the same approach as ahul taqwa in arabic. We looking to expand into australia, canada, and western europe as well. Will engage social Media Companies and request their support promoting the ship and hoping users looking for extremes content are provided access, the pathways to the light upon light message of hope. Light upon light itself will increase its coverage of extremist related activity. We see a communication of an online portal that can help Grassroots Research in journalism that convinced podcasts, online videos and other media back and arm public with information that confront polarization with coverage and commentary that enhances resilience and offers a worldview that creates a collective nonpolarizing consciousness. Aspers interventions, weve been advocating for a government to focus for cve that focuses specifically on the intervention space. A focus that might reduce public criticism of cvn government involvement within and provide an alternative to reliant on obfuscation and interdiction. This might at the tool to the counterterrorism toolbox the mechanism for society or positions like her own to conduct targeted interventions we put together a proposal for next year that would lead to uniformity and dental recordkeeping, advance online course that can train and empower our key interventionists with information and, instruction and your homestand and communication. We want to replicate essentially the field of Substance Abuse treatment, feel that as a fall to on form advocates armed with formal training to produce an improved outcomes. As for save hate will be utilizing a partnerships to increase number of our shape shifters. In 2020 would be a volatile and contentious year for certain we will be looking to present the magazine the 15 different cities in the United States, particularly we will speak, enhance awareness, educate those on the front lines, and part better understand risk indicators and a tour will expand the save hate and initiative. After our visit we will retain contact with those committees so when something comes up they know we are available to support their own localized efforts. In conclusion, we are very honored to be a today. I Society Society we need to effectively all together paused in the space between students and respond to alter course and recognize that each of us does, in fact, have a role to play and ability to address the consequences of polarization, hate extremism pic as Albert Einstein once put it, no problem hasnt been solved at the same level of consciousness that created it. We seek nothing less than a paradigm shift in the realm of preventing and counting extremism. I look forward to these discussions. Thank you very much for joining us. [applause] call the rest of the panel to the stage. I will get some quick interest. Thank you, jesse. So first two might media that is mitch silber, ceo of parallel networks, and or position he cofounded with jesse morton and also found a principal at the guardian group, intelligent and to consulting firm. Prior to his work at guardian crew make subdistrict of intelligence analysis at the nypd where he was a principal counterterrorism advisor to the Deputy Commissioner of intelligence and was responsible for building out and imagining the cyber units. Then next we have brad galloway. He is a research and intervention specialist with the organization for prevention of violence which is based in edmonton alberta. Recently bratt has joined with parallel networks to work on various initiatives to count hate and violent extremism in the United States. Next to jesse is jeff schoep. Until early 2019 jeff is one of the most prominent figures of the neonazi movement in the United States turkey was a national leader, command of the National Socialist movement are over 25 years. It is now his mission to end the violence caused by extremism and radicalization. Today jeff is an extremist consultant and works with parallel networks as a prevention and intervention specialist. So thank you all for being here today. So lets start with the focus of parallel networks before we zoom in and discuss policy in the United States. Starting with the jesse, you talk about the existence and similarities of far right, far left and jihadist tactics and propaganda and how they feed off of each other . And for example, the new neonazi social networking platform called the base, kind of ties into alqaeda because in arabic alqaeda means the base. And also some far right groups have glorified the symbol according to reporting. So its a very complicated issue. Effectively of three primary princes of the objectives and gardens that lead between the far right and jihadism. To some degree the far left as well. Really, you have this notion that the community is under threat, that the white race is attacked. So there that is essential that demarcating characters, in order to reserve yourself from the tax violence is justified. Then you have this real issue with the extremist mindset which is resistant to change and alteration and preserve traditionalism as a way to defend themselves from that. We see that with regard to the psyche of the white has no state or returning back to something that is akin to such, and with regard, if returned back, essentially the third demarcating characters of that one similar to his return to utopian path but sometimes we overplay that because of that utopian path. If you pull its a utopian path that can be expanded in line with their preconceptions and interests. What we see really in my opinion is what faceting for someone who is active from 20032011 is a lot of whats going on with the far right now the focus is on them replicates almost to a t the approach we utilize with the jihadists speaking, really the top of our concern particularly after [inaudible] attacks are carried out and we suddenly realize homegrown violent extremism was primary import. And so the adjustments that you reference like with organizations like space or two because if you look at the images and i wont get too far into it, but hes a look at images of the people that are pledging allegiance to albaghdadi, right now it looks almost identical. Seven or eight kids in the woods with guns pledging allegiance to their new leader. And if you look at the images of groups like now they are fracturing and the base, five or six young white men in the woods, armed with ak47s. If you watch the propaganda, the videos, adam just really Something Like seven individual training and shooting, frank insectlike and isis wouldve been framed back at the heyday of the onslaught and you talk about by identifying the recipe which ascended frequently over telegram. Theres a jihadi mask comes out to a kitchen, tradition, new tradition, new kitchen completely remodeled and tedious one like hes at a cooking show how to produce in their home with basic household items. The group promoted this in the far right and said dhcp, its easy to make. Then had a samosas up Osama Bin Laden that they were incorporate in their propaganda. Even with regard to the reaction the far rights efforts taken down off mainstream youtube platforms [inaudible] it was a much very first case of isolated radicalization and the pilots a belief the British Company called for taken but he really what we did is we adjusted by migrating to other platforms and using youtube in way that was committed and prevent take down due to the terms of service agreement. Thats the same thing the far right is today, a variance, a topic that you could go on for hours about but its important to identify this so we dont make the same mistakes that were made when confronting the jihadists. Thank you. Does anyone want to talk about some narratives that it is been used by any of these groups and think have changed a bit tipping on another ideology . I think what he was saying about adam waffen do things like this with the far right, its come these guys always fractured each other, the infighting that led me write it think that how they are never satisfied with just the one group picketed zep fracturing and these are good intervention points, especially for Law Enforcement and for us as interventions try to set okay, this group looks like its the action, lets go see if we can talk to some of his neighbors whether online or at least want to do typical door knock senators. Just go and check in on these guys and see what theyre up to. I mean, thats where community and sort of mix with i think the different agencies that are out there looking into these groups. In the canadian perspective, some of this has been a bit of a challenging these different types of groups coming up but definitely this infighting thing is leading to these groups falling apart. We want to take advantage of those scenarios. Thats something the sims back many, many, many years in the far right its constantly divisive topic between the different groups of the infighting so these are good opportunities to get in there and try to pull people out. Okay. Thats very helpful. Also tying directly into your tonight. He mentioned hate groups that were identified in the u. S. In 2017. Can you give us at the of whats then of these groups can how many are phyla, how many are still active . Thats a number drawn from reporting. Its an important one. Its hard to categorize. In order to make you dont have to call for violence but theres an Implicit Association with it. What are the key things is members of the state groups oftentimes dont act in the name of the ideology or the cause of the movement, but because theyre associated and affiliated with this network that is promoting hate and extremism you oftentimes go to commit violence and other amounts otherwise, Domestic Violence is very important. These could be anywhere if you look at the list, anywhere from five groups of guys appearing on a campus, all going up to National Socialist movement which is one of the larger entities. The fact there so disperse is an indication that there is very, far right is hard to understand. This paper released this morning that try to demarcate between nativism, antigovernment and racist violence. But theres so many different strands. The phenomena we are seeing now post tehran is the transnational station of the ideology revolving around the great replacement three and its adoption by almost every single facet of the far right. Thank you. So jeff, i wonder if you talk about what do you into the neonazi movement in the first place and what made you disengage and give radicalized after 25 years . And also, could you tell us what that process has been like and what your experience has been in combating some of those narratives with your former peers . Well, starting out, its something that literally anybody can get involved in. I know a lot of people have a story that they came from a bad home or they had some sort of trauma. I want the public to understand that its something that literally anyone can be recruited to. I come from a middleclass home, a normal family. My dad and mom were there. But literally anybody can be brought into these types of movements. And for some that are looking for brotherhood, looking for a network of people to be part of it for others its ideological base. For me it was ideological race. But once you are in there and the various tactics that can bring you there, i mean, we utilize our proven tactics under many different ways if someone was religious we would use christian identity. If someone was really into music we would use music. If someone was into the politics can we would use the politics. If someone had at that explains with someone of another race, we would use that. So theres not one specific tool that is used to bring people in and thats okay to look at astros bring people out, too. Its almost like youre inside of a bubble and you are part of this bubble and you dont see the outside world when you are in there. So to get people outside of that bubble, i think its important we use kindness, compassion, the mercian type of activities, get to and understand the world outside of the bubble. In a lot of ways, i more referred to as a cultlike thing now. I know when is in the movie i didnt like that definition because a cult is a bad thing, right . When we joined, i didnt join the movement because i hated anybody. Or because i wanted to impress anybody. I jointed from the sense of im a patriot. I want to protect my country. I want to protect my people. A lot of people that joined adjoining for those reasons, not for the reasons that they just symptomatically hate people. Its they think theyre doing a good thing. So to an work that and get the person outside of the bubble is not just a simple process where you say this person is use hateful and thats why they are there. The hate came from me later. It wasnt something that drove me there. I didnt have bad experiences with minorities are of the people. It was ideologically taste. Is that what you refer to as the counterculture . You had an article also we discussed anyone is susceptible to recruitment of any referred to the counterculture. Its at the bubble. Yes. The counterculture is in a move and yet understand, you know, as i explained to people, we had an answer for everything. We had the National Socialist movement was producing video games. We had two different videogames produce over the years. We had, i think the group still had at least five radio shows, podcasts that are on everyday of the week. April could call in and ask questions. Some online chat. There was a forum. There was music and bands. There was family barbecues all kinds of things. So an entire culture all wrapped into one. It goes back to the cult type scenario where everyone you know is in there. When you leave and when youre in there, almost everyone you know, all of your friends, sometimes your family, sometimes people dont have good Family Networks and support networks, everyone you know is inside that bubble. So to leave, your literally turning your backs on everyone that you know, every person that you know inside your support network. One of the females that i brought out since i left, she said, we were kind of brainstorming about what of the Different Things we can do . This is what i am with parallel networks is because they have that counterculture idea and plan to go forward with it. But one of the females, she had said, she said we need Something Like a college anonymous but for people in the movement. Because it offers that come from that simplistic outlook at office offers that support. Offers people that are in their and understand, and thats what its all born formers are involved in this process because you can have all the education, all knowledge in the world and if you try to talk to one of these people that have been there, theres going to be a disconnect. They are not going to quite understand. They will say this person may be seems like you know what theyre talking about but havent been there, they dont know what ive been through. They dont know what its like. We are just predetermined almost to fight against that, to fight against anybody coming in and criticizing the movement or our ideology. Its like with confirmation bias. You believe what the answer is that you want, you know, any type of thing like, for example, the holocaust. You look at the revisionist literature and say thats the truth, even if you fax from the other side that are there. Because you want what the movements that is the truth. So break that down, its not an instant process. Nobody just as, snap of the fingers, about of the movement. It is a long process. It takes time and formers are critical to this process because i mean, simple way to break it down, you know, the formers understand that world. They understand how we got there, and we understand now how to get them out. So you said that your giveaways of bringing people in and it depends on what that person, i guess what sparked an interest for them. Is that i guess one thing is how do you keep the Movement Together if you all these different segments . And then how do you also bring people out knowing that you got them in a certain way . Is that a tactic to remove them as well . Yes. With the National Socialist movement one of the things that we found, i cross into a lot of different ropes. I would be invited to talk at clan gatherings, skinhead gathering strips i wasnt just at the head of the National Socialist movement. I knew people from all of the different groups so taken that into consideration going okay, this group like leak of the south, for example, this is a group that focus on neil confederacy and things like that. They would focus on that and that was sort of their niche. So different groups would have different needs. Niches. The National Socialist movement and a lot of them have religion before us are handbook, it said religion was for home and family. Because i found that one of the most divisive things in the movement early on was the religious thing, whether it was between jihadism and christian identity, regular christianity, catholics, atheist, creators come all these Different Things and they were all fight against each other, not, you know, china clashes or anything like that like you do in congress but ideological clashes within the Movement Building where some of them would say well, when civil war breaks out were going to go take care of these guys. If they dont believe in our god, so i saw it as a very divisive thing and for us we kept it sort of inhouse. So we didnt have, and our structure, our structure was set up more like in a ranked militaristic type of structure. Like the army. So yet Different Levels in the organization you had Different Levels that would answer those types of things. Okay. Thank you. So can we talk about spreading of the message wax so whats the role of national and local media into submitting extremist messages, your perspective squirts on really, jessie and jeff, how did you use that to your advantage when youre pushing out message points using the media knowing what they could or couldnt do . How did that frame your approach . I think ill start because we cant spearheaded that with the jihadism and of the far right is immolating it. We could get into summa stuff we espoused was just to get in the press. So they put us on cnn and do it put us on fox news but the number one thing that we concert on was we knew if we could get the at the islamic blockers to get more awareness and to arm them with the ammunition they need to send a balsams were coming to intimate sharia law, that we could create first device of this and created antisentiment, we could just depend on our evidence. It wasnt so much the Mainstream Media. Mainstream media was good because your website will go from getting a couple thousand hits a day to getting hundreds of thousands of hits a day. We kind of master that artform. Its interesting the way the media works because you would think that would be an overwhelming interest in promoting some positive work at the work we are doing. If we were out there promoting a rally against, for white civil rights are something we would have massive bd lined up today. Nobody wants to come with a positive stories because thats that was seltzer gets ready. Its the sensationalism that tries to mediate between extreme as well as comparison with any media. Its so easy for us to exploit that and we used to always do the what you do then is what people dont realize is if you can try bbq website or to social media count the number of followers go up but you get a part in the rankings of Google Search engine so you start to appear, not anymore, fifth, retta that. Theres a really important, the importance of getting into Mainstream Media with activity that you do is key to the work of a recruiter. For us in the National Socialist movement we had a press release department. We had a guy who was a journalist that would write it in the way that you would submit it to the press, and would send out mass emails to all the press in the area at a time. We would send it, you know, in the subject line, but not to, something that will jump out. You to put National Socialist Movement Press release, a lot of press wouldnt even look. So we became a sort of experts in the sense of how to manipulate that. We knew it wasnt going to be good press no matter what, but that didnt matter. As long as they were not saying really, really bad things. We knew that we could reach the public through the press like nothing we ever did before. So we did public rallies and we would announce we would be here. We sometimes would challenge people to debate and things like that. Anything to generate press and activity, focus, traffic website to our shows and things like that, and speeded well step away from this conversation for just a moment as they use senate is meeting and if pro forma session today. Live coverage of the senate here on cspan2 cspan2. Come to order. Under the previous order, the Senate Stands adjourned until 10 00 am on tuesday, until 10 00 am on tuesday, that takes away, i think, looking at it from the side of the west, they think they will stop the movement by impacting people in the movement. It does just the opposite. They would say we did an event in mississippi one time. The police cordoned off the area a handful of people from the downtown area. The guys that were there with us it was demoralizing. Other times, why cant we have that again . They knew you could not attack somebody that was against our rules. I had done this for 27 years total. National socialist movement. Arrested for violence at a rally it did not hit somebody first. To say that people were hoping or wishing for that violence would be incorrect. Turning that into something that they thrive on. They would shut down this group, that absolutely does not work. Thats what they want. What is the strategy . Inciting violence is the number one way to push out messages in a lot of ways. What is the alternative then . Kind of trying to quell this. I feel like in this country everybody has the right to protest. The right, the left or whatever in between. It is kind of a complicated thing. In some ways, like the example in mississippi, it was demoralizing to the people that were coming. The counter argument from the other side is, just allow it, these guys will grow peaceful protesting. Counter protesting is fine. The moment he crosses that line into violence, whatever side it is coming from is wrong. That is where Law Enforcement needs to come in and typically they do. They will take in people that have committed criminal acts. Either ignoring completely, we are talking from the street level counter protester, either 100 hundred peaceful. Okay. Thank you. Im thinking we could talk a little bit about gab and telegram. Everyone is trying to counter that. Trying to also change course. They are actively pursuing ways to engage on different platforms trying to counter the narrative or the work we are doing. What are we missing . What is the next thing . No matter what we do, there will be a neck a chamber that they create for themselves. They will find someplace to do it. Whether online or offline. Recently somebody sent me this thing. 100,000 different videos. What is that about . That is just about them saying, you know, screw it. We will just go here. That will just be a way that it will go. How are they going to remove it . Each company has their different way of looking at it. In a sense, these guys want to socialize. They want to hear from each other about what it is, what the next steps are for them. What should they be doing. What things did they do bad in the past where they could work on most things. A lot of that talk used to happen on the storm front. Storm front is a lot of Law Enforcement on there. Why dont we just make a platform for ourselves. I think that that will continue. I think that we need to be up on it. Having them involved in this type of work. We understand what they are going to do. I used to recruit online for years. These different types of platforms. Social media when it came out. Facebook. All of these Different Things. I think that it is really important that we keep uptodate on these things. Especially trying to create some sort of standardization platform how we work online. Trying to engage people online. I think that those are important things for us to try to keep up with. These guys are forever trying to stay ahead of the game. Definitely a positive forward thinking motion for us to be working alongside all of the different agencies. Decentralized web. To understand what thats going to look like . More mainstream, 10 years down the road. Telegram will continue. Very weary of what is forcing that around facebooks revelation of privacy. What is happening, migration is true. Because people are migrating, facebook is losing followers of those that actually shop and spend money. Due to public privacy concern, self demolishing storyboards. Only your friends can watch. They are basically creating on facebook with crypto currency but they dont want to talk about it. Conducting the research. The first time they stumbled across. We would be talking about that two or three years down the road. Takedown will never work. They came in and study the results. Counterproductive for those committed to the ideology. Same thing we are seeing now. Only amplified the message of those that are more prone to actually progress to violent extremism. They have lower numbers with the grievance. They dont allow us to speak. Harming the narrative that says if you cannot speak might as will act violently in the street. That is a really good point. I would like to expand on that a little bit. That is one thing that we use. I was banned from facebook. Not because just because of my name alone. Just like vacation ventures. Having somebody anonymously encounter, encounter, counterintelligence like this all the time on all Different Levels. There is just one little example. On facebook we set that profile up. Just do that. Send an anonymous message to facebook. Why are you guys doing this . This was years ago. This was the deal with facebook and twitter. It was banned instantly. In another sense of that, on twitter, we would point out black movements. They would say, they would would have certain people saying things like kill every white man kill every white woman. Kill every child. Whether you post that. That account was deleted. The reason im mentioning these things, a lot of people think, they have good intentions. I get it. They want to censor these things. Get all the white nationalists off of twitter. As recruiters in the movement, it did not discourage us. You are being treated unfairly. Others are allowed to promote violence against you guys. It was like self, it did radicalize them. We could say, look, here, here is the proof. Everybody else can. I am not making an excuse. I was simply explaining this is how you get further radicalized. Russian facebook. Off of facebook and everything else. You just find different ways. Counter extremism and prevent to reach them. Around 15 years old the crew came out. That is the one who started the whole pmrc as they were censoring things and stuff like that. Never in my life that i listen to rap music at 15 im watching 2020. Nightline. I am watching nightline. Explaining it. I drove to the nearest record store. It is like the forbidden fruit. Not to give a biblical reference. Adam and eve in the garden. People say White Nationalism and all of these things are something you should not look at. You should not be able to check into it. It will have that effect. How to get them out and what brings them there. Talking to jesse since ive been out. Close minded about certain things. They are very openminded. I thought, i had to think about it for a minute. I would have never gotten into it in the first place. That is one of the key proponents, components to finding people in there. In some cases, impossible. The people that came because they are openminded and looking at alternative, alternative forms of politics, tired of of the republicans and democrats, thank you. Before we get to audience q a, and i hope you have questions, want to zoom out a little bit and talk about policy. The u. S. Has a joint Terrorism Task force that has teams and 104 cities across the country. Can they and should they prioritize . They should. A couple of different complicating factors that have interfered with that. It has not been a policy priority for the u. S. Obviously changing. Other events. Then there gets to more logistic mechanistic issue. Unlike al qaeda, unlike the al qaeda state declared foreign terrorist organizations, giving the fbi particular investigative tools in which they could use to get leverage over individuals, intelligence tools, penetrate the organization, for the most part, these groups have not been categorized the same way. Some of these groups are in fact transnational. One could argue they have done this with their group of sweden. You could actually call them. In fact, i think House Homeland Security committee has come out in favor of declaring some of these transnational groups as ftos. Thereby neighboring the task force to have the same tools and investigate those organizations. When you get the strictly domestic u. S. Organizations that do not have international presence, you get to one level more complicated because they will not fit into that fto box. And then the question, can u. S. To go government declare it as a Domestic Terrorist Organization . There has been resistance to do that. There is another countervailing argument. Domestic organizations doesnt interfere with free speech. A pure state. I do not violently act out on that. I am sort of in the free speech category. Therefore, difficult for the task force to investigate. There is been a lot of discussion on how you get to those types of groups. How you create the tools for Law Enforcement. An ongoing discussion that has not been resolved. Obama, eog have talked about the potential side rails. Allowing greater investigations of those organizations. Okay. In terms of the fto designation, do you feel like that could be a work around, at least for now, to get people in nonmaterial support are there any negatives to at least starting with that . I dont think so. This organization has a foreign presence. A foreign entity. A very effective tool. Combating, who aspired to be part of the Islamic State and al qaeda. I absolutely think that that should be a tool for Law Enforcement. That seems to be the first step. I believe some people have called for 9 11 Style Commission for combating domestic terrorism. Do you have thoughts on that which mark reshaping what it looks like . 9 11 commission. Is it more time for study than is necessary since we sort of know the nature of the product . There are some potential nearterm. Yes. People talked about adding a domestic terrorism to the counterterrorism center. Something that is viable and an addon. A component that you just snap in place. It seems viable. I am not sure you really need to go through the whole process of being involved. Doing the study. Figuring out the results. Just that whole process. That is really helpful. Thank you. One last thing that i want to cover, looking at ukraine and what that means. There have been a lot of people, this is from one example tiered among others have been charged in the u. S. In connection with violence at political rallies including in charlottesville. They have traveled with ukraine to meet with members. In your opinion, what is the draw for americans . And then what is the lesson that we need to learn. Is this something were not paying enough attention to in the United States . If anybody wants to jump in on that. Yes. I think that it is interesting. I think we talked a little bit about the transnational eyes asian of the message. I think that we are going to see more of it. I also think that it is an indication that we should start to worry about the sustainability of the world or that we establish. I think we need to start to consider the fact that economically, politically, socially we are fragmenting in ways that we are not recognizing we are much more serious than we imagine. One of the reasons that when we conceptualize the scope of our mission with regards to the message, we had to widen it to include polarization. We see the consequences of the fabrics. Polarization enhances and radicalization in turn certainly enhances. We can see that happening from the topdown and bottomup. What we know is if a very low base rate violent extremists, the only thing you have to do to increase that is increase the polar radicals. This is true across the globe. Once you get a message that is coherent at a transnational level, what you get is more support for tehran. The people promoting from the altright, getting land vested by the far right. The neonazi book that calls for leaderless resistance. Whereas people when the tree of life synagogue shooter went in and he said screw your optics, i am going in. He was talking to the altright ability to portray himself as a mass movement. Now, when he launched, they all ridiculed him as counterproductive. Part of the problem. Now when you speak like that, considering themselves radicalization preventers. They dont advocate. Now, when they they say, hey, we are looking to be radicalized, listen to us. Now the entire chat group goes at them and calls them complete hypocrites. Migrating away from them. That is because of the manifesto ideology that has been coming, expanding and becoming more coherent. That is a byproduct of that. This type of thing involved with eastern europe. I was working on things online. How do we go back there. That is our utopia. That is the utopian society that they want to give back to. That is the goal. How do we get there . In the group i was in, it was all about that little microbe and making it a macro thing. The internet was the first thing. Now, of course, they have these different groups that are just accelerating everything across all different aspects of the internet. That is what they want. Anything is an accelerant. Anything that they can find to use. And then actually have guys going over to europe. This is a new phenomenon today to go fight. Guys at least in our Group Starting chapters all throughout europe, australia, uk. That was sort of the beginnings of how the internet made it available. Within these movements we could share these ideas and move them much bigger than just cities and towns across america. Okay. Ukraine, two, a big part of the reason people are going over there is to get that training. Get that combat experience. You have National Socialists. They are going on both sides. Just to fight for things like that. The thought of the people in the movement, this will break into a civil war. You want that. That is why we were sending people into the military all the time. For years and years and years. There was a confidential fbi report that had come out about 10 years ago. They were talking about the numbers that they knew in the different organizations. How many were in the different groups. They were fairly accurate. Since then, i would say by the time i left, about 50 of the membership had military experience in the past which was, before that, talking 10 . 15 . By the time i left it was about 50 . Thank you. Now, to you. Just raise your hand. Identify yourself yourself and your affiliation. Thank you. It will come on in the back. I have a question for jeff. You will hear liberals, progressive used terms like White Supremacy as an explanation for membership. Eventually moving to violence within the movement. Given what you said today, there are not a lot of utility in those terms. Internal disputes that seem beyond these abstract or broad labels. Or concepts. Wondering what you think of those two terms whether they are explanatory power. Also, internally how White Supremacists are, again, it seems like there is a lot more complication, complexity. How they used those terms being used as an explanation. I guess that it depends on the individual groups. It is a really wide array of the way people look at it. For example, an actual socialist movement. I use that as a reference point. We called ourselves they white civil rights organization. Most of the guys will tell you they are not white supremacist. We knew, publicly speaking, we gave a pep speech before a rally and told people no cussing. Anybody is that doing that under the microphone, somebody should, not always, but that would be the end of that person speech, if they were doing that. We knew that those buzzwords were not going to go over well with the public. As long as i can remember, i am not not call myself a White Supremacists. This is a word that is used often by the media. There are people in the movement if i could just depend on the gloomy affiliation, it all depends on how that is looked upon. As far as a terminology. I guess the other part of your question, how does the outside world view that . You guys could have the Media Coverage to your advantage. Productive. They dont have much explanatory power. White supremacist. Any other motive. The whiteness thing, yes. It was all all about identity. The idea that you are fighting for your tribe. If you were involved in the movement, you arent like im in this because i hate other people and i want to hold them down. Even in some of my speeches, we are on the rampart. We are standing up. The last line in the white race. These are things that i would say up there to inspire people. To get them motivated in that. I think a lot of them see it as acceleration is him. They see it as an attack on whiteness. As an attack on their solidarity. An attack on their people rather than the countermeasure of, lets hold down, very few groups in the movement talking about holding these people down. We want to bring back slavery. A bunch of drunken guys at at a Backyard Barbecue might say Something Like that. That is not the real concern. There will be bigots and hateful people. They see it a more larger picture. Their race in their people under attack. That is why it is more difficult to break. Systematic racism easier to break. Because they see it as more of a world view, that is what makes it more complex. I worked with jason who started united i was trying to get amount of the movement. Definite rapport. Putting them on the spot in an interview. The biological race argument. We are not White Supremacists. We just look for data. It doesnt mean that we are superior. It just means certain aspects, on the aggregate, we help perform. What it does is it provides a justification to have impeaching classes. If you go on youtube or a platform that is preserved and you listen to jared taylor, it sounds reasonable. The problem is there is no counter against it. They have millions of views. You are armed with White Supremacists. It is being categorized. Becoming a White Supremacists. They are in danger of becoming neonazis. An approach to dealing with jihadism. Making it worse. Counterterrorism bureau. I applaud the effort especially looking at it from and ecosystem approach. You have really offered essential insight that helps us understand these phenomenons. Sort of competitive political movements. I think thats the correct way to look at them. Things in particular that our dilemma for all of us in trying to confront these types of phenomenons. Just want to articulate them a little bit more concretely. X essential threats. Those are not new. They will always exist. What is different is the context that make those ideas. When you are combating these networks, you are combating them in context. The context is pretty depressing right now. Regardless of where you are looking on the planet. What is your strategy the with the complex . Trying to hit many different areas of the world. Many different types of militant groups. The local level is very important. Really having a chance in reducing the prominence of any one group. Relatedly, and that is very difficult, i think, think, in a context where polarization is up where a lot of these groups, perspectives have become mainstream, as you have articulated. It leads to the situation where society increasingly blackandwhite terms. The related issue that you touched on was the dilemma that government and other aspects, communities have in that the risk of shining additional light on them actually increasing their prominence. Making an argument that some of these all right groups, once you shine one more light on their activities, their behaviors, they actually cower and reduce in terms of relevance and vibrance and whatnot. Well organized groups seeking to gain creative recognition by virtue of their behavior whether it be violent or nonviolent, they are looking for that Mainstream Media coverage as a critical measure of success in the building block. As governments, as a civil society, how do you, what is is the right medium in coverage so that you are not actually doing the work for them. I will answer briefly. I think mitch might have something to say based on means. I think that you used a very important term. We are constantly looking at the Academic Work that goes on. The interns that are on the ground studying new stuff know it 10 times better than they do. Quite frankly a lot of it was published into that. And to our experience. The thing that is always missing his context. If i want to shape behavior, i cannot shape the individual if i do not shape the environment and make it cant do stiff to being able to affect the behavior im trying to impact. This is just something that is never discussed. Crisis management. We are not trying to create a paradigm shift. We are trying to predict what might happen. The overwhelming point. Allocated attention on White Supremacy is an issue. The way that it has been covered, particularly by groups, i have to say that. The way that it has been covered is only amplifying the grievance they have induced a Democratic Party that has made White Supremacy the key narrative of the election and so now what we have is strategically testing manipulation of that in conjunction with other organizations that pretend to be nonviolent in the way dont hit back unless you are hit. Drawing like magnets shooting everything that is violent and saying why is this on cnn. Because hes never been on the ground at a rally. What we have to understand about the context and understand the responsibilities of the media, if you are going to report on something, at least stick to the subject. That is the easiest way i can describe that. Thank you. I am just curious about the connection between the Mainstream Media and the extremism that you are talking about. On talk radio every night. It seems pretty hateful. Are these Different Things or they feeding each other . If they are, right wing media and major source preparing the ground for the kind of extremism you are dealing with. How do you ever do anything about that . I just want to say one sentence. A lot seems incredibly hateful to those that are conservative. When we start to point that out and think in those terms, not just. Also. I think that that is one of the biggest things about the misunderstandings of what is going on. Especially the far right right now. Why are we only talking about, i dont want to say it was names here, but the info wars and things like that. I just dont think that they are worth talking about. Mainstream media talked a lot about the info wars. This is awesome. I will recruit a whole bunch of people today. I just think we are wasting time talking about these. Backyard conspiracy theories him if we dont just give them a platform. It is a way where we are just like so many perspectives that are weird. Drawing people in and talking about it. I think just as much on the far right is the far left. Some of the liberal stuff that im seeing in canada. It becomes problematic. The focus is all in one area. Trying to be careful with who we are giving a broad platform. Thank you. The intercept. My question is about the intervention that you guys do and ive experienced. What is your relationship with Law Enforcement in regards to seeking out people to intervene with. The director has given me different numbers. Sometimes as many as 1000 open investigations. Do you bump across the fbi targeting people . How do you ensure the folks youre trying to intervene with that you are maintaining the privacy and security. There is no mechanism for Law Enforcement to have an alternative. That is largely because of people that report arrest. As if every single case is a case of entrapment. When you report that, it never goes to trial. Only enough evidence to charge a person. Nothing to do with the underlying investigation. The reporters that hate the government. More typically in the government could provide a practical alternative. So that they can later get entrapment. They hinder the very solution. If government could not open up an investigation, i tell you society would be a lot better place. Grants from government agencies. Conducting interventions on people that encounter messaging. Serious risk of violence. There is not enough evidence to continue surveillance. Just talking about an individual looking at government involvement. Not successful in this place. I know they started a referral request. Who knows. Starting to talk about where things become a Public Safety risk. Actually just meant for us to be talking to these people. Community organizations. It is happening the mechanisms of precriminal space. If you can go and intervene, a dialogue and begin the process well before those things. Law enforcement might be doing work. Given to these people to work on some groups and things like that that come into play. That is dependent upon different standpoints, viewpoints. The narrative tried to present in those groups. They are multilayered. They should be there at the table. The Committee Members doing more of this. A question for jess. Traditionally when i think of Civil Rights Movement i think of a certain objective like desegregation, for example. What was the objective . What did they want, ultimately . The way we viewed it, it was under attack. Of course black people these other minority groups need their Civil Rights Movements. When we go back to the 1960s and when Voting Rights even before that for women, for blacks, we, we are not the same. Now it is almost like the movement we flip that. Okay, now we have hiring quotas. A less qualified person a job. A more qualified white person does not get the job. These were all the things youre trying to overturn. Hate crime charges. Something i hammered on that. You get somebody. You will do the time for it. I met with peoples families that a been in this case. Nineteen20 years old. He gets into a fight. He took it too far. He is doing 78 years in years in prison for a fight. Hate crime charges. Those are the things like these designs, helping the other races and tried to give equal footing. We would turn that around and say, look, these are white people. White civil right advocates. That was on narrative. Taking away what the movement is moving. Taking those things away. We have time for one more question. American university. We are already talk about fragmentation. Experiences for generational. Working on intervention. How do you ensure that you are staying current and continuing to reach the young movement. Not trusting any adults. Some of the interventions on staff. Working with a lot of volunteers online. They find something online. Scrolling down. I know everything happen in discord. We have to recruit the young. Generation, if you you dont attack and think it is countering, a significant to the point where the radicalized errors for the ideas in the english language. When it was pronounced, many more people traveled there. Looking at the data on it, those people that traveled there were heavily influenced by the organizations that are established. Exactly what happened they mocked the boomers. Lets rock. There is that metastasize asian and we think about a generationally it would be something we need to consider. A youth symposium. Some of the greatest ideas for these 15yearold kids. What do you know about facebook. We are a little behind in the game. We need to teach them how to use instagram and twitter. What are they willing to share. I think that is from a research perspective. That is what we need to be looking at. Violent extremism in general. What are their routines. What kind of content makes them go. When is it . Again, we can learn a lot from them. Sort of shape some of the things we should be doing when we are thinking about doing intervention. Especially with the vulnerable populations. Excellent. Thank you all for coming. Please take a moment to think our panelists. [applause] thank you. [inaudible conversations] house impeachment investigators meeting today even though the house is not in session among those scheduled but not expected to appear today senior aide to the president acting chief of staff and Office Management Budget Energy expert and two of National Security council attorney. A former National Security Council Senior director on europe and russia fiona hill was back to answer Committee Questions as Olivia Beaver reports she did not answer questions on the way in. Investigating committee has released the transcript of the Ukraine Ambassador and you could read it on our website cspan. Org. Intelligence Committee Chair adam