Your book we are going to cover a lot of ground beef eating inside of communist china is thrived for global supremacy. First of all, why did you decide to write a book . Guest this is my eighth book ended 2000, i wrote a book called the china threat and it was amazing in that it predicted the emergence of a major threat posed by communist china. Ever since i wrote the book i tried to do another book and every publisher that i approached sadly well not write a single topic that you can have chapters. But we wont have a single topic. Host why was that . Guest i really dont know. It was their interest or concern about whether they would sell. Finally i dug into it and i said its time to do another book on the threat from china as it is becoming greater than it was way back when it was published. Host your book is very timely. Let me ask you about this title. Its defeating the sky then you go into the global supremacy. The second half is very clear and understandable. What is this and where does that come from . They are steeped in ancient strategy and many people know of the tamest strategist who comes from the states here 400 to 200 bc. Theres also a book called the 36 strategies whose author isnt quite clear that its a compendium of military strategies that would allow a weaker power to defeat a stronger power which is beijings main goal today. The third strategy is to cross the ocean and its meaning goes back to the legend that is the other of one of the generals wanted the emperor to go to war with other neighboring province and was reluctant so the general arranged for dinner at the home of a wealthy peasants and when the emperor arrived, he stepped into the house until it moved. He realized that it wasnt the house after all. It turned out to have been a boat so the emperor was then sailing on his way and went to the general to this neighboring province and she had to decide to go to war with the province return home and he decided to go to war. The point is that the general even you have to deceive the sky. The chinese legend the sky is the emperor and the emperor is considered a godlike figure so even to deceive god to achieve your objectives. To me this is exactly the strategy of the Chinese Communist party in beijing are using today. Specifically directed at the United States. Host i was very struck by the fact that you dedicated the book to the Chinese People. Before we go into the content and u. S. Policy towards china, tell us why you dedicated the book to the Chinese People. Host guest i think they need to be liberated from this, the horrors of the communist regime. We dont i remember doing a debate in new york city many years ago and it was whether china was a threat and on the side that said china wasnt a threat was a businessman who came up to me afterwards and said ive been doing business in china for 20 years and ive never met a communist. And i was shocked and i said well, you should visit the Peoples Liberation army museum in beijing which ive done in the past, and there you will see all the Founding Fathers of communism and thats even stalin, angles, marks. See, its really i think important to understand this aspect that this regime is going after global supremacy in a way that it had not done in the past. Host if you were in beijing today before the audience and it was mentioned that you dedicated a book to them, what would you say to them exactly . There is a big mess in china that the Chinese Party is one with the people. Remember a chinese kernel came to visit the the Washington Times many years ago and said my beef isnt with the Chinese People it is with the communist party of china and he said no there is no difference between the communist party of china and the people. That is a huge lie. 1. 4 billion people are enslaved under this system. There are as many as 93 million communist partys. For the most part, the people of china do not want that system. They taste a little bit of prosperity mainly in the mainland cities. They tasted a little bit of freedom and many of them traveled to the United States and so i really felt i wanted to dedicated to freeindedicate thee Chinese People from the communist party of china. At the beginning of the book, you go into how we got it wrong. In particular, you site back in 1999 dot the Defense IntelligenceAgency Issued a report, and basically that report minimized that china was a threat. But then you juxtapose that with some 20 years later you basically indicate that the Army Lieutenant general Robert Ashley had in fact indicated that communist ideology has not changed at all as a motivating force for chinas ruler, and basically the report that was issued then really documented how and why china is a threat. In fact, one data point that really struck me was the 600 billion annually in stolen technologies and intellectual properties. Rather substantial. So, how did we get it wrong . What was happening in 1999 and then why 20 years later it changed . Guest sure. I like to tell the story that goes back to the late 90s i was writing a story and at that time the pentagon was more press friendly and they would give background briefings so i went and they gave me a background briefing which was fairly vanilla in terms of what they have to say. But at the end of the briefing a colonel came in and said the general would like to see you. The general was the director and he sat at the end of the table and told me that china was not a threat. And i was very surprised. I would expect that kind of my question to him was what you think that and he said basically because of their statement. And this was astounding to me. I could understand that for policy officials who want to spend a reporter or even civilian intelligence people, but for the top of the three Intelligence Officer to say that this Nuclear Armed communist dictatorship which has missiles capable of hitting the cities is not a threat, i really felt deeply that there was a deception operation underway. Fast forward a couple of years later and we were revealed in beit revealed in one of my earlier books that one of the top analysts at the dia turned out to be a chinese spy passing information. So i believe that it was chinas penetration of them at the time who was giving this false information. General ashley, the current director has obviously taken a major shift and that is a reflection of overall Trump Administration policies. It made a tectonic shift in policy towards china and identifying it as a strategic competitor and that is still going through the government bureaucracy right now. Host lets me pick up on that with the advent of the Trump Administration. In fact, back in december of 2017, 2017 it was when the National Security strategy was released it does state both russia and china are competitors but you also define china not only as a strategic competitor but also a threat, and you document that in the buck. The elaborate a little bit more on that. Sure. The first step in finding solutions, whether its for policies or anything else is to identify the threat. Without understanding that, we will never be able to solve the problem of china. So, i looked at this and said what is it that makes up the threat from china, and i spent a lot of time looking at the chinese ideology. I loo look at their weapon syst, their intelligence operations, their influence obligations under the financial warfare, and its quite an impressive array of threats. In my view, it is an existential threat unlike those faced by the United States in any time in its history. That there was another dimension and that is in the Trump Administration, the link has been made between american National Security and the issue of Economic Security, and that is a centerpiece that has been developed. To some extent you could argue some of that has been there but in terms of the approach, its very hard hitting and its really having a significant impact. Particularly at a time when china itself has been confronted with its own economic woes. So, wouldnt you add that its not only in the military component, not only digital cover influence, but also the economic dimension that is absolutely essential here . Guest entirely. I have a chapter on chinese economic warfare, but before i get into that, i wanted to point out about this idea of the multifaceted threat from china. The reason that it has become worse is that we, the United States has been engaged in what i described as a 30 to 40 year gamble, strategic gamble and that is it began under Henry Kissinger when weve realigned with beijing against moscow during the cold war and it was designed to basically help defeat the soviet union. In the u. S. At the time bail out the struggling communist party of china. After the fall of the berlin wall and the collapse of the soviet union in december of 91, there was never a reevaluation, so the engagement policy with china went on kind of autopilot, and it was never reevaluated and it became this great legacy policy that we have to continue. And that really has been enormously damaging. For example, what we get one i think which is the most concrete example. Engagement. Through several administrations both republican and pathetic that during the administration of bill clinton is kind of reached the high point, and at that point, bill clinton allowed our National Weapons laboratories, the Nuclear Laboratories to have exchanges with china. Within a few short years of those exchanges, the cia issued a conclusion that through espionage, china had to maintain secrets on every deployed warhead in the u. S. Arsenal. That loss of secrets which has never been fully resolved by our investigative agencies that its clear that happened was compounded when the chinese spread Warhead Technology to pakistan. Then through the Nuclear Supplier network they proliferated that Nuclear Technology to north korea, iran, syria and libya and we found this out in 2003 when we took them libyan Nuclear Program and among the documents turned over to the investigators were chinese language documents on how to design a small warhead missile. I cant think of a greater damage to our security and Global Security than this unfettered engagement that didnt understand the nature of the threat from china. Host a rather substantial point that you are making con dive into the economic window as i was asking. Just develop that developed th, because that particular piece, i mean, you made it very clear the kind of threat that is posed getting the kind of espionage activities taking place, but also how is the economic instrument being wielded in advancing their own agenda . Guest if he arrives from the fact that they are trying to use their economic power to dismiss the United States and they are doing this through several ways. Let me first touch on the trump shift in policy. What President Trump has done more than any other president has outlined the u. S. National security with Economic Security and that has filtered throughout the entire government whether it is more enforcement, intelligence, pentagon today everyone is looking at the chinese economic threat. And as you mentioned, the white house was very successful in highlighting this threat. Threat. They issued a report with a stunning title called chinas economic aggression, and there was a huge policy fight with the bureaucrats saying we cant say economic aggression. But when you read the report, you understand why and that is where they determined based on the estimates that between 250 billion to 600 billion annually in American Intellectual property and technology has been stolen by china, no nation can survive especially a nation that is so heavily reliant on its technology and innovation with that kind of theft. So, getting back to the soviet cold war analogy, as you well remember back in the Reagan Administration, the Reagan Administration did something unique towards the soviet union. They basically said we are going to block western technology to moscow, and was a major contracting doctor in the demise of the soviet union. Trump is basically doing a similar thing towards china. Hes going and saying okay, lets see how great the chinese economic miracle is as American Technology is blocked off and so there has been an unprecedented level of policies designed to prevent this flow of technology. And in fact, i point out in the book that this policy got its launch in very early 2017 during the trump tower meeting with the president , newly elected president where he met with the top executives from silicon valley, and they are all to a person their main concern was how do we stop the flow of the american knowhow to china and so that is kind of where its begun. Do you feel chinas predatory economic policies will be thwarted as a result of this particular policy approach . Do you see it having the kind of impact that it should . Guest im seeing it very much so. If the financial warfare chapter i point out in addition to the terrorists that have been posed by the Trump Administration, which are having an impact, china has different attacks and they are going after different american markets. Through those investments to raise money as well as to influence policy. Take for example the investments by the california personnel were Retirement Fund in chinese companies. Those funds could then say dont sanction china because our Retirement Funds are invested and this is happening on a large scale. Im happy to say the administration with in the past week have announced that they are going to take steps to try to curb this very unregulated Capital Markets which in the United States is an unprecedented leader in all Capital Markets. Markets. And the administration has been quite vigilant on this issue and the negotiators are also have those goals and objectives in correcting these predatory actions as a part of the negotiations. I mean, robert, dave mentioned are at the forefront of it. Who is she . The chinese leader . What are the goals and objectives . Guest up until the regions of power that took place in 2012 and 2013, the chinese strategy for the world again they watched closelclosely and saw the collaf the soviet union and so their idea was lets be friends with the United States, so the main deception was they were not communists were a threat. The director told me as far back as 99 they are not a threat. And the reason for that is the policy was by our time and build our capabilities. That has changed dramatically. Hes announced his goal is the chinese dream and the chinese dream in my view is the communist party of china nightmare and this is where china is seeking to take its rightful place as the sole superpower in the world, so its not just that they are spreading their own power and communist system and predatory lending practices through the belt Road Initiative, but it also means that in order for them to achieve that, they have to go after the United States. States. They have to weaken their main enemy, the United States and there we see the unfettered policy of china to send the opioid fentanyl into the United States to exacerbate the tens of thousands of deaths related to the crisis. Host isnt it true that he has striving and has strived rather successfully in solidifying his own power base . Used a mac through the vote if you will which basically says he is the leader for life. He also has been that even in articulating the power of the communist party. He talks about the revitalization of the communist party. Do you see him in any capacity as being vulnerable plaques guest he has consolidated power since 2012 through a massive purge that has been carried out under the auspices of anticorruption. But in fact, it is a cover for the power consolidation. And hes instituted an unprecedented purge not just a midlevel officials or lowlevel officials, but some of the most senior officials of the communist party. Anyone perceived as a rival and in the pla. Anyone perceived as a potential rival is being eliminated. This has created great instability within china because the way chinas party, communist party is structured is very much like a group of mafia families where each has an outreach and network and so by purging some of these families, is creating some type of internal opposition to him. That said, he has strengthened the internal Security Apparatus in china which is mainly the ministry of Public Security. There are numerous Chinese Security organizations, security and intelligence organizations. All of them modeled after the soviet kgb which is again a Political Police and Intelligence Service that serves a dual function as both intellige