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Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Naomi Klein 20240713 : vimar
Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Naomi Klein 20240713 : vimar
CSPAN2 In Depth Naomi Klein July 13, 2024
Thanks for joining us in the studios here on cspan2 book tv. We are branding and marketing and these are a big business. Let me begin with your first book. What did you learn about microsoft, starbucks . Guest its great to be with you and have this time. When i was writing this it came out at the very beginning of 2000 so its almost exactly 20yearsold. The period i was reacher researching it it was a period that a lot was changing in the corporate world and you had dispersed fullblown lifestyle brand which is an idea that we all take for granted that these are companies that for the first time were declaring the
Business Model
wasnt to sell products but ideas, the lifestyle, sense of belonging the that they could then extend into kind of selfimposed cocoons and sell everything as long as it was branded with this logo. They were the first one to do this. They didnt ever own their factories and this was the main thing i learned when i was researching is that there was a relationship between this progressive kind of marketing that was constantly trolling the
Youth Culture
to find the most cuttingedge ideas to get them into places that never had abs before like schools and
Music Festivals
and so on but there was an inverse relationship between that aggressive marketing and the kind of good jobs that were not offered in the economy because the way that the companies were freeing up money to spend on this much more aggressive
Lifestyle Marketing
by divesting from their factories on the idea they should be producers that all. So, they kind of paved the way in this sense because they never owned factories in the first ngplace. They were going through the web of contractors that they put against one another for who they could provide for the lowest price and this was a
Business Model
all the competitors started closing their factories and never reopening it was the key thing they never reopened their factories. We often talk about the factory moving from north america to mexico or china or vietnam but in fact it wasnt just that they were moving locations. Its that they were never owning their factories and they didnt see themselves as producers. It is related to the de industrialization and the precariousness of work that we sort of take for granted today. Host as you point out, nike in particular getting a lot of criticism from its customers. Guest at the time because it was sort of new. This was still an america that remembers the manufacturing model where you understood the products before buying into the oucar you are buying it was an economic anchor for that community and the idea is that people making the cars should have enough money to buy the cars so it was culturally shocking for people to discover that the
Companies Like
nike or disney were spending so much money putting out images of themselves that were progressive and
Family Friendly
that you pull back the curtain and wait a minute in some cases its children or people in the early 20s making these products under abusive conditions. The conditions are pretty dubious and they have suicide maps to catch people when they commit suicide as they are so desperate on the job. That is one of the toughest thing to think about they are not getting paid for their overtime or having 2 p. M. Bottles under their sewing machines. They were genuinely scandalous and movements responding to them and people in shock and outrage about this has been bold. From the tenyear anniversary where in the c original edition that came out in 2000 i have to say a little bit about this who told us that their brand meaning is thatei they were what they called the thirdplace and they were using the discourse of the public sphere almost like a town square and it was interesting in the y 90s. They came along and said we are a pseudo town square which is what facebook is doing now in the digital town square in the 90s it was starbucks and you have your pseudo public space en is in order to capture any sense that they have to unbranded themselves carried host in the tenth
Anniversary Edition
of the book you talk about president obama and one of thers questions is dd he live up to his hope and change brand . Guest did he it was early in the obama years that i wrote that. Well, i think there was always something a little bit the obama brand in the sense that its hard to pin him down to the platformas and its interesting now because where we are if you look at the democratic primary. The labor policy platform and environmental policy platform. They help change, feeling good. And thats why i wrote about that as the
First Political
atcampaign that used the same tools that these
Corporate Lifestyle
brands had been using to sort of base themselves in an aura of progressivism. Its complicated that it never was very specific to say whether he lived up to it or not. As a
Small Business
and maybe more factory jobs were disappointed by that and its part of a global phenomenon. It makes people feel excluded and more precarious and secure and that set the stage for the rightwing populism we see worldwide. Host you can join us on twitter at mac tv. The next two hours on end depth. Seven to 88200 in the eastern and pacific time zones 7288201 for those in the amount and pacific time zones. You are teaching at rutgers university. How do you frame this in terms of your book, the original book and the tenyear anniversaryry edition . Guest and teaching one called the corporate self and it looks at the integration of the human and corporations. Where the logo and and remember this was written in the late 1990s, this then completely new idea needed to become their own brand in order to succeed in this newly precarious job environment. Nobody can expect the job security. Weve seen celebrities do this when i wrote that 20 years ago, it was a pretty notional idea anybody could be their own brand to pick up the money on advertisements and do the work of projecting an image of oneself that today because of social media, everybody that has computer access has the capacity to market themselves and market an idea of themselves to think about what is my brand. I have a group of students like first of all we talked about how this even though theyve grown up with this idea it is a relatively new idea the case he would have looked at if you were a man 30 years ago to say to a 15yearold kid not only would you want to be when you grow up but what is your brand and what does it to separate your soft from the idea to have that info does that do to friendships and relationships and unpack this because they know more about social media than i do. They are teaching me all the time and then the latest phase of this is connected to the fact we are living our lives online and a sort of constant performance of our personal brand is that the
Tech Industry
sees data as the new whale as it is often repeated as the bigger mining all the information that we are sharing. We are not getting any part of it and we are not paid for the idea that that we are providing for free so we are looking at all these questions around surveillance and surveillance capitalism, so its interesting to see once again to see how much has changed since i wrote that now quaint book. Host let me frame the question with the original new deal. Guest sure, and i think that theres inspiration to be taken in the original new deal and very important warnings to heed m from that era because so many people were excluded from protection under the fdrs new deal. For the works that were excluded it is also true that the
United States
transformed itself at a speed and scale for this compromise to the kind of speed and scale of change should we need to embrace if we are going to lower emissions in line with what the scientists are telling us. A year ago the
Intergovernmental Panel
on
Climate Change
are the foremost gathering of scientific experts who advise the government on the state of
Climate Science
and issued the report a a year ago saying we nd to cut the global emissions in half on a mere 12 years which is now 11 years. It would require professional transformation in virtually every aspect of society, energy, transformation, agriculture,
Building Construction
and so there are not many planes in history in which you can say this is a time we saw this kind of scale of transformation. When you have americans planted
Victory Gardens
in getting 40 of their use of the garden, basil factories transformed themselves very rapidly, but the new deal is another era which is less topdown and which is why i think it is a useful historical precedent. During the new era you saw america electrified with more than 10 million americans directly employed. We found all kinds of public infrastructures in the schools, libraries, reservoir and much of ythe public insured to go infrasucture today as part of theno new deal. Another that is quite relevant thinking about the
Green New Deal
is that conservation corps probably the most popular of the new deal programs and it is a reminder that the new deal was not only responding to an economic crisis but also in ecological crisis because of the dust bowl and the crisis of the deforestation so they sent more than 2
Million People
mostly fromop cities to the camps in rural parts of the
United States
andpl thats kind of scale is imported into the kind of thing we need to do to pull carbon out of the atmosphere. In the book you write the following quote what makes it so difficult for many of us to grasp is thato we live in a culture of perpetual present that we are shaping with our actions. Guest im trying to make visible the
Economic System
s and the relatively new economic and social models born of the particular kind of capitalism we have had since the reagan era which has been all of the deregulation, privatization and generating the individual consumers equally think with democracy and good good life thatch has produced an accelerad culture that offend people point to and say its just human nature we cant deal with a crisis like
Climate Change
because we are too selfish, too individualistic, we think to shortterm and it requires us to have a longer timeframe and to put the collective good ahead of something you might want just right now to satisfy the individual urge. So, there has been a lot written that has made this human nature argument about why we will never respond to this crisis. What i find when im talking about what we need to do in the face of the crisis i find that thege biggest obstacle that we e up against is not
Climate Change
denial or the lack of technology or understanding of what needs to be done. Its really the sense of doom that we as human beings are incapable of doing the things that are necessary. And thats why i think it is important to draw on these historical precedents that even if they are not exactly the kind of thing we need toe do now, thy do show that there are different ways and in the lifespan of people alive today, people were able to t think longer term and were able to put the collective good ahead of their individual desires and there are
Indigenous People
in
Northh America
who teach their children to think seven generations into the future and seven generations into their past. What im trying to do i guess this problem applies the sort of appeals to human nature that we hear a lot of and saying well actually, that is equating a particular relatively recent form of deregulated consumer capitalism with the idea of what it means to be human, and while we cant change the law of nature, we actually can change the system that we did create ourselves if they are threatening life on earth and in fact we need to do that. Im not saying its easy. Im just saying its possible. Host a 7yearold son who went apple pickingng yesterday. You moved around a lot though. For those who dont know naomi klein, just bend a minute to tell your life story than we will get to phone calls. Guest just a minute . Nlaughter] so, i was born in canada, in montreal and my parents are american. My parents were peace activists in the 1960s. My father didnt want toam go to vietnam and he had to choose atween jail and canada and like many of his peers, he chose canada so we moved to montreal and later back to the
United States
for a few years when i was very young. I was for a or 5yearsold and they decided they liked canada sbetter. Yi sometimes say that we left because of the war but we stayed for the universal public healthcare. [laughter] and my mother is a documentary filmmaker now retired. She worked for the
National Film
board of canada at the first womens film studio so she made some really for the feminist movement so i grew up with political parents. My father worked in the canadian healthcare system. He was involved in doing things like bringing midwives and the hospitals and big advocate for natural childbirth. Hes a. Family doctor, also retired. I wouldnt say i grew up in a really radical i have friends that have really serious radical parents and were homeschooled and their parents really walk the talk. I kind of grew up between worlds with their values i suppose, but going to regular schools in the 1980s. So i felt very pulled between the culture of the 1980s which was very shiny and appealing to me and my home life where my parents would say why do you want to hang out with your friends at the mall what is there at the mall why would you ever want to do
Something Like
that . Maybe thats why i wrote no logo in my 20s. Our conversation right you have been patient. Welcome to the conversation. Nice to speak with you. My main problem with the whole thing is the amount of energy that is required. Its impossible and the technologies just are not goingn to be there to this pie in the sky type of thinking. We need fossil fuels. There is no doubt about it for the foreseeable future. The other thing was just the environment itself. How do you explain the little ice age 10,000 years host thinks we will get a response. Guest can i answer . [laughter] thanks for the question. So im going to urge you to look up the work of
Mark Jacobson
at stanford university. Hes he is a professor of enging whos got a big team doing a really specific research about how effective is it with the existing technology to get to 100
Renewable Energy
, very rapidly for electricity first and transportation afterwards in line with what scientists are telling us we need to do. Thereve been huge breakthroughs in
Battery Storage
and price breakthroughs as well in the concept of
Renewable Energy
so i would disagree. I think it is possible to do. Like i said, im not saying that its easy, but i think the barriers are much more political than they are technological and that is concisely with a panel on
Climate Change
said when they set the target of halving the global emissions in 12 years in a faithful report. And i want to stress that drew on 6,000 sources and
Peer Reviewed
scienc science so itst just what a oneoff paper. Ike a oneoff paper. It was coauthored by almost 100 authors and reviewers. So, it is a stateoftheart ncscience. They said we can meet these targets with existing technolo technology. The very air is political. And in terms of the reason for the little ice age and i think heere were a few factors. One is there is a
High Altitude
volcano and this is why sometimes you have in my opinion quite frightening gao engineers talking about how one way we can deal with climate disruption is by imitating a
High Altitude
volcano by spraying sulfur into the upper atmosphere and reflecting more of the suns rays away from earth. So, that is one of the main reasons behind the little ice age and another reason that i do talk about this in the bucket for this followed the genocide against
Indigenous People
in the americas and theres been some new science looks at how this huge loss of life of many millions of people in the americas led to the reeducation and that i was part of it as well. Norwalk connecticut, steve, go ahead please. If you could turn the volume down and go ahead with your questions. Good morning, naomi. Can you heare me . Yes, they sure can. Guest i can. Caller okay, good. First, lets eliminate batteries. To make electric power to go into a battery, using fossil fuel you dont eliminate one molecule of co2. So i cant believe you wouldnt know that. But you evidently dont know that. I cannot believe that all these senators running p for president never mentioned
Hydrogen Fuel
cells which have been to be the only remedy to eliminate the co2 because there is no co2 when you use
Hydrogen Fuel
cells, period. Its that simple. So, ive sent a few messages on your facebook numerous times. I dont know if youve actually read this or just dismiss it or what you do, but anyway,y, you never mentioned
Hydrogen Fuel
cells. None of the candidates mentioned
Hydrogen Fuel
cells. Its the only remedy. I am going to have t a meeting with jeffries soon i hope to discuss this and the title of my book is reparations because what im suggesting is that a bear with me to be over a
Million People
necessary to do the work to completely change from fossil fuel electric power to
Hydrogen Fuel
cell electric power. Host we will get a response. Thank you for the question and comment. I think the reason why he isnt getting a response from any of the candidates isnt that the ideas are not being taken it is absolutely true that
Business Model<\/a> wasnt to sell products but ideas, the lifestyle, sense of belonging the that they could then extend into kind of selfimposed cocoons and sell everything as long as it was branded with this logo. They were the first one to do this. They didnt ever own their factories and this was the main thing i learned when i was researching is that there was a relationship between this progressive kind of marketing that was constantly trolling the
Youth Culture<\/a> to find the most cuttingedge ideas to get them into places that never had abs before like schools and
Music Festivals<\/a> and so on but there was an inverse relationship between that aggressive marketing and the kind of good jobs that were not offered in the economy because the way that the companies were freeing up money to spend on this much more aggressive
Lifestyle Marketing<\/a> by divesting from their factories on the idea they should be producers that all. So, they kind of paved the way in this sense because they never owned factories in the first ngplace. They were going through the web of contractors that they put against one another for who they could provide for the lowest price and this was a
Business Model<\/a> all the competitors started closing their factories and never reopening it was the key thing they never reopened their factories. We often talk about the factory moving from north america to mexico or china or vietnam but in fact it wasnt just that they were moving locations. Its that they were never owning their factories and they didnt see themselves as producers. It is related to the de industrialization and the precariousness of work that we sort of take for granted today. Host as you point out, nike in particular getting a lot of criticism from its customers. Guest at the time because it was sort of new. This was still an america that remembers the manufacturing model where you understood the products before buying into the oucar you are buying it was an economic anchor for that community and the idea is that people making the cars should have enough money to buy the cars so it was culturally shocking for people to discover that the
Companies Like<\/a> nike or disney were spending so much money putting out images of themselves that were progressive and
Family Friendly<\/a> that you pull back the curtain and wait a minute in some cases its children or people in the early 20s making these products under abusive conditions. The conditions are pretty dubious and they have suicide maps to catch people when they commit suicide as they are so desperate on the job. That is one of the toughest thing to think about they are not getting paid for their overtime or having 2 p. M. Bottles under their sewing machines. They were genuinely scandalous and movements responding to them and people in shock and outrage about this has been bold. From the tenyear anniversary where in the c original edition that came out in 2000 i have to say a little bit about this who told us that their brand meaning is thatei they were what they called the thirdplace and they were using the discourse of the public sphere almost like a town square and it was interesting in the y 90s. They came along and said we are a pseudo town square which is what facebook is doing now in the digital town square in the 90s it was starbucks and you have your pseudo public space en is in order to capture any sense that they have to unbranded themselves carried host in the tenth
Anniversary Edition<\/a> of the book you talk about president obama and one of thers questions is dd he live up to his hope and change brand . Guest did he it was early in the obama years that i wrote that. Well, i think there was always something a little bit the obama brand in the sense that its hard to pin him down to the platformas and its interesting now because where we are if you look at the democratic primary. The labor policy platform and environmental policy platform. They help change, feeling good. And thats why i wrote about that as the
First Political<\/a> atcampaign that used the same tools that these
Corporate Lifestyle<\/a> brands had been using to sort of base themselves in an aura of progressivism. Its complicated that it never was very specific to say whether he lived up to it or not. As a
Small Business<\/a> and maybe more factory jobs were disappointed by that and its part of a global phenomenon. It makes people feel excluded and more precarious and secure and that set the stage for the rightwing populism we see worldwide. Host you can join us on twitter at mac tv. The next two hours on end depth. Seven to 88200 in the eastern and pacific time zones 7288201 for those in the amount and pacific time zones. You are teaching at rutgers university. How do you frame this in terms of your book, the original book and the tenyear anniversaryry edition . Guest and teaching one called the corporate self and it looks at the integration of the human and corporations. Where the logo and and remember this was written in the late 1990s, this then completely new idea needed to become their own brand in order to succeed in this newly precarious job environment. Nobody can expect the job security. Weve seen celebrities do this when i wrote that 20 years ago, it was a pretty notional idea anybody could be their own brand to pick up the money on advertisements and do the work of projecting an image of oneself that today because of social media, everybody that has computer access has the capacity to market themselves and market an idea of themselves to think about what is my brand. I have a group of students like first of all we talked about how this even though theyve grown up with this idea it is a relatively new idea the case he would have looked at if you were a man 30 years ago to say to a 15yearold kid not only would you want to be when you grow up but what is your brand and what does it to separate your soft from the idea to have that info does that do to friendships and relationships and unpack this because they know more about social media than i do. They are teaching me all the time and then the latest phase of this is connected to the fact we are living our lives online and a sort of constant performance of our personal brand is that the
Tech Industry<\/a> sees data as the new whale as it is often repeated as the bigger mining all the information that we are sharing. We are not getting any part of it and we are not paid for the idea that that we are providing for free so we are looking at all these questions around surveillance and surveillance capitalism, so its interesting to see once again to see how much has changed since i wrote that now quaint book. Host let me frame the question with the original new deal. Guest sure, and i think that theres inspiration to be taken in the original new deal and very important warnings to heed m from that era because so many people were excluded from protection under the fdrs new deal. For the works that were excluded it is also true that the
United States<\/a> transformed itself at a speed and scale for this compromise to the kind of speed and scale of change should we need to embrace if we are going to lower emissions in line with what the scientists are telling us. A year ago the
Intergovernmental Panel<\/a> on
Climate Change<\/a> are the foremost gathering of scientific experts who advise the government on the state of
Climate Science<\/a> and issued the report a a year ago saying we nd to cut the global emissions in half on a mere 12 years which is now 11 years. It would require professional transformation in virtually every aspect of society, energy, transformation, agriculture,
Building Construction<\/a> and so there are not many planes in history in which you can say this is a time we saw this kind of scale of transformation. When you have americans planted
Victory Gardens<\/a> in getting 40 of their use of the garden, basil factories transformed themselves very rapidly, but the new deal is another era which is less topdown and which is why i think it is a useful historical precedent. During the new era you saw america electrified with more than 10 million americans directly employed. We found all kinds of public infrastructures in the schools, libraries, reservoir and much of ythe public insured to go infrasucture today as part of theno new deal. Another that is quite relevant thinking about the
Green New Deal<\/a> is that conservation corps probably the most popular of the new deal programs and it is a reminder that the new deal was not only responding to an economic crisis but also in ecological crisis because of the dust bowl and the crisis of the deforestation so they sent more than 2
Million People<\/a> mostly fromop cities to the camps in rural parts of the
United States<\/a> andpl thats kind of scale is imported into the kind of thing we need to do to pull carbon out of the atmosphere. In the book you write the following quote what makes it so difficult for many of us to grasp is thato we live in a culture of perpetual present that we are shaping with our actions. Guest im trying to make visible the
Economic System<\/a>s and the relatively new economic and social models born of the particular kind of capitalism we have had since the reagan era which has been all of the deregulation, privatization and generating the individual consumers equally think with democracy and good good life thatch has produced an accelerad culture that offend people point to and say its just human nature we cant deal with a crisis like
Climate Change<\/a> because we are too selfish, too individualistic, we think to shortterm and it requires us to have a longer timeframe and to put the collective good ahead of something you might want just right now to satisfy the individual urge. So, there has been a lot written that has made this human nature argument about why we will never respond to this crisis. What i find when im talking about what we need to do in the face of the crisis i find that thege biggest obstacle that we e up against is not
Climate Change<\/a> denial or the lack of technology or understanding of what needs to be done. Its really the sense of doom that we as human beings are incapable of doing the things that are necessary. And thats why i think it is important to draw on these historical precedents that even if they are not exactly the kind of thing we need toe do now, thy do show that there are different ways and in the lifespan of people alive today, people were able to t think longer term and were able to put the collective good ahead of their individual desires and there are
Indigenous People<\/a> in
Northh America<\/a> who teach their children to think seven generations into the future and seven generations into their past. What im trying to do i guess this problem applies the sort of appeals to human nature that we hear a lot of and saying well actually, that is equating a particular relatively recent form of deregulated consumer capitalism with the idea of what it means to be human, and while we cant change the law of nature, we actually can change the system that we did create ourselves if they are threatening life on earth and in fact we need to do that. Im not saying its easy. Im just saying its possible. Host a 7yearold son who went apple pickingng yesterday. You moved around a lot though. For those who dont know naomi klein, just bend a minute to tell your life story than we will get to phone calls. Guest just a minute . Nlaughter] so, i was born in canada, in montreal and my parents are american. My parents were peace activists in the 1960s. My father didnt want toam go to vietnam and he had to choose atween jail and canada and like many of his peers, he chose canada so we moved to montreal and later back to the
United States<\/a> for a few years when i was very young. I was for a or 5yearsold and they decided they liked canada sbetter. Yi sometimes say that we left because of the war but we stayed for the universal public healthcare. [laughter] and my mother is a documentary filmmaker now retired. She worked for the
National Film<\/a> board of canada at the first womens film studio so she made some really for the feminist movement so i grew up with political parents. My father worked in the canadian healthcare system. He was involved in doing things like bringing midwives and the hospitals and big advocate for natural childbirth. Hes a. Family doctor, also retired. I wouldnt say i grew up in a really radical i have friends that have really serious radical parents and were homeschooled and their parents really walk the talk. I kind of grew up between worlds with their values i suppose, but going to regular schools in the 1980s. So i felt very pulled between the culture of the 1980s which was very shiny and appealing to me and my home life where my parents would say why do you want to hang out with your friends at the mall what is there at the mall why would you ever want to do
Something Like<\/a> that . Maybe thats why i wrote no logo in my 20s. Our conversation right you have been patient. Welcome to the conversation. Nice to speak with you. My main problem with the whole thing is the amount of energy that is required. Its impossible and the technologies just are not goingn to be there to this pie in the sky type of thinking. We need fossil fuels. There is no doubt about it for the foreseeable future. The other thing was just the environment itself. How do you explain the little ice age 10,000 years host thinks we will get a response. Guest can i answer . [laughter] thanks for the question. So im going to urge you to look up the work of
Mark Jacobson<\/a> at stanford university. Hes he is a professor of enging whos got a big team doing a really specific research about how effective is it with the existing technology to get to 100
Renewable Energy<\/a>, very rapidly for electricity first and transportation afterwards in line with what scientists are telling us we need to do. Thereve been huge breakthroughs in
Battery Storage<\/a> and price breakthroughs as well in the concept of
Renewable Energy<\/a> so i would disagree. I think it is possible to do. Like i said, im not saying that its easy, but i think the barriers are much more political than they are technological and that is concisely with a panel on
Climate Change<\/a> said when they set the target of halving the global emissions in 12 years in a faithful report. And i want to stress that drew on 6,000 sources and
Peer Reviewed<\/a> scienc science so itst just what a oneoff paper. Ike a oneoff paper. It was coauthored by almost 100 authors and reviewers. So, it is a stateoftheart ncscience. They said we can meet these targets with existing technolo technology. The very air is political. And in terms of the reason for the little ice age and i think heere were a few factors. One is there is a
High Altitude<\/a> volcano and this is why sometimes you have in my opinion quite frightening gao engineers talking about how one way we can deal with climate disruption is by imitating a
High Altitude<\/a> volcano by spraying sulfur into the upper atmosphere and reflecting more of the suns rays away from earth. So, that is one of the main reasons behind the little ice age and another reason that i do talk about this in the bucket for this followed the genocide against
Indigenous People<\/a> in the americas and theres been some new science looks at how this huge loss of life of many millions of people in the americas led to the reeducation and that i was part of it as well. Norwalk connecticut, steve, go ahead please. If you could turn the volume down and go ahead with your questions. Good morning, naomi. Can you heare me . Yes, they sure can. Guest i can. Caller okay, good. First, lets eliminate batteries. To make electric power to go into a battery, using fossil fuel you dont eliminate one molecule of co2. So i cant believe you wouldnt know that. But you evidently dont know that. I cannot believe that all these senators running p for president never mentioned
Hydrogen Fuel<\/a> cells which have been to be the only remedy to eliminate the co2 because there is no co2 when you use
Hydrogen Fuel<\/a> cells, period. Its that simple. So, ive sent a few messages on your facebook numerous times. I dont know if youve actually read this or just dismiss it or what you do, but anyway,y, you never mentioned
Hydrogen Fuel<\/a> cells. None of the candidates mentioned
Hydrogen Fuel<\/a> cells. Its the only remedy. I am going to have t a meeting with jeffries soon i hope to discuss this and the title of my book is reparations because what im suggesting is that a bear with me to be over a
Million People<\/a> necessary to do the work to completely change from fossil fuel electric power to
Hydrogen Fuel<\/a> cell electric power. Host we will get a response. Thank you for the question and comment. I think the reason why he isnt getting a response from any of the candidates isnt that the ideas are not being taken it is absolutely true that
Renewable Power<\/a> with
Battery Power<\/a> does radically reduce emissions which is not to say that there are not environmental costs to any
Technology Including<\/a> the local environment of the impact of mining for the rare metals for solar power and wind power which is why in the book i talk about the fact that we cant think of this as simply flipping a switch from fossil fuels to renewables and
Everything Else<\/a> is saying the same. We do have a real problem of overconsumption particularly with a sort of disposable mindset in the wealthy world and there is going to have to be a we are going to have to look at what was said at the
United Nations<\/a> the fairytale infinite growth, so we are and i say we, i am talking about the 20 wealthiest people on the planet who are responsible for 70 of the emissions. We are going to have to consume less. It doesnt mean that we are going to live in misery at the level of the average european according to
Kevin Anderson<\/a> who is generally recognized as one of the worlds leading
Emission Reduction<\/a> experts, and this is why in the context of the
Green New Deal<\/a> it is so important to be looking at the areas where we can afford to expand like healthcare, childcare, the card, areas that are already low carbon and can be made even more low carbon so there are going to have to be some
Lifestyle Changes<\/a> for people who are over consuming but that doesnt mean that its all contraction. Host i want to follow up to that. A 16yearold from sweden, why do you think that her voice out of so many has designated . I think that its a complicated question to be honest with you. I think that there are many voices as well who should be resonating and who have been trying to get the worlds attention for a very long time. You know, ive been going to the un
Climate Summit<\/a> for about a decade now, and there is an incredibly powerful voices coming from the marshall islands. There was an incredible speech made at the
United Nations<\/a> in 2014 with a woman from the marshall islands, a young woman named kathy who wrote a poem to her nine monthold baby and she read it to the assembled country representatives and it was an incredible speech that should have gone as viable as any of her speeches. So i think i point this out there have been other moments like a few years later when a tyson hit the philippines at the very moment that there was a un summit happening on
Climate Change<\/a> and the representative from the philippines didnt know whether his family was safe or not and he broke down crying in front of the entire assembly. Anthat should have gone as viral as any of the speeches. So to be perfectly honest with you, i think that thereir is an issue around the fact that she is a white girl from sweden who thats part of why her voice voh and others that are on the frontline of this crisis who are living it and for whom it feels x. Essential as it does to her have been ignored. I also think that shes absolutely remarkable. I have so much respect for her. I think she is a. Prophetic voie and these other voices have spoken abouthe before like kathy as well and i can point to many others. Remarkable and they thinthink there is something abt her that is so clearly not that shes performing for anyone. She isnt looking for anyone to like her. Coming back to maybe what we were talking earlier. We live in a cloture where everyone is sort of constantly performing a version of themselves. Everybody is interested in being famous and in promoting themselves. Interested. Be less i can tell you i know her. She is 100 focused on the science and she talks about having been diagnosed with us burgers, she said im not interested in your social games as somebody on the autism spectrum, and so i think that therethere is something about w uninterested she is in our opinion of her that makes her a very trusted messenger for a lot of people. Obviously she faces a lot of attacks and is very clear minded about why she is being attacked by the likes of donald trump and
Vladimir Putin<\/a> and not to mention armies of trolls. Its because shes part of building a
Global Movement<\/a> that isis growing with exponential l eed. There were 7
Million People<\/a> who participated in the
World Climate<\/a> strikes over an eightday period. That is unprecedented in the history ofs the planet. So, shes part of an
Amazing Movement<\/a> and would be the first person to say its not about me. Its about a movement of young people coming together. Host the figure back to the earlier point. Using fossil fuels are not the sole driver of
Climate Change<\/a>. They are the biggest. You also write an incremental approach will not work and my question is can we afford the
Green New Deal<\/a> with a price tag into the billions of dollars . Guest it isndollars . Guest it isnt just fossil fuels, its also agriculture another major driver. So, can we afford it . Thereve been studies about what it would actually cost to stay on the road we are on and not try to avert catastrophic levels of performing. The road we are on the leads to warming of about 4 degrees celsius. If we continue with business as usual, and that means just doing what we are doing now which is nothing and making the problem worse, and that is exactly what donald trump has been doing and brazil is committed to doing. W that leads to somewhere between four to 6 degrees. That isnt compatible with anything you would describe as organized civilization. It would threaten every single coastal city. Cithe price tag well before the end of the century. We need to recognize that a lot of the estimates about when things are going to start to get really, really serious have underestimated the speed with which things started to unravel. We were not expecting to boost the arctic as rapidly as we are losing it. Lets remember that we just september was the hottest september on record. July was the hottest month ever recorded. June was the hottest june ever recorded. Its happening really, really fast. And so, you ask over with tying period. There are different estimates. I would say in the tying period alive on the planet we would be seeing absolutely catastrophic levels of warming under the business of the usual model. And there actually isnt like when you start crossing out what it would mean to lose new york city or shanghai, there is not enough money on the planet to cost that out. So, i can make an argument to you that it is a bargain to invest in the
Green New Deal<\/a> which is yes, expensive but compared to what we would tape later it ipaylater it is much c. There is also something that is a morally reprehensible about making just a financial argument because we are talking about hundreds of millions of lives here that would be lost if we do not embrace the speed of change that is required in depth change that is required so yes it is expensive. And its also in my view a moral imperative and doing nothing is aeven more. Host poll from louisville kentucky you were next. Go ahead with naomi klein. Caller good afternoon. My question is about the closure energy. Anybody that looks at replacing fossil fuel, the majority of them, realizes the only possible way to do it would be to go with the generation three or four which has never killed a person on earth. Guest where are they, where are these generation three and four
Nuclear Plants<\/a> . Caller i think they are kind of developmental guest they are not out there is the point. Its a notional technology and thats why it hasnt killed anyone. P guest caller we have a lot of them running now. Guest often envies discussions, a future form of nuclear is held up both what is being proposed is the same old
Nuclear Technology<\/a> that does have high risks. E i think that im going to refer people once again to the research that is very clear about the fact that we can do this with
Renewable Energy<\/a> and there are many benefits of doing that with renewables over nuclear including the fact nuclear is a lot more expensive. It is prone to capitalism and corruption. We have seen this again and again. And what is great about
Renewable Energy<\/a> is that it lends itself to a decentralized form of ownership so rather than having the few monopolistic players as we do today, whether they are in fossil fuel or nuclear we have an amazing opportunity to have a much more democratically controlled energy grid which is built around the fact the air and the sun is everywhere so we can have micro grids and community controlled energy and
Energy Cooperatives<\/a> and the revenues can stay in communities to pay for other services and we can kill two birds with one stone where we have a fair economy and more resources as well as geiving ourselves to zero emissions. Who are the disaster tscapitalists . Guest in that book i make an argument that we have seen in the aftermath of economic shocks and large natural disasters a certain theory of political change which i call the shock doctrine is in the sense of panic in the public that necessarily follows the war to push through policies he wouldnt be able to push through under normal circumstances because people are focused on their daily emergencies and we are also seeing a sort of infrastructure of people moving rein who want to make quick cash so the battle for pure paradise the aftermath of
Hurricane Maria<\/a> before it even made landfall we were hearing talk of how this was a great opportunity to privatize the energy grid and it was already the site of an economic crisis which was being used to impose all kinds of regulation. So puerto rico had already become a tax haven and this was a way that it was used during that crisis before
Hurricane Maria<\/a> hit to attract the
High Net Worth<\/a> individuals come to puerto rico, change your
Mailing Address<\/a> you dont have to spend the whole year here. It was attractive to the
Financial Sector<\/a> and in the crypto currency sector because they didnt have to pay all kinds of taxes they would have had to pay on the mainland for the disaster capitalists in the battle for paradise, a lot of them are these entrepreneurs the thlocated in the aftermath to take advantage of cheap real estate and the fact that the crypto currency gaming wouldnt be taxed when they converted to regular currency if they did so. Host explain what is a communal recovery. Guest this has been a question ivthequestion ive bef since i wrote the shock doctrine which is a strategy we see again and again by wealthy players in the aftermath of disasters. I begin with
Hurricane Katrina<\/a> which is when i first started writing about
Climate Change<\/a> a decade and a half ago. When i was in new orleans, it was still partially underwater but there were already real estate speculators talking about what an opportunity it was to get rid of
Public Housing<\/a> projects and build condominiums and a lot of that happened in the aftermath. It was used by educational onchip endorser wanted to pange schools and pretty soon new orleans had a charter heavy
School System<\/a> in the united stateunitedstates so this raised a lot of local activists in new orleans what is the alternative to the disaster capitalism. How can the communitys response to the crisis in so many cases points to the need for the solution to the fourth their vision for how the community should be rebuilt in the face of the disasters that will make us less disaster prone so thats what i mean by collective response to disasters and weve seen that in puerto rico quite powerfully where that little book the battle for paradise all of the royalties go to a coalition of groups in puerto rico came together in the aftermath of
Hurricane Maria<\/a> and anits called the peoples platform for how puerto rico should actually be rebuilt and respond to its vulnerability to climate disruption. S in this very moment being sold off to developers and other private interest. Like we talked about they want decentralized
Renewable Energy<\/a> by community soli theres varios proposals for that. Thats the kind of thing i mean and on the largescale a new deal. Which is a way of responding to our collective
Climate Crisis<\/a> in a way that battles systemic inequalities on every front. Wa lets go to edward in new jersey, you are next on cspan2. Very well. Since you discovered what i was going to talk about i just wanted to say in advocate for thee future and the disconnect about social energy that goes into invading iraq on one teeny little picture and being scared of all the stupid things, how do we cut through the corporate noise about the things theyre telling us we should be afraid of when its a one in 50000 chance that you could be killed by a terrorist and yet we cant be scared of biodiversity or anything that you are covering. And thank you for your work. Thank you. It is a great way of puttingi it. It seems possible to harnessed huge amounts of
Public Wealth<\/a> to wage a war and as that color mentioned ready dubious evidence that was later disproven and yet were demanding more from a report with sources with articles is seen as not good enough for us and were still waiting for the evidence to come in. And it has to do with who the
Climate Crisis<\/a> threatens. The fact that this is if we were to take the science seriously, whether biodiversity or climate disruption and certainly interrelated. It would mean a lot of wealthy people in the
Global Economy<\/a> would have to make some very serious sacrifices which is why they want to change the subject to it all been about whetherif r not you will be able to eat hamburgers or not. This is about the fact that exxonmobil is very threatened, shallow oil is very threatened, cargo is threatened, these are the most powerful businesses in the
Global Economy<\/a> and on the continued extraction and exploitation of fossil fuel and there are other ways of organizing a business but theyre not as profitable. Its not as profitable to have a solar business than oil and gas business. So we have had deliberate misinformation on the airwaves and in print we had the fossil fuel
Companies Funding<\/a> the
Disinformation Campaign<\/a> that i would argue weve heard evidence of on the show. And it has slowed us down. Weve lost wonders we will never get back because oft it. And now we are in a moment where regular people are declaring an emergency from below. That is what were seen with the claimant strikes and that greta started with her loan act in front of the
Swedish Parliament<\/a> just a little bit more than a year ago. At this point, she was 15 years old and learned about
Climate Change<\/a> at school, watched a lot of naked under nature documentaries and learned about diameters to the law, all of these crises and looked around and by her own telling, the world did not make sense preach she said if this were true when everybody talk about all the time. If we were destabilizing our one and only home when all of our politician be focused on this all the time. Would it be the front page everyday and everywhere she looked people were talking about anything else. And i think thats pretty much true even though we have a little bit of improvement in the climate coverage. She decided to declare her own emergency. As a student, the one thing she had power over, the one thing she was able to disrupt business as usual is to not do the one thing that every kid is expected to do, so she stopped going to school. She stopped going is goned friy and more people came and people in different cities including new york city started having their own claimant strikes and within a very short period, she started in august last year by september of this year, just a little bit more than a year there were seven ilhan people participated. This is people saying we will not wait for politicians to say this is an emergency we will declare and put pressure on politicians to follow. In some
National Governments<\/a> have declared a state of aremergency whether they are following that up with the policies that that would demand, we will see. I think its click enter completely redrawney the map in the scale of change that is debated within the democratic party. It is nothing like what we were talking about a few years ago when there waswi a debate about cap and trade versus a carbon tax. We are talking about who is spending how many trillions of dollars on their
Green New Deal<\/a> plan. And how many jobs can be created and how quickly we can move and whose targets are more ambitious. This is not just because these politicians have seen the light, its because theres a social movement that is putting pressure on the politicians to up their game. It was very animated in september. How do you approach writing about, what is the naomi klein style . They were seven years between my first three books, and each of those books i could think of a thesis even though i did not get a phd. I was lucky enough with my first book in the fact that it sold the way it did. And it put me in a privileged position where i was able to get an advanced and walk off several years to do research and to put together
Research Team<\/a> and to build barriers around
Everything Else<\/a> in my life because i get speaking requests and things like that. So i hauled up in the woods in
British Columbia<\/a> where my family lives, not a bad place to haul it. Its a very beautiful place. But it was quite isolated. The place knows that you cannot get to without taking a very and driving for an hour and its quite isolated. And it makes it easy to say no to things when people ask you to come out and do things. So usually spent three years on the research into on the writing. And when im writing a book its kind of all that i do. I turn off the internet and i use those because i easily distracted. Before there were apps like that i put
Parental Controls<\/a> on my computer so anytime i tried to go online for more than one hour i was allowed a day id be confronted with a teddy bear and taint all of his writing the book. Thats how i read books. Your next book is what . I dont know. This process that im describing does require to write a book with 70 pages, it does require removing oneself for a few years and this is not a moment where i feel like i can remove myself from the political debate and i think these are such fateful years and we are particularly leading up to the election that im not going to be pushed away, i just did a book that i hope is contributing to the debate and why we need transformational
Climate Action<\/a>s and why we need y marry the struggle of omissions and the need to build a fair economy and make the argument for why that does not slow us down but speed this up because people are hurting so much economically if we dont bring together the people will resist it. What they did with the yellow best movement. But im really focused on 2020 have to say and i think it is going to be a little while before i feel i hide myself away in the forest as much as im drawn to it. We will get to that in a moment. John joining us from new york. You are on with naomi klein. Thank you. Thank you very much naomi for anyour work. It is only going to get tougher isnt it. Im actually calling my interest isto in nature and even with the solar stuff and this, the other gentlemen mentioned its not going to be enough but its the glass it is really a waste of time and experience. 99 is worth it but the main thing i want to mention is called hidden nature and its a startling insight of victor, its written by
Alec Bartholomew<\/a> and he developed the inclusion and capture by the nazis and the people he works with both his craft and everything. But its based out of the stream, when you drink out of the stream you kill it. E when the stream grows around e corner, hes on the inside and outside of the curve the one side is negative and the other side is positive. In the electromagnetics in that water that keeps nutritions and everything that would not be normally is not just the movement of the water its a fact that the water is actually alive and i think there is a lot of answers in nature but you have to step back and realize, i am 73yearold combat but, it probably took me 25 years to get ptsd which is pretty much a negative response to a reflex. Thank you we will get a response. Thank you for the question in a one of our listeners on cspan radio. It is a really important observation. And i think weinre are seeing my
Solutions Coming<\/a> from paying attention to the
Natural World<\/a> and in nature which is a paradigm shift from the kind of dominance and seeing our role to dominate the
Natural World<\/a> and to bend it to our will. And that root force engineering behind the damning of great rivers in the fossil fuel economy that we could pick up life, barry and burnett. Antenna up into the atmosphere and not worry about what happened and tell ourselves we had conquered nature. That was the whole promise of the fossil fuel age. You are no longer bossed around by no mother nature. You are the boss, if you read the marketing materials of the first commercial scheme inches, it was all about you are now the boss, you dont have to wait for the winds to blow to sell your ship, you can sail it whenever you want. You dont have to build your factory because theysh seem to e powered by waterwheels and you can build your factories wherever you want. In the other idea you can master the winds and waves and what
Climate Change<\/a> tellsls us, maybe were not the boss after all because the carbon we emitted over these hundreds of years of the
Industrial Age<\/a> have been accumulating in the atmosphere and now comes a response, the response takes the forms of
Hurricane Dorian<\/a> over in the bahamas for 48 hours unprecedented for them to behave that way and whether its the storms in the heat waves and were up against forces that are far more powerful. And i think the message of this, everything in nature, every action has a reaction. Fossil fuels have allowed us to tell her selves a fairytale about the idea that we now read the drivers seat and off the wheel and dominating and there would be no downside to this. So i think the beauty of
Renewable Energy<\/a>, it does put us back in dialogue with the its aboutld and power of nature and not just bending and breaking it. The first time and every month we go in depth with a leading author in our guest this month was naomi klein, you can join us on twitter booktv or on facebook booktv. I am on twitter at naomi a klein and i dont really do any other social media. I sometimes stay on instagram that im on twitter, i have the algorithm of hate i dont need the algorithm of envy. Lets go to tennessee. Have you noticed there is an activist group over in the uk that was pretty empty rated, apparently they had a warehouse with signs and what have you and authorities to prevent them from doing a protest and rated them over the weekend, im a republican, im a conservative, me because this is like going into a church and taking my antiabortion signs i note happening in england but there resting them for conspiracy for public nuisance. Do you ever, on that . Thank you for that i appreciate your nonpartisan solidarity. The group is called
Extinction Rebellion<\/a> in their fairly young group, they have not been around for that long and they engage in nonviolent civil disobedience and try to express the fact that were in a
Climate Emergency<\/a>, the group demanding more from the government to clear out
Climate Emergency<\/a> as we were talking about earlier and they have shut down bridges, roads but they are completely nonviolent group and they were planning on kicking off a new wave of civil disobedience starting on september 7. This is a wave that i agree for a peaceful assembly. 11 years ago the new yorker where they profiled you and set the following, naomi klein is not interested in making the left part of mainstream. Instead she wants to convince the left that it does not need the mainstream. That was 11 years ago. I dont know that i agreed with that then, i think my goal is to move the center and thats better. It depends on how you define the mainstream. If you describe as hypocrisy and self described. Siseries opinion makers who pole the parameters of acceptable discourse. I certainly have beenac telling people that we should ignore them and we should allow herself guided by what we know is right and what is needed in the science tells us what we have to do and we need to move where the center is in the range of policies under discussion and sorts of things that
Bernie Sanders<\/a> and
Elizabeth Warren<\/a> are putting on the table it wouldve been unthinkable ten years ago. So there is a transformation. I would never tell people they should not worry about the mainstream because thats where most people are. But i think of them fairly consistent with hypocrisy of what you canna can on site. It points out that your brother was a good activist child and you are not. Is that fair . My brother was a young climate stricter in high school but he was focused on nuclear war he was part of the
Nuclear Movement<\/a> which my parents were a part of any started a group in high school and he was part of the generation that would wake up in the middle the night terrified of a nuclear war and its still terrifying and i guess for me and my family dynamics, he has definitely had good activist thing covered so i was just a more social kid and interested in my friends and having fun. It wasnt that i did not care about fairness or didnt care about politics, i didnt care about organized politics. I was very concerned withal racism, sexism, things that i perceived to be unfair. But i wasnt a joiner, i did not join groups and things like that. And its probably why i became a writer. We will leave it there. Laramie and wyoming. You hear him argue the economic crisis and the
Great Depression<\/a> was caused by government interference in americas premarket economy. What are her thoughts about the arguments in the midst of the robert baron in the new look of business in america. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope i do not offend anybody but i did not see that so i cannot recall. Im not familiar with his work specifically but im familiar with the arguments that created the great crash of 1929 and it was not the deregulation of markets is virtually everybody believes and theres a smallish group of premarket is that the problem with the regulation. With
Government Intervention<\/a> as opposed to deregulation, im not convinced by that i think the breaking up ofan the banks, undr fdr was a big part of stabilizing thenc financial secr so i do not agree with that. No is not enough. You begin with one word on the election of donald trump. Shocked. [laughter] yeah, yeah, no is not enough, you ask me however, rated books, no is not enough is definitely not following that pattern of taking years and years to write a book. I wrote it in over seven months after trumps selection. And i wrote it because i was really terrified having research the ways in which shocks, in my book the shock doctrine that create a state of exception in a state of destruction where it becomes possible to get away with all kinds of things precisely because everybody is trying to get their foot in. And when trump that word shock was used again and again, after the election because it shocked so many of us. S. It defined all the polls, so many expectations, it came as a huge shock to such an untraditional political player. And i was really worried of the e ea as trump a bolt out of the blue that if we expected the narrative of him of an interruption that was everything understood about america and i want to stress this is not everybodys reaction, there was africanamericans, women who said imre not surprised, my lid experience in this country, would tell me and indicate there is a pretty big appetite for this message that trump is peddling and we were not surprised by the fact that he would. Markets rule, money is what matters in whites batter better than the rest. What i was trying to do with those lines in the book these are some of the messages that you get explicitly or implicitly from the
Trump Presidency<\/a> and the argument that these are widespread ideas and he is a logical conclusion, a lot of trends which is not to say he is not a new iteration but we had been worshiping at the altar in generating billionaires just because theyrest billionaires d lifting them to the status of gods, and the argument in the book with the capitalist infrastructure in the
Gates Foundation<\/a>, the
Global Initiative<\/a> that has super wealthy individuals with social problems and we can fix this without government, and the
Gates Foundation<\/a> which pivots xptes knowledge in the computer year to him being an expert on global health, reproduction, agriculture in africa. Just because youre good at one thing doesnt mean youre good at everything. But we live in a culture that assumes that just becoming a billionaire you are treated as if you know everything. In the argument i make in the book among other arguments, that created a context for somebody like donald trump who can stand before the
American People<\/a> and say i have no experience in government whatsoever but ime really rich and the fact of my richness and the fact that iran this company that i claim to be successful and at least play a very successful businessman on a tv show that you all watch, that is why you should vote for me. When we cal are not very focuse. And there is a gap between events and her narrative about evthe event, if you dont have a story that explains the event in your in that state of dislocation in shock. So we can protect ourselves from a lot of what is happening behind the shock. And there is actually a pretty clear pattern to what he has been doing on economics. No president has deregulated as much of the american economy, environmental standard as donald trump. Nobody has given more to millionaires and billionaires and tax cuts than donald trump. So in the buc book i call a corporate coup and this is the story that we often miss and were so focused on what the shocking point donald trump is done. And what is the latest tweet. I think that is why he tweaked so much. It is a constant look over their strategy. He may have taken a little too far and he may pay the price for that. In the book you make the point that the trump is on the top ten of the
Luxury Brands<\/a> of hotels in the world and you begin by talking about election night, donald trump in midtown manhattan both of the nominees here in new york city, your half your reaction, t where were you and what was yr reaction . It i was awarded the sydney peace prize and i was in australia for the better part of the month and i was in research and made a documentary the
Great Barrier<\/a> reef which had best experienced in massive die off in half of it is dead so it was combining the speaking i was doing withea new research and se political organizing and i would actually get a meeting in australia with a group of organization who is interested in putting together a coalition to push for an australian
Green New Deal<\/a> with a new deal in australia and there was trade unions there and trade
Union Leaders<\/a> and eviden of bitternest activists and organizers all in this room. And we were having a forwardlooking meeting about how we do this, how do we get our forwardlooking agenda together and this has been my focused since i wrote the changes everything breaks in the middle of the meeting everybody phone started vibrating. Because here in new york the
Election Results<\/a> were coming in in the evening but it was morning and australia when the results started coming in and ia became clear that it looked like trump was going to win in this meeting which is all about imperative to embrace
Climate Action<\/a> just faded as everybody realized that we were in a new category. Everyone went away to find bigger screens and their phones to watches in realtime. Vancouverim washington. We go ahead. Hi, thanks for taking my question. I read a book called plan b and it was written i lester brown was retired since then. He was talking about mobilizing a wartime mobilization to address
Climate Change<\/a> and i wonder if you read that or are familiar with his work and if so what influence does he have on the current
Green New Deal<\/a> . Thank you. I am familiar with his work in the literature that drawls on world war ii as a historical president that shows us that is possible to retool factories at an incredible clip and the stories are going from producing cars, fighter jets overnight anh theres also many parallels with the way the people changed, i mentioned
Victory Garden<\/a> and 20 of americans were getting their use from
Victory Garden<\/a> and americans and british people also radically change the way they moved around after world war because all the fuel needed to be conserved for the war effort andsu so leisure driving was not on, people drove very little compared to the way they were driving before. And increased by more than 80 in
Public Transit<\/a> use. In this country more than 90 in canada and there are really important parallels and
Bernie Sanders<\/a> talks about the parallels as well, it is informing the debate and i think we are now calling the
Green New Deal<\/a> is not a new idea, it has been floating around the
Climate Movement<\/a> for a long time and the reason why i think the president of the new deal is a little bit more useful than the world war ii president is that this was topdown, and i dont want federal government to have that much power. So i think we need a model that is more decentralized it empowers governmentsth more. But the truth iss an argument this, we actually need to look at the whole era to look for president s of this rapid change, the new deal and the transition to the wartime mobilization in the
Marshall Plan<\/a>. As examples of times when resources were marshaled and people understood the threat various threats whether the
Great Depression<\/a> and in the case of the
Marshall Plan<\/a> the u. S. Is worried that a lot of countries were falling under control of the soviet union and they wanted to rebuild western europe and away that would make socialism less appealing. And mixed economies with strong safety net, strong rights and they felt like we cannot just have deregulated capitalism, it has to be the mixed economy that has a much stronger social protection where people will go fullblown socialist and will lose all to the associates. Was there a book or an author that influenced or changed your thinking on any subject . Yeah. So many books. I dont know where tonl begin bt certainly when i was writing this changes everything, reading silent spring was really important. Indigenous thinkers as we talked about and i dedicate this book on fire to a man name arthur who is an important indigenous leader in offering canada and he was former chief and a mentor of mine and wrote a couple of books and he published the important reconciliation manifesto. At the centrality of land rights, many including siding
Climate Change<\/a> that individualist landd and knowlee is very important as we are going to rise to this challenge. The book that has the biggest impact on me recently iss a novel, the over story which are told everybody they have to read. Because . Its magnificent its a modern novel, i read a lot of fiction that helps me think about the work that im doing around climate and the behavior is one of the books about
Climate Change<\/a> but her most recent novel is underappreciated called im sheltered because she is really getting at what it means to live in a house that is falling apart. Her knowledge is the physical health but its sort of a minister fiction of the planet itself and i would recommend that. But the over story is just magnificent in the science of forest and understanding how trees communicate with each other and live in communities is one of the most beautiful descriptions of activism that ive ever read. I dont think activists get a fair shake in our society, people who really do put the collective good ahead of their own freedom and he writes about people who feel so passionate e out protecting the forest that they engage in direct action, move into trees, live entries to keep them from being cut down. And he writes about them with a lot of respect and compassion and is beautiful to see that. You mentioned your husband who played on your web act when youre writing a book. Its your editor . Is he tough . Does he proof your book . Did you find a typo . [laughter] yes, e earlier on he would edite more and he he reads almost everything before it goes out and i added him as well. And we have collaborated and he directed a film. When i was writing this changes everything, he made a film to go with the book in a way but the projects worked in parallel, we e a experimenting to write book and then making a filma about it if youre going to make the film in which i did with the shock doctrine and theres something a little bit funny about that because youre necessarily retracing your front steps so you dont actually have the same sense of discovery that you have a new doing research and being changed by your research. You are mimicking the sense of discovery for the camera. For me i never want to go backwards i want to go forward. So he was making films after i read the book and we had it was tough to fill around the shock doctrine. So we decided to do
Something Different<\/a> and i was writing the book and he was making the film and that meant we were th both busy so he had less time to edit and he had for h previous books. Hes a great editor. Cokie roberts said the biggest challenge writing a book with her husband robert. I believe you. , it was hard enough to make the film and book together, im not sure i definitely im not sure i could writef a book with anyone but i cannot do it with ai husband because i value our lives too much. Mike from new york your neck. I would l like to know where are all the people going to work in the future, it seems as lost for decades man has done away with middleclass jobs and personally i think the lack of jobs is the root of all evil. Thank you. Thats a great question. I think we have i think its not exactly a lack of jobs, its a lack of jobs that pay salaries that can support families, provide benefits and a sense of security there is pretty low on appointment right now. But there is an epidemic of underemployment and a lott of people are having multiple jobs. There is a contradiction or people who support the president want to claim everything issu great economy because his low unemployment. But that does not explain why theres so much economic stress and why people are falling into poverty and why theres an epidemic of depression and addiction and clearly not everything is going well with the kind of jobs people are getting. It is clear that we invest in
Renewable Energy<\/a> and efficiency and public transportation, we create more jobs and invest in fossil fuels and theres already more jobs than renewables then there are employed in the fossil fuel sector. But, we have not made sure thate the jobs pay the same salaries that people had working at an auto plant for exxon. These are good jobs. Although there getting worse which is why we have a strike with the workers. This is in the original green resolution with ocasiocortez, they say that workers who are moving from high carbon jobs to these new jobs and renewables and energy efficiency, need to maintain salary levels and benefit leve levels, that is really key. Another part, we have a lot of jobs in the
Service Sector<\/a> care economyin the teaching or saying overwhelmingly womens work and because its in womens work and they have not been any women callers, it is devalued in our economy so if there are women out there, i encourage you to call. I am lonely. [laughter] we are going to hear from mark after this i noticed the same thing. Hello. No offense tom. None taken. I have to blame my mother for that. I want to thank you for your clarity of thought and communication on the crisis over lifetime. And also ive heard you speak on youtube and other venues about crwhat is sacred and the demarcation that happens in the new age as we come more scientifically based and got away from older more religious ways of thinking, can we separate the supernatural and superstitious from the sacred and come up with a new vision of what we will see in the future. And a new
Life Expectancy<\/a> and a clean new deal for our future and particularly her kids and grandkids. Thank you very much for your time. What a great big question. I think the don of the tiscientific resolution in the
Industrial Age<\/a>, there was a shift in the view away from seeing the
Natural World<\/a> as a. And i appreciate the color, using the word sacred because i dont think is just about religion or organized religion and once again its a relatively new phenomenon to not see the
Natural World<\/a> as sacred as a little bit scary and alive and deserving of our respect. Pretty much every other cosmology in the modern
Industrial Age<\/a> saw the
Natural World<\/a> that way. When you do see the
Natural World<\/a> that way youre more careful, you dont want to piss off the gods, you dont want to make too big of a mess. So i think that is draining away of the sacred and this is part of the reason why i love the over story because its a reenchanting of the
Natural World<\/a> that a lot of people are drawn to, crave, understand that part of her crisis, the crisis that were in with
Climate Change<\/a> has to do with imagining the world as a machine and ourselves as engineers that made us believe we could take and take without any repercussion. So i do believe ive written this before, its not just the climate disruption and ecological crisis or an economic crisis, it really is a spiritual crisis in the narrative that were draining 16 and seeing the
Natural World<\/a> for us to dominatn which begins. It is how we ended up where we are and its going to be where older stories combined with newer ones will be part of getting us out of there. To other books in a sentence described. That is a collection of essays i wrote after the book came out, i was on the front line of debates about corporate globalization. This changes everything. , the subtitle is capitalism versus climate. And it is about the clash that we have between
Economic System<\/a> that requires expansion in order to not being crisis in the
Natural World<\/a> that requires that we contract in order to not be in crisis. Lets go to margaret in arkansas. Thank you. And thank tom for his question in naomi for her reply. This morning my phone received two alerts for flash floods in my area, i think greta is a prosthetic voice and it seems to be some religious denomination are listening and hearing and studying to know the truth and im unsure about my done nomination the southern baptist. I dont really know what their opinion is now. But some off us believe [inaudible] and to read descriptors of nature and accurately interpret them we lost part of it but i think we got the essence and will give a response. Thank you. I absolutely agree that we need faith leaders in this conversation its not just about politics and economics. We need to speak to people wholesale. Is not just organized religion but i have a chapter on fire that is very unlikely visit i took as a jewish feminist which was to the vatican after pope francis released his oncology which is an incredible document i would encourage everyone to read and like i said i would not have thought id be recommending catholic text but its an amazing text. It draws on the teaching of francis and being in the vatican and how i attended the conference about this where it was really profound debate that was happening in the catholic church, reexamining the idea that the earth is human dominion and its just here for us. And really what pope francis was saying very clearly that when nature has value in itself and that was pretty radical, that is seen as pretty radical as part of the catholic church. We need the leadership from all leaders. Your first book came out 20 years ago. If we were to sit here 20 years from now, how do you think history will judge president ea trump in this moment in history . This moment in history will depend on what we do. I think were out of crossroads. What i am worried about in this moment is not just the weather. Im not just worried about the flash flooding that the previous color mentioned or the forest fires that have ravaged part of the continent where my family is or the historic storms that are pounding the caribbean as we speak. Im worried about all of that. Thewhat scares me most is intersection of heavy weather with the rising climate and i dont think theyr unrelated. We are seeing figures emerge but also members of and in the philippines, even in india where the figures who are really good at defining a protected group and the defining and threatening others without group with
International Borders<\/a> and also as we do will trump, the socalled invading armies of others. We are seeing borders, not just in the u. S. ,
European Union<\/a> with thousands of people have been left to drown in the mediterranean. Like i said i dont think its a coincidence that these two fires are happening at the same time in the fire of climate disruption in the fire that is unmasked, i think people understand we ar entry ecologicl disruption in the space for safe human habitability is contracting. People are going to have to move and theres a couple ways we can respond to that. The danger of how we will look back on this moment 20 years from now my fear will be that this will be the moment that we decided we were only going to protect ourselves, our own and that we are entering an era where people are going to be okay with seeing an unspeakable number of people died. Or we go down another road and the other road is based on the idea that every human life has equal value, the everybody has a right to seek safety and thisics a crisis created in the rich world being felt in the poorest parts of the world and we knew each other a lot by right of being human. I hope in 20 years from now what we are seeing about this moment, this is the moment that we chose not to hoardoa but to share youo figure out how to live together into live on less land but with more generosity and more humanity. I believe it is possible, i know alternativeut the is not just climate disruption. The alternative is been the type a human that i dont think weei want to be. If the president is reelected . All i know is every waking moment for me is focused, not happening. Because we dont have another four years to spend working on wilderness to drilling and building new fortresses and unleashing more hatred against the most vulnerable. I think getting rid of trump is a moralal imperative and that means making sure the candidate emerges from the democratic primary who is a trusted messenger for standing up to corporate power, a lot being in the swamp of washington. And really seen as somebody who is going to have a different moral value. I will leave it to your viewers and listeners who best meet that criteria. Its important that they be a sharp alternative and not have a lot of baggage going into this race. This is big change ahead of us. And there are very powerful forces that are going to try to stop anybody whos advised to do the right thing. So if you look at the candidates make sure your choosing a candidate who has a very good spying and a strong appetite for taking on our figure. San francisco, john, your next with naomin, klein. It is really a pleasure to speak with you, i want to turn the conversation into my favorite subject, russia, the ukraine and the 2016 election. In the following collision with russia. And i specifically wonder where you stand on the collusion delusion part but let me just say the revolution that happened in 2014, i see it as a classical regime change operation that was run out of the state department, john mccain, victoria, the whole gang and then on top of it you have victoria and overheard conversation where she lays out the whole leadership of whos in and whos out. That is crucial because as we talk about ukraine andse the roe that is now being talked about, you have to go back and realize thatup we supported proto fasct elements in the ukraine that are still active and still strong. Jump forward to the 2016e election
Young Paul Manafort<\/a> who becomes
Trumps Campaign<\/a> manager, and the
Hillary Campaign<\/a> who is in bed with the ukrainians, joe biden et cetera. They are basically doing maneuvers to get
Paul Manafort<\/a> indicted, which he was indicted, the indictment was pulled after truck became president. Now we fastforward to hear where we have two years of mueller and the whole idea that trump was a russian puppet while even looking over every stone they cannot prove that which just goes to show it was a bunk accusation from the beginning. We need to get a response from naomi klein p thank you for the question and,. Im not sure that i agree theres absolutely nothing there. But i obviously, they do not make the case around russia. But what is going on with the crane is linked to what i was talking earlier in terms of who the candidate is that runs trump campaign. I would encourage anybody who has trouble with mr. Trump to go find a reasonable trump supporter and tell them the story, tell them the ukraine story in the biden story and why he should be impeached. And then tell me how you feel about biden. Because i dont think you can tell the story in a way in which they both dont look back. Which is not the same as saying biden has done anything illegal, he probably hasnt. And i do think that trump has committed an
Impeachable Offense<\/a> and he should be impeached and i think hes committed other offenses that he couldve been impeached for. But given that this is the one that the democrats have seemingly chosen, i think its a huge problem for biden because even if its not illegal, i keep reading these stories saying theres no evidence of wrongdoing, define wrong. Theres no evidence of legality. But thats not the same as wrongdoing. And i think that were in the
Climate Crisis<\/a>, we were in a
Climate Crisis<\/a> during the obama years, the obama biden presidency was all about natural gas, their interest in ukraine was about increasing natural gas production. And the fact that the standing
Vice President<\/a> son would be on the board of an
Energy Company<\/a> of any kind,
Natural Gas Company<\/a> getting 50000 a year is a fossil fuel nepotism that is not good for politics or the planet and i think we need a muchth cleaner break with this kind of i think after the 2016 election, the
New York Times<\/a> asked me too write to respond to the claim that hillarys loss that no woman could be presiden and adjusting there were a lot of women who took it very personally in one of my going to tell my daughters, does this mean the
United States<\/a> is too misogynist to ever have a woman. And i wrote an article making the argument that i do not think that is what we should take from the 2016 election because i feel that it was to compromise a candidate on a lot of fronts to run as hard as she needed to run. One ofhi the things in which trp was vulnerable was that he had multiple women accusing him of sexual misconduct. In her lewd curtain was not able to go after him on that because shes to compromise because of bill clinton. That was one reason among many others she lost the election. The point is, her hands were tied behind her back because of her own compromises. I would say one of those things that trump is most vulnerable is his own feeling and the nepotism in his own family which made not be illegal but improper and flies in the face of him claiming he is standing up for work in america and all about those workers. Normal on having to deal with the various ways in which his family has profited from the presidency to ask yourself is joe biden a trusted messenger for that message and what were learning about undermining or are his hands tied behind his back in the way
Hillary Clinton<\/a> were tied behind her back on multiple fronts, you mention trade and other funds. We need a candidate whose hands are tied behind their backs. Please, dont make joe biden. I just would like to say that will go to frank from kentucky, your next. Id like to get back to what they were discussing what we were discussing aboutut fdr and the new deal because i didnt think they were aware of the
Economic Stabilization<\/a> board was run by the treasure he was a congressman who helped pass the 16th amendment and a lot of what accomplish could be used with article five. After he left the congress and the 16th amendment and became treasurer, the crash happened before fdr became president and the
Economic Stabilization<\/a> board was in response to the depression so after they got that stabilized, he went on to sit on the supreme court. They have had a long history because they are the largest neighbors and you would have to state speakers. U at was your final point . [inaudible] i think they wil i will treat ia comment. Joining from california thank gyou for waiting. Go ahead. Caller thank you. So, naomi mentioned that the power of corporations so i wanted to mention there is an amendment for the constitution to say corporations are not people with rights. A corporation is a useful device for organizing people and money and resources but it should be inbe the
Public Interest<\/a> firm to play aformed byan active governd corporate charter and since we have a government of the people supposedly come to corporations shoulthe corporationsshould serr than the other way around. So there is an
Organization Called<\/a> move to amend they have privileges which can be granted by law but they do not have the same inherent rights as people. Its a
Great Initiative<\/a> to recommend people check it out. I was aware of it and its a big piece of the puzzle in terms of having everything needed to change things as quickly as we need to. From north massachusetts, care in the afternoon. Good afternoon. You have very mind expanding programs and guests every single day. I share your last name so thats fun but its spelled a different way. Im a former poet laureate of my town and i wanted to know, i have a twopart question. I wanted to know if you ever write poetry, did poetry contribute anything to your writing in the past and how you started writing because many say they started with poetry before they went to pros. The other part is because of your canadian upbringing. I wonder if you think having your son the age of school do you have a value of
Canadian School<\/a> education over the
American Education<\/a>
Public Private<\/a> or charter it would like to know your opinion. I will hang up and listen on the air. Host can you stay on the line for a minute, are you with us . A guest i have to admit i did write some bad poetry before i started writing good. It was my first sort of writing passion but i havent done it in many years. It fit my team years very well. I appreciate it and one of the things i talk about what the
Green New Deal<\/a> should mean is the original new deal led to the funding for the arts including for poets and playwrights and novelists and painters and muralists and so on. This is good low carb and work we need to invest in bonds is putting up solar panels. There are a lot of green jobs i would say to the previous caller. I am living in the
United States<\/a> right now because im teaching at rutgers and we just moved a little more than a year ago so we experienced both the canadian public
School System<\/a> i and
American Public<\/a>
School System<\/a>. I think that it tricky because i would say that i dont the canadian public
School System<\/a> is a less unequal. There are discrepancies between the kind of public
School Education<\/a> that you get a there are differences and it follows the racialal fault lines and in schools in wealthier neighborhoods they tend to be better resourced and able to raiseey more money and so on. But that doesnt quite as unequal as it is in the
United States<\/a>. I felt very disloyal saying that, but for students and parents there are stronger tools to require they provide those supports and to be honest with you, people have their views of canada and i would be happy to talk about how much better off the
Health Care System<\/a> is, but when it comes to special needs, the u. S. Actually has us beat. Host whether or not they influence yourur writing and thinking, go ahead. Caller such an honor to join you today. Im very blessed i met you at cooper union years ago. I have a lot of ground to cover but basically i want to ask about your concept silencing in canada. The whole concept of fossil fuel that clamp down on environmental and the spirit of the unity at
Standing Rock<\/a> im asking you how can we call on the leaders especially in new york city, massachusetts and maine that wants to base their deals on the ethical cleansing of some of our indigenous neighbors. Based on a the situation im talking about the neighbors of the north and the ecosystem that has been cleansed by and how can su find a more
Sustainable Way<\/a> to offer them in all lives leave all to help them also lived in sustainability. We will get a response. Thank you for that. Guest the fossil fuel based economy meaning the people that have the dirty industries in their backyard, the highest cancer rate and admiration and bearing the toxic burden of the economy the resolution about the workers in the sectors maintaining their salary that huge numbers of jobs that will be estimated and building affordable green housing area to the economy teaching thats already low carbon that theres a lot of cleanup work that needs to be done. This isnt only true in any region where you have intensive fossil fuel extension but abandoned wealth and land and rehabilitation. Theres hundreds of thousandsdsf jobs that can be created just by getting those to pay for the mess that they created. The problem is they are not getting them to finance the cleanup theres plenty of work to be done and if we had this principle those need to be first in line but as i mentioned earlier, its part of the response to the
Climate Crisis<\/a> we know we need huge reforestation land of rehabilitation its on the model dispossessed people of their land where we create
National Parks<\/a> and
Indigenous People<\/a>s access to the land. And the indigenous leadership as a parthat part of the huge conservation work ahead. You get the last question from saint paul minnesota. Im wondering in 9 11 they stopped the airplanes from sliding out and it heated up a little bit so im wondering inet minnesota today the fall is coming earlier and the comment about even though its heating up and getting through is that going to affect plans . Guest i wish i really understood the question. Host getting colder earlier. Climate change has gone from being a future threat we talked about being worried about off and thinthe distance to somethit is impacting the lives of pretty much everybody now. Though in some cases its noticing the changes around the weather like this is a strange fall. Theyve lost massive infrastructure or on the west coast they are blanketed in wildfire and it was razed to the ground by this historic campfire so this is not an abstract issue you or far off in urgency and we are seeing this reflected in the polls and its a huge shift since i started writing about this. Americans are now ranking the concern that the to at the top e concerns alongside of healthcare. Let me go back to the final question earlier influencing the thinking or shaping the questions and how you belong in this. Guest low, i need young people everywhere i go and i partnered with respect to her with the
Sunrise Movement<\/a> which is a
Youth Climate Justice Movement<\/a> that has been demanding a
Green New Deal<\/a> and everywhere i go i have a private meeting with them before i do my event. They are worried about everything from whether it makes sense to be going to college, they are so uncertain about the future and whether they should have kids and things like this because they are concerned about what the future might hold. I think that they are living with so much about such a sense of insecurity about the broad existential sense o of is therea future at all and we are not taking this serious and their rights to the future and being in contact with them is what fuels me. Host the works including no logo, no it is not enough. The shock doctrine and on fire. Thanks for joining us on cspan2 book tv. It was a pleasure. It","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia803102.us.archive.org\/13\/items\/CSPAN2_20191112_021600_In_Depth_Naomi_Klein\/CSPAN2_20191112_021600_In_Depth_Naomi_Klein.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20191112_021600_In_Depth_Naomi_Klein_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240716T12:35:10+00:00"}